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Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Just wanna get this new thread started. so that we're not wading through 150 pages of old stuff. So Sisters have our new codex now, over all I'd say we came out well. it's not perfect but I'm liking the codex. so discuss thoughts and views on the codex. what's our best units? What's the least intreasting/useful. Personally I think standard Celestian Squads are pretty "why bother" now. as Dominion squads are a better "elite variation of standard sisters" and Sacrescants are the better bodyguard unit.


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress




Lammia's list of unit hot takes:

HQ:

Morvenn Vahl - The Sister's Surpreme Commander is what I'd expect from a High Lord of Terra. I'm not fully convinced she's as impactful for Sisters as she may seem. Needs to see play.

Canoness - Is good. You'll be hard pressed to see taking one as a waste. Stick a Warlord and/or Relic on her for real value.

Palatine - Less of a beat stick than Canoness, useful aura. Worth taking.

Junith Erutia - Hard pressed to see when I would want take her, even in OoOML.

Missionary - Good source of War Hymn and can take another for when War Hymn isn't useful/available.

Celestine & Geminae Superia - Left to the realm of harassing stick but potentually very annoying. We will see.

Triumph of Saint Katherine- improved as a character, but lost worth in utility. Not great for a utility character. Miss.

Ephrael Stern & Kyganil of the Bloody Tears - Interesting, but not adding much new. Take or leave.

Troops:

Battle Sister Squad - Options nerfed. Still troops.

Elites:

Aestred Thurga & Agathae Dolan - Crusade twins.

Imagifier - The hit to Tale of the Stoic they tool in this Codex hurt, but that means you can take or leave them.

Dialogus - Has some utility, Good Priest. (More hymn options)

Preacher - Cheap priest. No hymn options.

Celestian Squad - backfield bodyguards.

Celestian Sacresants - Melee bodyguards. Useful for getting stuck in with characters.

Hospitaller - Not super useful, but a 6+++ aura for infantry if you want that.

Dogmata - Turtle. Good priest with good utility and can help in melee, but hurts my fluff mind.

Paragon Warsuits - looks like it'll be hurt by most things. Needs testing. Probably best with Mortifiers and Pen. Engines.

Repentia Superior - worth considering with Repentia.

Sisters Repentia - Good source of Miracle Dice and good 'cruise missile' melee unit.

Crusaders - Low cost actions.

Arco-flagellants - Effective anti-horde Melee

Death Cult Assassains - Low cost actions.

Fast Attack:

Dominion Squad - Great source of special weapon goodness. Not convinced Holy Vanguard is as good as people seem to think.

Seraphim Squad - Zephyrim are probably more useful.

Zephrim Squad - More expensive but probably more useful jetpack troops.

Heavy Support

Retributor Squad - I guess they make the cut as a Multi-Melta squad? Idk...

Mortifiers - Likely remain a shooting/countercharge of out top lists

Penitent Engines - Charging distraction Carnifex for Mortifier/Warsuit lists?

Exocist - Lame duck tank.

Castigator - Shiny and new lame duck tank.

Dedicated Transports:

Sororitas Rhino - Useful metal box.

Immolator - Lame duck metal box.

Fortification:

Battle Sanctum - Useful, if you can deploy it.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 04:25:44


   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




I like Lammia's format so I'm going to shamelessly copy it.

Morvenn: Good, power overblown. Nothing she can buff is scary. Make sure you kill your opponents anti-tank before she tries to Yolo it.

Celestine: Great melee beatstick and irritating to kill. Indomitable being her warlord trait makes her an excellent warlord in non-morven lists.

Stern: Diet Celestine

Junith: Maybe? Reroll hits is good and cover could be sweet, if difficult to use.

Canoness: New Super Canoness abilities mostly gimmicks, though definite niches for Bloody Rose with Word and Blade of Admonition or Rapturous Blows and Mantle. ROO mostly replaced by Morvenn.

Palantine: Fine. Generally only an option in non-Morven lists though.

Missionary: Doggak preacher. Pass. Leadership aura is a joke.

Triumph: Crap. Drop it 70pts and I'd take it for the extra dice and hide it in a corner. Otherwise useless.

Battle Sisters: Losing double stormbolters hurts, 20 blobs aren't relevant. Needs a 1ppm drop now in my opinion.

Dialogus: Best Sororitas Priest. Modifying miracle dice is sweet.

Dogmata: Don't care about obsec. Actions ability is made irrelevant by Crusaders/Deathcults. Take only if you're trying multiple large BSS squads.

Repentia Superiors: Best buff character for repentia. If you want a buff character, take her.

Imagifier: Really only useful for Sacresants and Zephyrim. Best option when looking to buff a Canoness and her escort.

Preacher: Probably best overall buff character just because he does what he's supposed to and is cheap.

Arcos: Take if you go against a lot of Eldar or aren't bloody rose. Celestine still gives them an invul, for what that's worth.

Deathcults/Crusaders: They do actions for cheap. This is valuable.

Repentia: Still great. Loss of Run and Charge means less margin for error but their ceiling actually got higher with new TTD and upgraded repentia superior completely replacing Imagifiers. Fight when they die makes them almost impossible to shift by melee if you can keep them out of LoS.

Celestians: If you want shooting escorts for characters take Dominions, if you want melee take Sacresants, if you want something that tries to do both and succeeds at neither...stop wanting that.

Sacresants: Best escort for Canonesses/Palantines in Bloody Rose. Also potential footslog niche. Stay with repentia if you want raw combat power though.

Paragons: If they drop 10ppm and any other shooting vehicle becomes useful, they might be good. Until then, underwhelming.

