Switch Theme:

Hive Tyrants... threat or fodder (in the fluff)?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in tw
Been Around the Block





Are they fodder or actual threats to marines?
You know, I’ve seen people claiming 2 to 3 custodes would be needed to match one (I honestly think the dude confused a hive tyrant with the Swarmlord, but hey, Swarmlord always jobs to chapter masters as well) but we clearly saw space marines cutting off them like useless lobsters, and there are other instances where they appeared to be fodder-ish, including in the DE codex where Lelith slain several “hissing hive tyrants with ease” and in fracture of biel-tan where Yvraine, a not particular exceptional fighter, was able to demolish one without getting tagged...and then there are numerous instances where space marine protagonist curbstomped one.

Or does their power lie in their strategic mind as they serve as the nids’ commanders?
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

I don’t think you should take story book background as 100% reliable. The hero is always going to best the scariest enemy.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

The thing with Tyranids is that they are super scary, but they are also basically "goons" in that nothing ever dies. Even the Swarmlord is basically immortal.


Hive Tyrants are supreme powerhouses of destruction. They are, for their size, exceptionally powerful in both physical and psychic power.

The problem is this means every time GW wants to show how bad-ass and powerful another elite character is, they go and fight tyranids and they slay hive tyrants. Or if they want to be Primarch powerful they go and fight the Swarmlord.

So on the one hand they are supremely powerful, but on the other they are nearly always going to die (or be mortally wounded) if fighting key characters (unless that key character flees the fight of course). Because they can die and it has zero effect on the Swarm as a whole.


So they are powerful, but also often overused as a crutch to make other characters look powerful by slaying them.

   
Made in tw
Been Around the Block





Andykp wrote:
I don’t think you should take story book background as 100% reliable. The hero is always going to best the scariest enemy.

But from an in-universe standpoint (the lelith one came from codex, while you could see other examples in imperium books featuring SM protagonists) all those I mentioned happened (hence I wonder why there're people claiming a hive tyrant is worth 2-3 custodes, but that's not the point here). While I'm not a tabletop guy, so I couldn't really speak for hive tyrants' stats when it comes down to that, however, I do wonder whether you have any information regarding that?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 08:03:11


 
   
Made in ca
Squishy Squig





Edmonton, Alberta

Not considering any BL, Hive Tyrants are supposed to be the ultimate of what defines a xenos threat (aside from swarmy of course). Pretty much a giant blob of destruction and power on the battlefield. The only thing it really struggles to tear through is plot armour. The codex defines it as an unstoppable bio warmachine so I like it to think of it as such
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Just sitt down and math hammer it down. How much damage would a average hive tyrant to VS a marine or lilith. How much damage would the Swarmlord do VS 3 custodies. And vice versa.

I do not know the stats of custodies but I expect that Sawmlord kills them. He should be able to cast smite and catalyst on himself (5+++). He hits on 2's, S8, AP3 D3 (with extra mortal wound on 6's.) And he is 3++ in melee. He is a big boy. He got nothing on say gulliman who is a better fighter then him and gulliman comes back after death. (A 8th edition. When gulliman costed less then the Swarmlord and he have army wide, no more them army wide, rerolls to hit... Ah, those where the days.)

Lelith and marines I do not know so well. Lelith is kick ass in melee. Her math hammer is quite strong. Hive tyrants in melee is a bit bad, even when you kit them out for it. That is why most hive tyrants are flyrants with move 16 flying with 4 devourer with brainleech worms. 24 shots S6 Ap0 D1. Hitting on 3+. Combine with Patogebic slime for D2. That would kill most marines and lelith quite dead.

Mind you in the fluff the big threat is these monsters is not their damage output. But rather the strategic implications they throw in. Not really represented on the tabletop outside of the Swarmlord 'throwing' units at enemies in the game.

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





Firstly it's Nids, they exist to get nuked constantly because they're infinite and faceless.

