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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH

Greetings everyone!

So this is sort of a side note broken off from the main discussion of "how to make tanks better" but being as how much of that thread has become inf v. vehicles...

Does anyone think that the vehicles (and monsters) in 9th are balanced against each other?

Like, for example, if you made a sort of silly "vehicles only" type 40k matchup (not sure how you would manage with the force org chart, objectives ect, but I'm sure there is a way to fiddle with it,) would the end result be close to balanced?

I've actually suggested doing a similar thing at my LGS, and some people thought it sounded fun, but then covid hit and all that...

So what do you think? Is there an internal balance between vehicles? (Also monsters... but primarily vehicles!)
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







The problem is that the balance between vehicles/monsters and weapons is badly broken, not that the balance between vehicle A and vehicle B is broken. If you wanted to do a vehicles/monsters v. vehicles/monsters event game you'd probably find you're playing a game of rocket tag where everything dies immediately when shot; if you find that fun then go for it, but if you don't then restricting the game to vehicles/monsters isn't really going to help.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH

I had to exalt your post just for using the phrase "rocket tag" :-)

Aside from that: if I recall correctly, epic 40k was actually pretty similar to what you are describing, and an only vehicle/monster game would be (at least in my opinion) fairly similar to that in mechanics if not scale (we do already have Armageddon for that).

Obviously there would be a bit more nuance, and things like light vehicles would struggle to find any real use (I imagine things like anti-infantry tanks would pretty much just be temporary mobile terrain!)... but I still think it might provide a fun and relatively quick alternative to a normal game :-)
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Well, as a more concrete example, if someone made a list of say, 10 Leman Russes (9 loadouts, couple variants, w/ 1 Tank Commander), what could other armies bring to face it (not necessarily to crush it, but an expected, playable force)?

And what would be the Russ loadout itself for 2K points game?

It never ends well 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






leerm02 wrote:
Is there an internal balance between vehicles? (Also monsters... but primarily vehicles!)

There are terrible vehicles and amazing vehicles, terrible monsters and amazing monsters. The game is not balanced internally or externally.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





In previous editions monsters had the edge over vehicles, but now?
Since 8th edition, the only difference between a monster and a vehicle is one keyword.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Since there is no difference between Monsters and Vehicles other than Keyword interaction, they are balanced against each other at a Core Rules level.
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot






Spoletta wrote:
In previous editions monsters had the edge over vehicles, but now?
Since 8th edition, the only difference between a monster and a vehicle is one keyword.


My FLGS would do a dreadnought arena before players split off to go 1v1. Monsters ALWAYS won to the point the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marine players would band up to take out the monsters first.

The possibility your vehicles could lose weapons, mobility, accuracy, or get out right killed with a single shot vs losing a wound is not balanced at all. I would call current iterations with everything having wounds more closely resembling balanced between the two.
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Italy

leerm02 wrote:

I've actually suggested doing a similar thing at my LGS, and some people thought it sounded fun, but then covid hit and all that...

That sounds like a really fun team match where each player brings one model, one side is bringing Leman Russ, Predators etc. and the other team is bringing Carnifex, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes, etc. I'd just make sure there is an upper limit to preclude things like a Baneblade or Mortarion and the teams are roughly balanced point wise. Hope you can get that getting once your LGS opens back up and let us know how it goes!
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
leerm02 wrote:

I've actually suggested doing a similar thing at my LGS, and some people thought it sounded fun, but then covid hit and all that...

That sounds like a really fun team match where each player brings one model, one side is bringing Leman Russ, Predators etc. and the other team is bringing Carnifex, Wraithlords, Daemon Princes, etc. I'd just make sure there is an upper limit to preclude things like a Baneblade or Mortarion and the teams are roughly balanced point wise. Hope you can get that getting once your LGS opens back up and let us know how it goes!


Ohh yes!
Finally I can use both Monoliths!
Slo-mo crashing into other vehicles and wrecking them.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I do think that currently most factions’ “tanks” are fairly balanced when compared with each other. Sure some are better than others, but on the whole they’re mostly all bad so if you just played tanks vs tanks I think you’d have a pretty fun game. I’m talking main battle tank style tanks, not transports or razorbacks etc.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Friendly reminder that the most recent(?) Chapter Approved had rules for Spearhead for those interested in a vehicle/monster-heavy game variant.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Wyldhunt wrote:
Friendly reminder that the most recent(?) Chapter Approved had rules for Spearhead for those interested in a vehicle/monster-heavy game variant.


Wait, what?
There's been like, no talk of that, colour me curious.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Blndmage wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Friendly reminder that the most recent(?) Chapter Approved had rules for Spearhead for those interested in a vehicle/monster-heavy game variant.


Wait, what?
There's been like, no talk of that, colour me curious.

The Spearhead rules were in CA2019, so two CAs back. You could probably find a used copy pretty cheap.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I mean obviously in an all-big-stuff matchup you'e going to find that anti tank weaponry reigns supreme.

What I've done in the past to make things a wee bit more even is this:

Special Rule 1: Demolition Derby

models that make a Fall Back move on their turn may still shoot at a -1 to hit penalty, and may still declare charges. Any model with recognizable arms may attempt to stop an opposing model from falling back - if the controllling player wishes to do so, roll off and add the Strength value of the two models. If the stopping model's roll exceeds the escaping model, the escaping model must Remain Stationary instead

Special Rule 2: Hull Down

When making save rolls against shooting attacks, if more than 25% of the target model is obscured, add +1 to the save roll. If more than 50% of the target model is obscured, add +2. (Note: I do not use Dense Cover for these matches)

Special Rule 3: Flanking

When declaring a shooting attack, draw an imaginary line across the front face of the target model. If the firing model is entirely behind that imaginary line, add +1 to the Wound roll for that attack.

Special Rule 4: Critical Damage Table

After a shooting attack is fully resolved, the target model may choose to roll on a Critical Damage Table rather than losing wounds to that attack. For each 2 points of damage that will be avoided (rounding down) add +1 to the roll result.

And then I make a 2d6-based version of the old Critical Damage Table with results like "Shaken - all to-hit rolls only succeed on a natural roll of 6 during the unit's next turn" "Stunned - the unit may not move and must subtract 1 from all hit rolls during its next turn", random weapon destroyed, opponent chooses weapon destroyed, immobilized, instantly destroyed, instantly destroyed and any roll to determine if the unit causes damage upon death is automatically a 6....stuff like that

The addition of the optional critical damage table helps to make the battle not just a "meltagun festival" because whittly-down weapons tend to be less likely that people will risk the table particularly if theyve got plenty of wounds left, but since you can still use it when you only have 1-2 wounds it means that the last stages of a vehicle's life tend to be fairly entertaining as bits get blown off and destroyed in parts rather than just instantly aced.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I'd say they're balanced against each other as much as anything in this game.

Frankly, it's somewhat impossible to have a nuanced discussion when things are this absurdly lethal right now. The "rocket tag" example is fitting.

Is a demolisher cannon Vindicator or a quad-Lascannon predator better? Do defilers match up to soul grinders? Is a Keeper of Secrets a match for a LRBT?

Well, the answer is "it depends on who goes first" moreso than much else.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Lebanon NH


the_scotsman: I LOVE your special rules! I'm gonna print them up and propose them for use in exactly the type of game I had suggested! Very cool!

(I didn't think a simple "exalt" was enough)
   
 
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