Hospitaller: Some utility for bringing back retributor multimeltas. Mandatory warlord if doing more than 1 big Battle Sister blob.

Dominions: Scouting transports is neat. If the immolator drops 20-30pts they'll be fierce. As it stands, solid stormbolter platform, if you want meltas just take retributors.

Seraphim: Third biggest loser in the new dex. Deadly descent ministorum flamers is...okay. Argent Shroud inferno pistols technically has the same range as dominions with meltas if they don't scout. Maybe a nich for a small unit as essentially a midgame landmine.

Zephyrim: Meh. Still only work in bloody rose, require even more resources than they used to. Higher ceiling but are you really going to spend 6CP and 2 MD on one charge? If they drop another point or two they might be good as a flight of the valkyries character escort.

Retributors: Took tons of nerfs. Still by far the best mid-long range shooting option. Probably worth an Argent Shroud Patrol for 2 units of these in 90% of lists. Heavy flamer options surprisingly viable now, especially with ignores cover. If you put them in a transport have them share with a fiver of battle sisters so they can take the casualties.

Mortifiers: Lost some stuff, gained some stuff. Zealot makes the buzz-blades scary in melee. Loss of run and charge/shoot make them a lot slower. Probably still really good in mono-non-bloody rose lists as your token melee. Take with Rhinos to confuse anti-tank.

Pengines: Only slightly different than mortifiers now. More melee focused but does less melee damage. Probably still take mortifiers but more of an option than they were.

Exorcist: Take one if you want to be a hipster. Take 2 if you just hate winning.

Castigators: LOL, NOPE.

Immolator: Can't even die right anymore.

Rhino: Need a Rhino? This is that.

Sanctum: Personally think obscuring is nerf. Only unit in the army that requires a call to your TO to reasonably take.

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Made in au
Repentia Mistress




ERJAK wrote:


Immolator: Can't even die right anymore.
Ugh... I totally missed that.

Lame.

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Punisher's first pass hot takes.

HQ:

Morvenn Vahl - Tier S: She's extremely good, tremendous buffs and at a price point where you should be able to fit her in any list. I'd expect almost every list to include her, she will likely be nerfed.

Canoness - Tier A: Still just a great cheap HQ to give re-rolls or be a beat stick. New options reduce how points effective she is but add new playstyles. Personally I'm a fan of the fight last aura that can turn off invulns.

Palatine - Tier B+: Provides a decent wound re-roll aura and is cheap. Probably no real need to take her though as Vahl's buff overlaps and well, you're taking Vahl already.

Junith Erutia - Tier C: Lost her wound re-roll aura.. Difficult to rate this one, will depend on how useful the mobile cover ability turns out. Order locked to OML so might be a while till we see enough results/testing to see if there is anything worthwhile here. 2 str6 Heavy flamers is nothing to scoff at though.

Missionary - Tier B: Cheap hq option, can provide war hymns. Useful for filling out HQ slots in detachments when mixing orders and you need/want a priest. Limited Hymn options though

Celestine & Geminae Superia - Tier B+: Great harassment unit that is difficult to kill. Has good damage output so your opponent won't want to ignore her, but with her action ability definitely demands a strong response to kill. Only issue is this unit gives up 9 assassinate points.. So your opponent will likely max that.

Triumph of Saint Katherine - Tier B: Lost a lot of utility, still an interesting choice though. Probably too expensive for what buffs she now gives though. Just take Vahl.

Ephrael Stern & Kyganil of the Bloody Tears - Tier B: Not really much here positive or negative. It's an Hq option, will perform well in close combat and has a "smite". Worth trying if you want, they won't make or break your list.


Troops:

Battle Sister Squad - Tier A: Still good, lost a weapon for msu builds but gained the ability to horde it up. Will likely see play as 5 man units or 20 man blobs and not much in between. Argent Shroud advance and shoot seems very useful for 5 man multi-melta girls, storm bolter strat and trans human seem great for 20 man blobs.

Elites:

Aestred Thurga & Agathae Dolan - Tier C: Crusade unit, seems a little off with half the rules not seeming to matter. Ability to give all sacred rites is interesting though, only once per battle but the rites are pretty great this edition.

Imagifier - Tier C-: Doesn't seem great I'd generally pass on this one.

Dialogus - Tier A: Maybe the best priest, access to all hymn options and can modify miracle dice which is important now that they are less plentiful.

Preacher - Tier A-: Dirt cheap priest for war hymn. If you want war hymn this guy gets you there and you won't pay a penny more than war hymn is worth.

Celestian Squad - Tier C: Not a terrible unit in a vacuum, but in reality your paying a premium for a unit that is going to shoot worse than other shooting options and fight worse than other combat options. I'd pass on them but they are a fine TAC option in a make my army less focused mindset.

Celestian Sacresants - Tier B+/A-: Now here is a bodyguard unit, has good combat potential, survivability and can heroically intervene to save characters or other units from combat. Weapon options likely depend on what order you are playing.

Hospitaller - Tier C: Discount apothecary, not super relevant for sisters. If you want a 6+++ she does that well, and for a CP she can revive d3 cheap sister models.

Dogmata - Tier A: In the running for the best priest(also most expensive). Granting obsec or double obsec is great, actions not failing while shooting is nice, has all hymn options and is surprisingly relevant in combat.

Paragon Warsuits - Tier F/D-: The models look cool.. I mean I guess if your meta doesn't include d3+3 damage weapons they might be ok(I don't think that meta exists currently). Simply far too expensive for a unit that dies to anti tank weapons at an alarming rate. Just take mortifiers/P.Engines if considering these girls.