Secondly, a Hive Tyrant isn't a duelist or character killer, it's the prime synapse creature for a Nid swarm and is dangerous for its intelligence as well as its ability to harness the power of the Hive Mind to use psychic abilities. If you were to cut it off from the Hive Mind and throw it into an environment that completely left it out of its element, say a Drukhari arena, then it isn't going to perform well.
   
Made in tw
Been Around the Block





 Gert wrote:
Firstly it's Nids, they exist to get nuked constantly because they're infinite and faceless.

Secondly, a Hive Tyrant isn't a duelist or character killer, it's the prime synapse creature for a Nid swarm and is dangerous for its intelligence as well as its ability to harness the power of the Hive Mind to use psychic abilities. If you were to cut it off from the Hive Mind and throw it into an environment that completely left it out of its element, say a Drukhari arena, then it isn't going to perform well.

But was there any evidence of the DE and imperials blocking hive tyrants from the hive mind though? They’re used as fodders in the Custodian blood games as well.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





To capture a Hive Tyrant in the first place you'd need to sever its connection to the Hive Mind otherwise the Nids would just follow the signal and invade wherever said Tyrant ended up. Null fields exist and work at shutting out the Hive Mind.
And again I refer you to the point about them being command organisms not hunter-killers. The entire purpose of a Hive Tyrant is to analyse and adapt the tactics of the swarm to defeat the enemy it faces, it just helps that they're also hulking monsters that can and will kill most enemies they come across.

Side not, Hesperax is the greatest duelist in the Galaxy and the Custodes are the best group of warriors in the galaxy, comparing them to a lone Hive Tyrant is massively outclassing the Tyrant.
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Tribune





Northumberland

To me, hive tyrants aren't that big and bad and it makes sense that they get slaughtered merrily by the hero.

I mean yes indeedy they are super scary and have lots of claws but so do most 'nids. A carnifex is a lot more brutal for instance. The hive tyrant is the big brain so it's job is suppressing the natural instinct in order for the hive mind to control, directing the swarm and on the whole being distantly terrifying. The hive tyrant is scary because it is the avatar of the hive mind on the battlefield. It's doing the job of the general. That makes it a big bug target that requires the Imperium's mighty sandal to whack it flat.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Well they are something like 3 times the height of a human so that's pretty big by human standards

They are also independently intelligent. Ergo separate from the hive mind itself they are still very smart creatures. Alien and thus thinking differently, but they are designed to be able to operate on their own if need be. They are indeed generals of the Hive, but they are also very powerful warriors in their own right (heck a LOT of generals and leaders in 40K are top warriors as well as leaders).

It's a general, its a warrior and its a psyker all in one heavily armoured body. Weapon wise it might destroy your mind, tear you apart with claws or shoot you with powerful cannon.


The Carnifex is comparable in power, but lacks the independent intelligence and psychic power.


The 4th ed codex even makes mention that hive tyrants have more "freedom" to interpret the hive minds will. Though as we don't even really know what or how the Hive Mind operates its hard to say for sure how that manifests. However I would take it that its much like a broodlord or preator genestealer - ergo able to command, have will and agency and ideas of its own when separate from the bulk of the hive mind.

   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Cognitive wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Firstly it's Nids, they exist to get nuked constantly because they're infinite and faceless.

Secondly, a Hive Tyrant isn't a duelist or character killer, it's the prime synapse creature for a Nid swarm and is dangerous for its intelligence as well as its ability to harness the power of the Hive Mind to use psychic abilities. If you were to cut it off from the Hive Mind and throw it into an environment that completely left it out of its element, say a Drukhari arena, then it isn't going to perform well.

But was there any evidence of the DE and imperials blocking hive tyrants from the hive mind though? They’re used as fodders in the Custodian blood games as well.


Hive tyrants have been used in blood games?

Intersting.. How did this work? Did they like capture one and then plonk it in the palace and they had to hunt it down?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Overread wrote:
The thing with Tyranids is that they are super scary, but they are also basically "goons" in that nothing ever dies. Even the Swarmlord is basically immortal.