Repentia Superior - Tier B-: Actually looks pretty good now that repentia took a nerf, as she helps missile them out into the enemy.

Sisters Repentia - Tier A-: Still a great unit, they are significantly slower now though with the lose of a strat for advance and charge and with a shorter supply of miracle dice long bomb charges are more difficult. Speaking of a shorter supply of miracle dice the die you get from losing this squad is now more relevant. Still the best combat unit in the codex.

Crusaders - Tier B: Cheap action monkey, you'll usually be happy running 1 or 2 squads.

Arco-flagellants - Tier B+/A-: Great anti horde option.

Death Cult Assassains - Tier B: Cheap action monkey, competes with crusaders.

Fast Attack:

Dominion Squad - Tier A: Great special weapon unit, has the ability to scout up a transport which allows them to ferry a slower squad into a better position from their shared rhino. Good choice for storm bolters and the blessed bolts strat.

Seraphim Squad - Tier A-: Great unit, very useful for "deploy scramblers" secondary. Hand flamer buff to str4 makes these girls hit hard with the descent strat. Probably best to ignore the inferno pistol.

Zephrim Squad - Tier B+: Good in a bloody rose order, competes with strong FA options in Doms and Seraphim though.

Heavy Support

Retributor Squad - Tier C+: Got hit very hard by nerfs. Still good in argent shroud for advance and shoot. Mere shadows of their former selves, if you need a melta squad they can still get the job done. Flamer option is interesting as they ignore cover now.

Mortifiers - Tier A: It's just a great all around unit, good shooting and good melee. Buzz blades are more appealing now that they have zealot and the flail got nerfed hard.

Penitent Engines - Tier A-: An alternative for when you don't want heavy bolter mortifiers as they are slightly cheaper and can advance and charge.

Exocist - Tier C(for the first one)/D-(for the second): I don't even.. Strat makes one worth considering, but having to pay a 1cp tax every time it shoots is well.. punishing. Don't take a second, they both can't use the strat.
EDIT: Didn't realize the strat costs 2cp, rating drops to C-/D+ for the first one. 2 cp will drain you pretty quickly and sisters have a lot of good/interesting strats.

Castigator - Tier D: It's a tank, decent gun options. Problem is you'll only get to fire it once with it's defensive profile.

Dedicated Transports:

Sororitas Rhino - Tier B: If you need a transport, here it is.

Immolator - Tier C-/D+: You're paying a premium for this transport. I'm not sure why, but you sure as hell are paying it.

Fortification:

Battle Sanctum - Tier ?: I don't know how you fit it on the battlefield..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/19 14:09:11


 Psienesis wrote:
While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




@Punisher: New Devastating refrain is 2CP. (which is obscene)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/19 14:02:59


2500pts
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3000


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





ERJAK wrote:
@Punisher: New Devastating refrain is 2CP. (which is obscene)


Yikes didn't realize that, just assumed it was 1 for what it did..

 Psienesis wrote:
While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Punisher wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
@Punisher: New Devastating refrain is 2CP. (which is obscene)


Yikes didn't realize that, just assumed it was 1 for what it did..


So did everyone who doesn't work at GW.

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Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

ZergSmasher's hot takes on unit tiers (will post later with my thoughts on relics, strats, and other stuff):

Morvenn Vahl: S Tier: This lady is extremely good; basically an auto-include for competitive play, at least until the inevitable nerf. 260 points is a lot, but for what she does, it's a complete steal.

Canoness: A Tier: As our Captain-equivalent, these are relevant, even in lists with Vahl in them. They make good caddies for relics such as Benificence or the Blade of Ellynor, and can take upgrades to give themselves even more utility (at a points premium that may or may not be worth it).

Palatine: B Tier: Our Lieutenant-equivalent. Not as customizable as a Canoness in terms of loadout, but can take the extra blessings (not that you would want to take those on a Palatine instead of an actual Canoness).

Junith Eruita: B Tier: Junie B. Jones is only useful in Our Martyred Lady, and probably a good buy in those lists. The jury is out as to whether that Order is any good though. The model is badass!

Missionary: B Tier: Cheaper HQ option than a Canoness, and less redundant if you are running Vahl. Also good for taking a Priest that isn't in the crowded Elites slot, and more Hymn options than a Preacher.

Celestine: A Tier: Very good brawler character unit, although she does, as mentioned above, give up a fair few victory points if she does get dirt-napped. Most of the time your opponent has to kill her twice and that isn't easy though, so I still think she's awesome, particulary to give good melee capability to a non-Bloody Rose list.

Triumph of Saint Katherine: C-Tier: The buffs are nice, but probably not worth the points. There might be a way to build around it, but I'm not sure it's optimal. Really cool model!

Ephrael Stern & Kyganil: B-Tier: Kind of fun, but honestly Celestine does the same job better. If you don't have the points for her, you could do worse than taking these two.

Battle Sister Squad: A-Tier: Still our only Troops choice, and they aren't bad for what they are, even if they lost the ability to take 2 specials on a unit of 5. They gained the ability to be taken in units of up to 20, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think the maxed blob of them is a trap. You have to activate the protective stratagem for them in your turn, so if you go second you're SOL, and they just aren't as lethal as other horde units in other armies. To me, they really shine in Argent Shroud MSU lists where each unit can take a Multi-melta for maximum efficiency on the AS conviction.

Aestred Thurga & Agathae Dolan: D-Tier: Probably fun in Crusade play, but I think they are a bit situational in normal competitive play.

Imagifier: B-Tier: Some lists can make good use of one of these, but they are definitely far from the auto-include that they were last edition. They have a nice relic to get the two buffs that matter.