Hive Tyrants are supreme powerhouses of destruction. They are, for their size, exceptionally powerful in both physical and psychic power.

The problem is this means every time GW wants to show how bad-ass and powerful another elite character is, they go and fight tyranids and they slay hive tyrants. Or if they want to be Primarch powerful they go and fight the Swarmlord.

So on the one hand they are supremely powerful, but on the other they are nearly always going to die (or be mortally wounded) if fighting key characters (unless that key character flees the fight of course). Because they can die and it has zero effect on the Swarm as a whole.


So they are powerful, but also often overused as a crutch to make other characters look powerful by slaying them.

Exactly this. In theory, a hive tyrant is a terrifying force to be reckoned with. In practice, it's hard to write them in a way that gives enough emotional or plot stakes to a fight (especially a protracted one) for them to have a meaningful chance of beating anyone with a name. In Valedor, Yriel spends all of maybe one page ganking a hive tyrant to save the day, and half of that is just describing how cool he looks rushing into spear range. Basically, tyrants have Avatar of Khaine problems.

On a meta level, there's also the weird issue of scale creep. When I started playing, the tyrant was the biggest bug you could get short of a titan, and a carnifex was thought of as a battering ram with the potential to tear apart a tank each turn if left unchecked. So while you knew that, in theory, there were larger tyranids out there, you could kind of think of the tyrant as a big deal because you never saw anything larger on the table. Now he's dwarfed by most of the MCs in his own codex, and it's weird to think of him as punching harder than something twice his size. So GW seems to have leaned into the notion that they're more skillful fighters with rare and powerful biomorphs to keep them relevant. But like, your hive tyrant should feel like you're fielding a dragon on the table.

Personally, I think the fluff might be well-served by verifying that, in response to the Milky Way's inhabitants learning to prioritize killing synapse creatures, the swarm has started cranking out redundant tyrants. Then lean into the idea that they're commander types by giving them some sort of orders mechanic.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Don't forget many of the new bigger Tyranids were around in the 90s - they were in Epic though they looked much different to what they do now.

I think the key thing is that back then they appeared so different that they appeared and functioned more like "Tyranid tanks" so the hive Tyrant was still the biggest "walking" monster. These days the Tyranid big monsters are big bugs with the same design asthetics so they aren't akin to "tanks" visually speaking.


Personally I don't think Tyrants have to go down in power, 40K has a lot of smaller things that punch way harder than their size would suggest. Plus many of the bigger tyranid monsters are single role beasts. Artillery, close combat, ranged - they are specialists dedicated to their field and bringing bigger weapons. However the Tyrant is still the perfected jack-of-all-trades. It can do it all in one package and the idea that its a general and thus gets better biomorphs and such makes sense.

Even within the swarm there will be materials, resources and such which are rare. Rare enough that certain creations are only possible in smaller numbers and thus are dedicated to specific roles. Heck there's even the odd special character that's so unique that they are almost one to an army that they are so rarely created.



I do agree the Tyrant should feel like its putting a dragon down, a total horror and terror that everything else fears. Of course lets not forget its also gained in size over the years; the original isn't that huge, the modern is a towering beast.

   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

The Hive Tryant and the Avatar of Khaine, his Eldar counterpart, are extremely dangerous combatants. They therefore suffer mightly from the Worf Effect: the best way to show how awesome the "hero" happens to be is by defeating something dangerous like a Hive Tyrant or Avatar of Khaine.

And then there is the issue of lore versus game mechanics. Just about nobody is as dangerous in the game as the lore says they are.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





GW always bill Space Marines Vs a Xenos army like it’s Man Utd vs Man City but then it plays out like it’s Man Utd vs Accrington Stanly
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Cognitive wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I don’t think you should take story book background as 100% reliable. The hero is always going to best the scariest enemy.

But from an in-universe standpoint (the lelith one came from codex, while you could see other examples in imperium books featuring SM protagonists) all those I mentioned happened (hence I wonder why there're people claiming a hive tyrant is worth 2-3 custodes, but that's not the point here). While I'm not a tabletop guy, so I couldn't really speak for hive tyrants' stats when it comes down to that, however, I do wonder whether you have any information regarding that?


A Hive Tyrant in game is basically a medium vehicle, however like most things tyranid, it does a very weirdly low amount of damage for its size and cost.

What this ends up with is a thing that's quite a bit tougher than your average character (12 wounds, Toughness 7, 3+ save with a 4+ invuln) but weirdly does about the same damage (5 attacks at Strength 6, AP-3, Damage 3 with its usual Melee Weapon loadout, compare to a standard Space Marine captain with a thunder hammer, who costs a bit more than 1/2 as much but has 5 attacks at Strength 8, Ap-2, Damage 3.)

But that's the thing with nids in general in game: All their stuff does weirdly low damage in melee for how big and bulky and beefy it is. A Dreadnought and a Carnifex are the same size and the same points cost, but a dreadnought with the default weapon is like strength 12 AP-3 D3 and a carnifex is S6 Ap-3 D3. all the big nid gribblies are like that except for the new forgeworld book they just got, which is why every tournament nid list basically exclusively uses FW stuff.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







mrFickle wrote:
GW always bill Space Marines Vs a Xenos army like it’s Man Utd vs Man City but then it plays out like it’s Man Utd vs Accrington Stanly


Who are they?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 23:06:22


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say





I think that would be the point mrFickle is making.
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







It’s good, but it’s not right, thanks for playing…


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 23:14:46


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in hr
Fresh-Faced New User




Croatia

Side not, Hesperax is the greatest duelist in the Galaxy


The same Hesperax that lost to a one-armed chaplain with a " stick" ?

On topic, Tyrant should be able to deal with at least several astartes on his own, unless one of them is a named character. On topic of Tyranids and their " facelessness " I predict we'll have drastic changes to their codex and lore in the next few years and the result will be something akin to Necrons ( unfortunately), like Tyrants or Swarmlords who developed the ability to speak or somehow communicate with other species.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Tarara wrote:
Side not, Hesperax is the greatest duelist in the Galaxy


The same Hesperax that lost to a one-armed chaplain with a " stick" ?

On topic, Tyrant should be able to deal with at least several astartes on his own, unless one of them is a named character. On topic of Tyranids and their " facelessness " I predict we'll have drastic changes to their codex and lore in the next few years and the result will be something akin to Necrons ( unfortunately), like Tyrants or Swarmlords who developed the ability to speak or somehow communicate with other species.



I'm all for more special evolutions that are limited in number that mimic special characters. We already have 3 in models (Old One Eye, Red Terror and Swarmlord) and in the past we had a few others that didn't make it into models.

As for a talking face for Tyranids we have that too - its called Genestealer Cults

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Flinty wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
GW always bill Space Marines Vs a Xenos army like it’s Man Utd vs Man City but then it plays out like it’s Man Utd vs Accrington Stanly


Who are they?


Exactly!
   
Made in tw
Been Around the Block





 Tarara wrote:
Side not, Hesperax is the greatest duelist in the Galaxy


The same Hesperax that lost to a one-armed chaplain with a " stick" ?

Get.Your.Facts.Right.

Just found the name, it was “Helspereth” who got killed, not Hesperax. Lelith didn’t even appear in the book.(get your facts right, dude. There are already a bunch of people spreading false information on both here and Reddit, also frankly marrying an archon would be the last thing Hesperax would do, seeing as how she’s a proud artistic bitch who cares only about slaughtering things in the arenas, therefore rarely engages in politics)
These are the events that you’re referring to:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11134/111345688/8039369-00f9bbad-0cad-475e-a935-be9865a54e5d.jpeg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11134/111345688/8038795-dbc6294b-8af9-46ed-bf0a-0649aabb6377.png

From what I’ve read though, Hesperax is always trashing high tier astartes here and there (see Silent Hunters).