Dialogus: A-Tier: This is the best Priest IMO, plus she can adjust a Miracle dice which is very nice.

Preacher: A-Tier: Cheapest Priest around, and surprisingly nasty with a Zealot's Vindictor. Great cheap source of War Hymn if that's all you want a Priest for.

Celestians: C-Tier: Suffers from the problem of being a "jack of all trades, master of none", as others have mentioned. I'm not convinced that they are worthless, just that they are "worth less" than other specialized units.

Celestian Sacresants: A-Tier: Honestly Heroic Intervention is a powerful ability on a brawler unit like this, and being able to bodyguard your characters is also very solid. Less killy than Repentia, but far more durable.

Hospitaller: B-Tier: Giving nearby Sisters a 6+++ is nothing to scoff at, and she can revive potentially expensive models, which will force your opponent to actually finish off units of Retributors or Sacresants to prevent this.

Dogmata: B-Tier: Very nice buffs and has Priest abilities, but she's as expensive as a tricked-out Canoness and doesn't fight as well. Certain builds can really make her shine however, so she's far from useless.

Paragon Warsuits: C-Tier: I think these are generally underrated; yes they are a tad on the fragile side for the points, but in a list with a lot of vehicular threats (Rhinos full of nasty units, Mortifiers, Pengines) they can probably be okay as they will soak up some punishment before biting it. I will admit that the current meta is kinda rough for them though. One trick that could be fun would be to give them 2 Multimeltas and a Heavy Flamer, plus Storm Bolters on the shoulders, and pop Holy Trinity on them.

Repentia Superior: C-Tier: She'd be better, but she and her charges have to be on the table rather than safe in a transport for her to actually use her buffs on Repentia. If footslogging Repentia can be made to work, she's groovy.

Sisters Repentia: A-Tier: Very killy and capable of significant trade-ups if used correctly, but less of an auto-include than they were previously. Probably bad in any Order that isn't Bloody Rose though.

Crusaders: B-Tier: Cheap action slaves that are decently durable for what they are. Not really good for much else.

Arco-flagellants: A-Tier: These are a great alternative to Repentia in a non-BR list; cast War Hymn on them and pop Extremis Trigger Word to really make hordes cry. They are actually more durable than Repentia too, due to having 2 wounds apiece. They don't kill big stuff as well as Repentia, but in a non-BR list you hopefully have more shooting to deal with those things.

Death Cult Assassins: B-Tier: More cheap action slaves; rather than being durable like Crusaders they always fight first, which won't be relevant all the time but is worth mentioning.

Dominion Squad: A-Tier: Probably the best Fast Attack option; as mentioned they can move up a Rhino that also has another unit inside, allowing you to get that unit downfield faster. They are good for using Storm Bolters (for Blessed Bolts) or Meltaguns (take a Combiflamer on the Superior and pop Holy Trinity) to engage various targets.

Seraphim Squad: C-Tier: Oh, how the mighty have fallen. The flamer ones could have niche uses in Ebon Chalice lists because of their stratagem, but other than that I don't rate them highly at all, and mostly that is because of the nerf of Deadly Descent. Too expensive to be action slaves IMO.

Zephyrim Squad: B-Tier: These are quite good, but I don't think I would run more than one unit. I like the Pennant option because with fewer Miracle dice around you might not get the auto-charge.

Retributor Squad: C-Tier: In Argent Shroud, I'd rate them A-Tier, but losing the ability to move and shoot without the penalty hurts bad. Heavy Flamers could be okay in non-AS lists though, so maybe some testing is required.

Mortifiers: A-Tier: Flails got nerfed, but I don't think that makes the buzzsaws an auto-take. They are still more useful against hordes. Morties are still a really good ranged unit with Heavy Bolters and can switch to a brawler role if the enemy gets close, making them very versatile.

Penitent Engines: A-Tier: Not better or worse than Mortifiers, just different. Advance and charge is a good ability to have in the back pocket, but don't give up your flamer shooting if you don't have to.

Exorcist: D-Tier: Sadly a shadow of its former self. There could be an edge case for a single one using Devastating Refrain to shoot out of LOS, but honestly that's a lot of CP it'll eat up. It's guns are still fine, but the durability just isn't there anymore, which is a problem all tanks face in the current competitive meta.

Castigator: D-Tier: Its guns are solid, but it just isn't worth the points due to its low durability and the prevalence of weapons like meltas and Dark Lances.

Rhino: B-Tier: This is our standard metal bawks. Does what it says on the tin. Plenty of units can benefit from these, but an all-footslogging list could probably work too, so they are not quite an auto-include.

Immolator: F-Tier: Very, very overpriced, even more so than the tanks IMO. Not sure why GW doesn't want us to buy their expensive kit for this model, but here we are.

Battle Sanctum: F-Tier: Even if you can fit it on the table, it's probably not worth taking over more actual units or buff characters.

Overall we have a pretty nice selection of units, with very few absolute stinkers.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 29 | Current main painting project: Nazgul
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 ZergSmasher wrote:
ZergSmasher's hot takes on unit tiers (will post later with my thoughts on relics, strats, and other stuff):
Dominion Squad: A-Tier: Probably the best Fast Attack option; as mentioned they can move up a Rhino that also has another unit inside, allowing you to get that unit downfield faster. They are good for using Storm Bolters (for Blessed Bolts) or Meltaguns (take a Combiflamer on the Superior and pop Holy Trinity) to engage various targets.

Paragon Warsuits: C-Tier: I think these are generally underrated; yes they are a tad on the fragile side for the points, but in a list with a lot of vehicular threats (Rhinos full of nasty units, Mortifiers, Pengines) they can probably be okay as they will soak up some punishment before biting it. I will admit that the current meta is kinda rough for them though. One trick that could be fun would be to give them 2 Multimeltas and a Heavy Flamer, plus Storm Bolters on the shoulders, and pop Holy Trinity on them.



This brings up a point that I think has gotten forgotten with the new Codex:

Holy Trinity is a terrible stratagem for meltas.
.

Doing what you suggested with Paragons, here's what the damage looks vs just taking 3 Multimeltas like assuming T5+(no benefit for meltas at T4) and high wounds (remember, to use HT at all means you'll be in Melta Range):

Holy Trinity is Bad T5 3+, T7 3+, T83+

Paragons 2MM, HF, SB(Trin) 15.01, 14.09,11.55
Paragons 3MM, SB(No Trin) 15.56, 15.56, 11.44

So against high wound targets, you're spending a CP to do less damage on anything below T8 and .11 extra damage against T8. Keep in mind also that this is DURING trinity. It's MUCH worse when you run out of CP. Also, the melta squad can split their damage against several targets, the HT squad MUST spend all shots on the same target. Even with the HF setup being 10pts cheaper, it's very bad.

Let's try normalizing against 3W models (i.e. wasting 2-6 on the melta roll).

Paragons 2MM, HF, SB(Trin) 9.45 8.54 7.10
Paragons 3MM, SB(No Trin) 8.89 8.89 6.44

So even wasting most of the melta's damage, you still only end up with a maximum of .65 damage against an UNBUFFED triple multimelta setup.

But this is assuming no invul you say? Well let's check out the same VS a 3 wound 4++

Paragons 2MM, HF, SB(Trin) 6.12 5.20 4.43
Paragons 3MM, SB(No Trin) 4.89 4.89 3.44

Even in an almost ideal case, the absolute most benefit you get from using HT instead of just bring the correct weapons is 1.2 wounds. Even trying to find the bright side (well it's a 28% increase against T8 4++!) requires the unit you're shooting at to be no more than 3 wounds. Against an actual Knight, the bonus is only 12% and if you shoot from 13+ Inches away, you're actually losing 33%. You'd have to be shooting literally at the new T5 orks with multimeltas before the extra DPS from the 3rd multimelta is signficantly less than suggested weapons with +1 to wound.

Melta Dominion squads get less than the benefit of a CP reroll when USING HT and lose damage when not using it vs 5 Meltas.

Flamers have an entirely different equation for a few different reasons. Flamers tend to shoot at lower wound targets (wasting Melta damage), lower save targets(wasting melta AP), and specifically with Multimeltas, wasted melta range. 4 Flamers and Combi-melta Doms see a 25.7% damage increase over 5 flamer doms, even when normalized against 1 wound models. For Retributors the numbers tend to be even better than that, especially if they have something like a pocket palantine to reroll 1s to wound when wounding marines on a 2+. Keep in mind though, that this means you can only fire at one squad, even with popping Cherubs.

Bolter squads tend to do so little damage (battle sisters) that holy trinity doesn't really matter or have better stratagems to use anyway (blessed bolts).

TLDR: Holy Trinity for Flamer loadouts, extra melta shot for melta loadouts.







This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 10:41:16


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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




I think people are undervaluing Retributors post changes. They were previously in the running for best unit in the game, so I get that it feels like they're C tier comparatively, but MM are still excellent and Retributors are still the best way to get them.

The ignore cover and +1 Flamer strength also work wonders for both of the other weapon options. I think they're actually better with Heavy bolters than before by a significant amount. I'm not sure that makes Bolter Retributors actually worth taking, but they're better at least.

I'd be interested to see the maths on a flamer squad with Holy Trinity would perform too. 3 CP for 36 auto hits is something to think about, especially with orks on the horizon. I mean, you're still doing 9 damage to a Leman Russ too, plus a stray melta shot.
   
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Confessor Of Sins




shabadoit wrote:
I think people are undervaluing Retributors post changes. They were previously in the running for best unit in the game, so I get that it feels like they're C tier comparatively, but MM are still excellent and Retributors are still the best way to get them.

The ignore cover and +1 Flamer strength also work wonders for both of the other weapon options. I think they're actually better with Heavy bolters than before by a significant amount. I'm not sure that makes Bolter Retributors actually worth taking, but they're better at least.

I'd be interested to see the maths on a flamer squad with Holy Trinity would perform too. 3 CP for 36 auto hits is something to think about, especially with orks on the horizon. I mean, you're still doing 9 damage to a Leman Russ too, plus a stray melta shot.


Personally, I don't see a way to avoid taking Multimelta Retributors. Even needing to spend 2CP on an Argent Shroud patrol, they're still by far our best shooting option. The only other anti-tank shooting we have (that doesn't ALSO require Argent Shroud) are Dominions and even technically having a 27" threat range turn one, they're still only 12" away from the enemy MAX when they shoot meltas.

Also the math on the HF rets goes as follows:

4HF, CM, Trinity, Max shots 3+T4: 16.93 3+T5: 16.93 3+T7: 10.94 3+T8: 10.55
4HF, CF, No Trin, Max shots 3+T4: 13.33 3+T5: 13.0 3+T7: 6.66 3+T8: 6.66

Average dice for Trinity kills an entire T5 Boyz squad in one round and only leaves 4 alive in the CF setup.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 11:17:59


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Regular Sister squads are a better source of MMs imho...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are't as good, but you can spread the MMs out

...

Though I guess AS patrol gets both

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 12:21:54


   
Made in us
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Lammia wrote:
Regular Sister squads are a better source of MMs imho...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are't as good, but you can spread the MMs out

...

Though I guess AS patrol gets both


If you're worried about squads getting their MMs sniped, retributors are still better. 2 MMs even at 5 models with 2 Cherubs. Ability to keep 2 MM and go up to 10 models for only 10 more points. Ignores cover (the good one that ignores both dense and light).

Even when taking an AS patrol/battalion I would still take at least 2 squads of rets before and THEN would start putting multimeltas on battle sisters.

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Did something change with Deadly Descent that made Inferno pistols not worthwhile?
   
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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Did something change with Deadly Descent that made Inferno pistols not worthwhile?


It no longer increases your range, so when you deepstrike in you have to be 9" away and the pistol range is only 6" so they can't fire the inferno pistols with the strat anymore.

 Psienesis wrote:
While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons
 
   
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Well shucks, that kind of ruins the point of Inferno pistol Seraphim doesn't it.
   
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 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Well shucks, that kind of ruins the point of Inferno pistol Seraphim doesn't it.


Sure does. Dropping Seraphim in general now is pretty terrible, honestly. Handflamers going to S4 gets wiped out by BR losing its pistol AP. It's not...terrible for trying to get ROD but honestly I just don't think seraphim are worth it out of deepstrike at all anymore.

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Argent Shroud Seraphim are still interesting, with the extra range and a reroll, but yeah, it feels really heavy handed. So much feels reactionary in the codex...
   
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shabadoit wrote:
Argent Shroud Seraphim are still interesting, with the extra range and a reroll, but yeah, it feels really heavy handed. So much feels reactionary in the codex...


Or just straight up out of touch. 90 for a Paragon with a multimelta? 160 for an explosion on treads? 150 for a transport that only ever transports things to the grave? 180pts for a tank that takes 2CP to shoot? Wacky.

Do they...do they not have multimeltas or dark lances at GW HQ?

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ERJAK wrote:
shabadoit wrote:
Argent Shroud Seraphim are still interesting, with the extra range and a reroll, but yeah, it feels really heavy handed. So much feels reactionary in the codex...


Or just straight up out of touch. 90 for a Paragon with a multimelta? 160 for an explosion on treads? 150 for a transport that only ever transports things to the grave? 180pts for a tank that takes 2CP to shoot? Wacky.

Do they...do they not have multimeltas or dark lances at GW HQ?

Of course they do, but GW has shown for a long time they prefer mixed arms army lists over going all in on any on strat. Playtesters should have (and probably did to be honest) catch the points issues. Hopefully this is a case of stuff being sent off for print before the points where finalized and we'll see an appropriate nudge.
   
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I think they've decided Sisters with Melta were a problem and have attempted to address it. It's super disappointing after the Admech and DE codexes es were so interesting, although the DE one feels like it was designed by someone with no objectivity when it comes to DE, so it's not a great comparison. People talk about Morvenn Vahl only having points as a way to balance her being an issue - the entire DE codex has a similar problem, it's good at everything and has no weaknesses. The release week reviews being so positive on that book are going to age terribly, it's a badly designed book. Worse than Sisters in my opinion. It's a really interesting book and the rules are lots of fun if you love DE, but the lack of restraint is straight up bad design. The Cult of Strife stuff is flat out broken (different book I know), and there's no clean way to fix that without killing other Wych Cults. It's all gravy and no drawback. It's terrible, terrible design.

Still, the Sisters book compares well to most of the 9th codexes I think, although you're railroaded into an infantry list if you care about being competitive.

That said, I'd like Battle Sisters to drop to 10 points. Or really 9.
Assuming ork boys stay at 8, and given the cost of Skitarii and Kabalites, I think 9 is fair. Why exactly are they 3 points more than a Skitarii or Kabalite warrior? Or perhaps more accurately, why are Skitarii and DE troops so cheap?

I absolutely feel like they'd decided to give the Exorcist ignore line of sight and then backed out too, without properly revisiting it afterwards. It's a shame because they could have given it and the Castigator really distinct roles.

Finally, giving core to all infantry, while great for us, was such a lazy design decision. It doesn't make sense in terms of lore and it limits the design space. Itd be cool if there was an order than gave core to Ministorum for example, except they already all have it for no good reason.

I think that dropping BSS would give more room for Celestians too. That said, I'd honestly rather the others got a 2 pt bump to bring them in line with other choices. They feel like they were priced with their 8th ed rules.

Complaints aside, I'm still happy enough with the book in terms of overall power level at least. Vehicles are a problem that need more than a codex to fix, so hopefully we'll see something further down the line for that, and there are still some great combos. I've said before that if we'd been forced to wait for profile changes like DG, DE and Admech were then we'd be a lot more positive about the book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 18:51:35


 
   
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We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

Orkz are already good at killing T3 infantry before the new book likely boosts them by a good amount. DE and Admech waste through battle sisters even with 20 blobs and Transhuman.

If CWE and CSM go anywhere near the direction DE and C:SM went, then our various Rhino Rush strats will often result in expensive melee infantry sitting in 3-6 very expensive craters first turn in a lot of games.

We don't really have anything particularly resilient or difficult to deal with that isn't an absurdly expensive melee character. We're not particularly fast and have very few deployment shenanigans so objective hopping isn't really a thing we can excel at. We really don't have ANY long range shooting, especially turn 1.

As numbers creep up and more Drukhari style books come out I feel like we'll fall farther, faster than armies like DA and DG who can still rely on gimmick lists.

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ERJAK wrote:
We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

Orkz are already good at killing T3 infantry before the new book likely boosts them by a good amount. DE and Admech waste through battle sisters even with 20 blobs and Transhuman.

If CWE and CSM go anywhere near the direction DE and C:SM went, then our various Rhino Rush strats will often result in expensive melee infantry sitting in 3-6 very expensive craters first turn in a lot of games.

We don't really have anything particularly resilient or difficult to deal with that isn't an absurdly expensive melee character. We're not particularly fast and have very few deployment shenanigans so objective hopping isn't really a thing we can excel at. We really don't have ANY long range shooting, especially turn 1.

As numbers creep up and more Drukhari style books come out I feel like we'll fall farther, faster than armies like DA and DG who can still rely on gimmick lists.
The more I think about it, the more I think Genestealer catapult w/ Superior is how to play Repentia. Combined with Pen. Engines to get board control quickly where we want it.

There's some objective play with Seraphim and Angelic Ascent, but I don't think them good enough to pull off the signposted move.

   
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Lammia wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

Orkz are already good at killing T3 infantry before the new book likely boosts them by a good amount. DE and Admech waste through battle sisters even with 20 blobs and Transhuman.

If CWE and CSM go anywhere near the direction DE and C:SM went, then our various Rhino Rush strats will often result in expensive melee infantry sitting in 3-6 very expensive craters first turn in a lot of games.

We don't really have anything particularly resilient or difficult to deal with that isn't an absurdly expensive melee character. We're not particularly fast and have very few deployment shenanigans so objective hopping isn't really a thing we can excel at. We really don't have ANY long range shooting, especially turn 1.

As numbers creep up and more Drukhari style books come out I feel like we'll fall farther, faster than armies like DA and DG who can still rely on gimmick lists.
The more I think about it, the more I think Genestealer catapult w/ Superior is how to play Repentia. Combined with Pen. Engines to get board control quickly where we want it.

There's some objective play with Seraphim and Angelic Ascent, but I don't think them good enough to pull off the signposted move.

I've been trying to think about that as well. The trouble is keeping Repentia alive long enough to do the catapult thing. You'd almost require at least having a character with Indomitable Belief near them on turn 1 in case they get targeted early (probably by non-LOS weapons as you hopefully start them out of sight!). One thing I missed until I was rereading my codex a few minutes ago is that the Superior's ability to advance + charge applies to herself as well as a unit of Repentia, which means they do get to take the +1 to wound buff with them. That is huge.

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 Mr_Rose wrote:
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Oh, the strat for going second vs nlos weapons is concede/hope they shoot other stuff.

But yes, Superiors are proper full support characters for Repentia now

   
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My opinions on the units in the Codex (note, I haven't played with any of them yet so it's really just based on my impressions):

HQ:
-Morvenn Vahl - Stupidly good, she's going to be an absolute terror to deal with.
-Canoness - I love how much customization Canonesses have gotten, they have easily the most versatile build variety in the whole codex, finally being able to be solid beatsticks, very tough damage soaks, buff monsters, etc. Will be in nearly every Sisters list.
-Palatine - I'm glad that the Palatine isn't just a discount Canoness, rerolling 1s to Wound gives her a distinct role, although the lack of customization is disappointing.
-Junith Erutia - She seems alright, giving out cover to units within 6" and letting a unit reroll hits is handy. She's got a bit more of a niche with her dual heavy flamers and 10" movement over a regular Canoness, although you're going to need to have a specific role for her to make her really work.
-Missionary - For 40pts, it's hard to go wrong with one of these guys to get some hymn buffs and save your Elites slots.
-Celestine & Geminae Superia - Celestine is a terror. She's either going to tear through enemy units or act as a great distraction Carnifex for your army while being difficult to truly kill off with their healing abilities and 10 wounds at 2+/4++ and -1 damage for Celestine.
-Triumph of Saint Katherine - The Triumph struggles to justify its points as well as the other two 200+ point HQ units in this Codex. Gaining Look Out Sir! and terrain buffs helps its survivability, as does its invul and hit roll modifier, which makes a major difference. Mainly good for coveted miracle dice generation and manipulation, but I think you're generally going to be better off without it.
-Ephrael Stern & Kyganil of the Bloody Tears - A decent budget beatstick at 120pts, mainly suffers from the fact that they (by design) don't really have any synergy with the rest of the army. If you have 120pts to spare then they can be a cool choice but I don't predict that they'll see a lot of serious usage.

Troops:
-Battle Sister Squad - Losing the 2nd special weapon in a 5 girl squad really hurts because Sisters have been a fantastic MSU army for at least a decade up until now, but it's probably a fair enough change. Definitely going to see more 10-20 girl blobs in future. Still solid, and their Defenders of the Faith strategem is going to be literally game-winning on a regular basis.

Elites:
-Aestred Thurga & Agathae Dolan - I'm kind of mixed on this pair. They definitely seem inessential to a list, but I can see how having all 6 sacred rights active on all units in 6" could be game-winning and being able to take a free relic goes some way to justifying the unit's points cost. They also are clearly intended to be better in Crusade vs Matched Play. Worth trying out, in my opinion.
-Imagifier - Can you imagine spending 50pts to make S3 or lower attacks within 6" -1 to wound? Thankfully +1S or reroll advance/charge rolls are far better but you're going to have to have a very specific role in mind to make an Imagifier worthwhile.
-Dialogus - Great buffing unit at only 50pts! Hymns alone would be good but miracle dice manipulation is huge, especially given how limited these dice will be now.
-Preacher - A solid, cheap source of hymns for your army, don't expect them to do much else. Don't understand why anyone would take anything other than the Zealot's Vindictator though...? What the hell even is a Zealot's Vindicator...?
-Celestian Squad - I really struggle to see how you can justify taking Celestians. About the only niche I can see is that they can try to fill the MSU role since they're still able to take 2 special weapons in a squad of 5, but still not great. Maybe use them as a bodyguard unit for a Canoness that doesn't want to be in melee?
-Celestian Sacresants - Easily my favourite new model in the range, they're by far the best option for a Canoness escort unit, especially if that Canoness is trying to get into combat. Good melee for the points, reasonably durable
-Hospitaller - Depending on your army composition, I think a Hospitaller (or two) could be a great addition. Providing D3 wounds restored per turn, 6+++ and resurrecting D3 models for 1CP? You're gonna justify that 50pt investment fast.
-Dogmata - The Dogmata has a lot of potential, especially if you build your army with her in mind. For the most part, I struggle to see how she's worth 15pts more than a Dialogus, but her ability to make 1 unit per turn gain Objective Secured will likely be literally game-winning on a regular basis.
-Paragon Warsuits - I'm not sold on these things at all. They should be reasonably tanky to small arms fire with -1 Damage (going by RAI), but I don't think that they have the level of damage output that I'd expect from a 240/270pt unit
-Repentia Superior - While it sucks that her ability to reroll advance/charge doesn't work out of a transport, if you can pull it off then the Repentia Superior is the premiere Repentia buffing unit, especially since she supplements that with +1 to wound, making an already nasty unit even deadlier. May be just a bit overcosted at 40pts though IMHO.
-Sisters Repentia - Repentia are probably my favourite unit in all of 40k and it's good to see that their level of damage output is still insane. Incredible unit for stacking buffs on and then going to town on the enemy.
-Crusaders - Everyone's hyped on these guys as cheap action units... for good reason. They're not a terrible unit in their own right, especially for a measly 11pts, but their utility within a list is going to win games.
-Arco-flagellants - Not quite as good as Repentia IMHO, although they are more suited for wiping out hordes and also require less buff stacking to get their full potential off. I really like them, 135pts for a full unit is a great deal.
-Death Cult Assassains - Same sort of deal with Crusaders, cheap unit for actions which is also potentially brutal in its own right. Competes with Arco-flagellants, but I think that they handle higher armour a bit better (although D1 hurts with most Marines having 2 wounds now...).

Fast Attack:
-Dominion Squad - Great special weapons delivery unit, especially with their pre-game scouting move. Probably the best use of the Fast Attack slot in the army, and Blessed Bolts on Storm Bolters seem like a lethal option.
-Seraphim Squad - Poor Seraphim, they're only really worthwhile with dual hand flamers now. People are really hating on them, but I do think that they have the potential to hose a unit with Deadly Descent and then a second round of shooting afterwards.
-Zephyrim Squad - Zephyrim seem... decent. 17pts each for 12" movement, 3 power sword attacks and 6" core reroll charge rolls certainly has potential, especially if you drop them in to support another charging unit nearby. They're probably a more niche unit in the Codex, but don't seem like a terrible pick.

Heavy Support
-Retributor Squad - Probably the best, most efficient dedicated anti-tank unit in the Codex still with Multi-meltas. It's not as good as remaining stationary, but ignores cover can actually be really handy to have. Also have the potential to be insanely deadly with Heavy Flamers now with the Cleased By Fire strategem.
-Mortifiers - After Retributors, Mortifiers are probably the next best use of a Heavy Support slot. If they can reach combat they have an impressive damage output and their 5+++ and ability to fight after death and a couple mortal wound strategems make a unit of these very tempting.
-Penitent Engines - A less-good Mortifier. Worse WS and BS, but is faster at traversing the battlefield, which could make a world of difference in the end.
-Exocist - People are really hating on the Exorcist and for mostly good reason. 180pts is A LOT to swallow, but IMHO you're going to likely need at least 1 in your army. It's the only viable long-ranged anti-tank in the whole army and the ability to shoot out of line of sight, while expensive at 2CP, is potentially game-winning if you can pound a unit with 3D3 S8 AP-2 Damage D6 rockets. You can get around this if you are dedicated to rushing forward as quickly as possible, but otherwise I feel like an Exorcist will be required to keep a Sisters force well-rounded.
-Castigator - I don't really understand the design philosophy behind this thing. It's a ranged anti-tank unit, but its weapons aren't going to do much damage to tanks. At least the Exorcist has a niche...

Dedicated Transports:
-Sororitas Rhino - It's a Rhino, but with a 6++.
-Immolator - WAY too damned expensive for what you get. I can see maybe trying to rush them towards your opponent and then using its Martyr's Immolation strategem to get mortal wounds on the opponent but you'd have to somehow survive that long for it to happen (not to mention that you then waste the tank's shooting that you paid +10pts for). Probably worth sticking with the Rhino if you need a transport, although taking a couple Immolators for additional heavy flamers is tempting.

Fortification:
-Battle Sanctum - lol I'm never going to try this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 03:35:51


   
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A Protoss colony world

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
What the hell even is a Zealot's Vindicator...?

It's the thing this model is holding (model painted by yours truly):

I think they included the option so that you could use this model (from Blackstone Fortress) as a generic Preacher model.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 29 | Current main painting project: Nazgul
 Mr_Rose wrote:
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Are Immolators and Exorcists really THAT bad? Even against armies that don't have meltas?


 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
Are Immolators and Exorcists really THAT bad? Even against armies that don't have meltas?
Yes, T7 11W just isn't enough*
   
 
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