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2021/06/24 01:52:51


 
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






mrFickle wrote:
GW always bill Space Marines Vs a Xenos army like it’s Man Utd vs Man City but then it plays out like it’s Man Utd vs Accrington Stanly


This might be the most British thing I have ever seen on this site. Have an exalt!

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Lord Blackscale wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
GW always bill Space Marines Vs a Xenos army like it’s Man Utd vs Man City but then it plays out like it’s Man Utd vs Accrington Stanly


This might be the most British thing I have ever seen on this site. Have an exalt!


Thanks dude, all I know is what I know.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




If you read Codex Alera, the Vord are basically what the tyranids should be, with the Queens being what Tyrants should be. Potentially killable, like everything else, but with a large chance of failure or massive casualties...assuming your attempt to kill the creature isn't a trap meant to draw you in and annihilate you.

Fluffwise, a Tyrant does have physical and psychic power, but it's the most dangerous tyrannoform because it can think and reason. If outclassed, it should know to retreat and harrass until you're worn down and vulnerable. If attacked, it should be able to attempt to predict and turn said attack back around. And so on. It should know what it can and cannot take in a straight fight and attempt to make adjustments.

Unfortunately, while Tyranids are cool, narratively, they exist entirely to lose. They cannot win or everyone else loses. Because they eat planets, they can't hold objectives that other people can try to take from them. Because they don't negotiate, they can't form alliances or double cross.

Sure, tyranids do damage. Kryptman's response to Leviathan was to burn a number of Imperial worlds not seen since the Horus Heresy...but we never actually see that, and in every edition, with each new codex, the prior impact to the setting is lessened, going from "Tyranids annihilated X" to "Tyranids ALMOST annihilated X" to "Tyranids badly hurt X" to "Yeah, Tyranids hurt X, but X is pretty much okay now but here's some awesome new rules about how X is much better against Tyranids now!"

Wish GW would do something interesting with them within the narrative. Feed them Tau or Ultramar or something. Anything to make them less of a punching bag for other factions.
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

Altima wrote:
If you read Codex Alera, the Vord are basically what the tyranids should be, with the Queens being what Tyrants should be. Potentially killable, like everything else, but with a large chance of failure or massive casualties...assuming your attempt to kill the creature isn't a trap meant to draw you in and annihilate you.

Fluffwise, a Tyrant does have physical and psychic power, but it's the most dangerous tyrannoform because it can think and reason. If outclassed, it should know to retreat and harrass until you're worn down and vulnerable. If attacked, it should be able to attempt to predict and turn said attack back around. And so on. It should know what it can and cannot take in a straight fight and attempt to make adjustments.

Unfortunately, while Tyranids are cool, narratively, they exist entirely to lose. They cannot win or everyone else loses. Because they eat planets, they can't hold objectives that other people can try to take from them. Because they don't negotiate, they can't form alliances or double cross.

Sure, tyranids do damage. Kryptman's response to Leviathan was to burn a number of Imperial worlds not seen since the Horus Heresy...but we never actually see that, and in every edition, with each new codex, the prior impact to the setting is lessened, going from "Tyranids annihilated X" to "Tyranids ALMOST annihilated X" to "Tyranids badly hurt X" to "Yeah, Tyranids hurt X, but X is pretty much okay now but here's some awesome new rules about how X is much better against Tyranids now!"

Wish GW would do something interesting with them within the narrative. Feed them Tau or Ultramar or something. Anything to make them less of a punching bag for other factions.


You mean do something interesting with them again. They did get to eat much of the ultramarines. And even killed calgar. Until they didn’t. It was a very good campaign that one. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766025.page

   
Made in hr
Been Around the Block




Croatia/Zagreb

For me the best example of a hive tyrant battle role comes from an description of hive fleet kraken attack on iyanden craftworld. At the climax of the battle, hive tyrant leading the swarm is challenged to a duel by iynaden avatar of khaine. In response, hive tyrant sends dozen of carnifexes to deal with the threat. Hive tyrant won't fight a losing battle if it can help it.
Hive tyrants should absolutely be able to fight off a few marines. That includes named characters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/26 17:38:38


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: