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Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

Hey guys.

Orks have two different stratagems that effectively allows them to fight twice:

GET STUCK IN, LADZ!
Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select an ORK INFANTRY unit from your army that has already fought once this Fight phase to fight a second time.


ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN
Use this Stratagem when an ORK CHARACTER model from your army is slain. That model is not removed from the battlefield as normal, and can immediately either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or fight as if it were the Fight phase. The slain model is then removed from the battlefield.


Now ive been told a bit different things so i need to have my rules straightened out.


When it comes to "Get stuck in Ladz! ive been told that if i charge an enemy, i hit him, he dies, i consolidate in to a new unit of enemies, they hit me, i then spend 3CP on this stratagem, then i CANNOT hit these guys? THis is what i have been told yet i dont understand why i cant do this. Sure i didnt charge that unit, but i AM within engagement range of an enemy, so surely i should be able to spend CP to allow to hit again? one of the factors we need to be able to hit someone is that we are within engagement range or we charged someone. I am within engagement range and i pay to hit once again. So i would still not be able to hit? I have not been playing with me being able to hit a unit ive consolidated in to, but for the next stratagem, thats a bit different for me.


For Orks is never beaten, its kind of the same question. I charge, i kill, i consolidate in to another unt. That unit then kills me, i come back with the stratagem THEN i DID hit my opponents units i had not charged (because i was told i could do this and i was within engagement range) and then he dies or doesnt die, doesnt matter i just die afterwards.

On two different occations ive done two different things yet i dont know why they are different. Is there even a difference?

What if i was charged, and attacked, and i pile some of my models in to another unit that didnt charge me (because you pile in to the nearest model, which could be someone that didnt charge you) and i make my first hit, which has to be the charged unit i assume. Then its the end of the fight phase, i guess after that other unit hits me, and i pay 3CP to attack again, can i then attack the unit i piled in to?

The rules between charged -> you are allowed to attack and within engagement range seem confusing to me. Or actually they dont but people then afterwards confuse me. I dont know. All i know is i dont read anywhere that says i cant attack a unit im within engagement range of, regardless of whether i charged them or not.

Can someone help?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 09:50:01


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

OMG, this has been discussed at least 100 times here. How can anyone using this forum not have read this ? You cannot make melee attacks against an enemy unit which you didnt charge. The stratagem doesnt change this. See rare rules pg. 362. When you consolidate in engagement range with another unit they can attack you (because they are in engagement range with you), but you cannot attack them, because you didnt charge them.

When its your turn you can only make melee attacks against enemy units which you charged, but your opponent can attack any of your units which are in engagement range of his units.

FIGHT AGAIN
Some rules allow units to fight again in the Fight phase, or fight ‘as if it were the Fight phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to fight at the time when that rule is used. Remember that a unit is only eligible to fight if it is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit, or if it made a charge move in the same turn. In addition, all the normal targeting rules apply to a unit that is using a rule to fight again (e.g. if the unit made a charge move this turn it can still only target enemy units it declared a charge against or that performed a Heroic Intervention).


Also, ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN doesnt work on a CHARACTER which already has fought, because no unit can fight twice, unless a special rule says otherwise. ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN doesnt remove that restriction. GET STUCK IN, LADZ, says the unit can fight a second time, so they can, restriction is removed.

FIGHT PHASE
No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase. If all of one player’s eligible units have fought, the opposing player can then fight with their remaining eligible units, one at a time. Note that after an enemy unit has fought and finished its Consolidation move, it might be that previously ineligible units now qualify as such – these units can then be selected to fight with. Once all eligible units have fought, the Fight phase ends and you progress to the Morale phase.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 10:32:11


 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

Im super confident Orks is never beaten would allow my warboss to attack after he died, even if hes the one who charged and attacked first. that you can only fight once doesnt stop a lot of stratagems from letting you fight twice anyway, and i read it as "immediately" bypasses that rule (as does a lot others) as it tells you you can immediately fight.


Charge, attack, get attacked, dies, stratagem, attacks, dies afterwards.

I have never seen anyone not using the stratagem like you say, as the ability says "immediately".

Maybe you are right, but ive never seen anyone use it like that. nor have i seen tyranid players use it like that who has a similar ability. they would charge in, hit, die, then attack again before dying.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 15:43:11


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

Beardedragon wrote:
GET STUCK IN, LADZ!
Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select an ORK INFANTRY unit from your army that has already fought once this Fight phase to fight a second time.
As noted in the rules, a unit that charged in a turn cannot allocated attacks to a unit it didn't charge unless that unit performed a Heroic Intervention. Thus piling in or consolidating into a unit you did not charge will leave you unable to attack them, even if you used this stratagem.

ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN
Use this Stratagem when an ORK CHARACTER model from your army is slain. That model is not removed from the battlefield as normal, and can immediately either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or fight as if it were the Fight phase. The slain model is then removed from the battlefield.
I agree this stratagem will allow an Ork Character to fight a second time if it already fought during the Fight phase. It tells you to fight immediately "as if" and doesn't stipulate the unit could not have fought this phase. GW even changed Only in Death Does Duty End to only be used on a unit that hadn't yet fought to prevent such a double fight. I would expect the same for Orks Are Never Beaten in the upcoming codex.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

 alextroy wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
GET STUCK IN, LADZ!
Use this Stratagem at the end of the Fight phase. Select an ORK INFANTRY unit from your army that has already fought once this Fight phase to fight a second time.
As noted in the rules, a unit that charged in a turn cannot allocated attacks to a unit it didn't charge unless that unit performed a Heroic Intervention. Thus piling in or consolidating into a unit you did not charge will leave you unable to attack them, even if you used this stratagem.

ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN
Use this Stratagem when an ORK CHARACTER model from your army is slain. That model is not removed from the battlefield as normal, and can immediately either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or fight as if it were the Fight phase. The slain model is then removed from the battlefield.
I agree this stratagem will allow an Ork Character to fight a second time if it already fought during the Fight phase. It tells you to fight immediately "as if" and doesn't stipulate the unit could not have fought this phase. GW even changed Only in Death Does Duty End to only be used on a unit that hadn't yet fought to prevent such a double fight. I would expect the same for Orks Are Never Beaten in the upcoming codex.


thanks, that makes a lot of sense

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 alextroy wrote:
I agree this stratagem will allow an Ork Character to fight a second time if it already fought during the Fight phase. It tells you to fight immediately "as if" and doesn't stipulate the unit could not have fought this phase. GW even changed Only in Death Does Duty End to only be used on a unit that hadn't yet fought to prevent such a double fight. I would expect the same for Orks Are Never Beaten in the upcoming codex.


I disagree, because you need permission to fight a second time, or fight again. The core rules already say a unit cant fight twice, no need to mention that again in the stratagem. GET STUCK IN LADZ has that permission to fight a second time, ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN doesnt.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






"It can immediately fight" is all the permission it needs.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

 Jidmah wrote:
"It can immediately fight" is all the permission it needs.


id say the same thing. I mean of all the times ive used this stratagem after i charged in, got killed, used the stratagem and hit my enemy before dying again afterwards, ive never had anyone look at the stratagem and go: huh, that seems wrong.

I explain how it works, i sometimes show them the stratagem and they also note the "immediately" part and goes: oh yea, so you can hit immiediately again. nice.

A friend of mine who plays tyranids does the same thing when he uses Death Frenzy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 14:33:37


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 Jidmah wrote:
"It can immediately fight" is all the permission it needs.


No, because the Character can get killed before he has fought the first time. Then you can use the stratagem to fight. You need permission which says you can fight again, or a second time.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

 p5freak wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
"It can immediately fight" is all the permission it needs.


No, because the Character can get killed before he has fought the first time. Then you can use the stratagem to fight. You need permission which says you can fight again, or a second time.


i dont agree with that. I understand immediately as.. well immediately. It says i can hit immediately i will hit immediately. I see your logic, but i dont share it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 17:01:05


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 p5freak wrote:
You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.


That's an arbitrary re-definition of the word can.

The stratagem gives you permission to fight an any time a character dies, the fight phase is no exception.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

 Jidmah wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.


That's an arbitrary re-definition of the word can.

The stratagem gives you permission to fight an any time a character dies, the fight phase is no exception.


what this man said.

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 Jidmah wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.


That's an arbitrary re-definition of the word can.

The stratagem gives you permission to fight an any time a character dies, the fight phase is no exception.


There are restrictions in place, which have to be followed. One restriction is that you cannot fight a unit you didnt charge, even if you have a stratagem that allows you to fight a second time. You cannot consolidate into another unit and make melee attacks against them, if you didnt charge them. Another restriction is that no unit can fight twice in the same fight phase. Saying that a unit can fight immediately doesnt give it permission to fight again, or a second time.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

 p5freak wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.


That's an arbitrary re-definition of the word can.

The stratagem gives you permission to fight an any time a character dies, the fight phase is no exception.


There are restrictions in place, which have to be followed. One restriction is that you cannot fight a unit you didnt charge, even if you have a stratagem that allows you to fight a second time. You cannot consolidate into another unit and make melee attacks against them, if you didnt charge them. Another restriction is that no unit can fight twice in the same fight phase. Saying that a unit can fight immediately doesnt give it permission to fight again, or a second time.


im pretty sure a referee would say you can attack again after dying, given that it says immediately.

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Beardedragon wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
You can disagree, but RAW is on my side. You haven't provided a rule citation to back up your argument. Just saying fight immediately is enough doesn't do it.


That's an arbitrary re-definition of the word can.

The stratagem gives you permission to fight an any time a character dies, the fight phase is no exception.


There are restrictions in place, which have to be followed. One restriction is that you cannot fight a unit you didnt charge, even if you have a stratagem that allows you to fight a second time. You cannot consolidate into another unit and make melee attacks against them, if you didnt charge them. Another restriction is that no unit can fight twice in the same fight phase. Saying that a unit can fight immediately doesnt give it permission to fight again, or a second time.


im pretty sure a referee would say you can attack again after dying, given that it says immediately.


Its irrelevant what a referee says, we are talking RAW here, not house rules on a tournament. If you want to support your argument you need to show a rule citation, which you cant, because there isnt any.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

ofc there is. It says i can attack immediately. Whether i died early part of the fight phase or late part of the fight phase after i have hit doesnt matter

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 05:05:22


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

That doesnt remove the restriction that a unit cannot fight twice in the same fight phase. OIDDDD has been changed to show that. It didnt say "has not already been selected to fight this phase" before. This clearly shows that a unit cannot fight twice, not even with a stratagem.

ONLY IN DEATH DOES DUTY END
Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase, when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES CHARACTER model from your army that has not already been selected to fight this phase is destroyed. Do not remove that model from play - it can fight after the attacking model’s unit has finished making attacks. After resolving the destroyed model’s attacks, it is then removed.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

RAW it looks pretty clear that Orks Is Never Beaten stratagem doesn't care about what happened before. It simply allows a character to fight (or shoot) when he dies, regardless of what happened before. In fact it says: "as if it were your shooting or fighting phase"; RAW there's nothing more to that.

Eventually it will be worded differently in the upcoming codex to match the current trend, to avoid fighting twice, like the SM stratagem. In fact OIDDDD explicity says that the model can't fight twice, which isn't the case for the ork strategem so for now RAW the slain ork model can definitely fight twice in the same turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 07:06:04



 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 Blackie wrote:
RAW it looks pretty clear that Orks Is Never Beaten stratagem doesn't care about what happened before. It simply allows a character to fight (or shoot) when he dies, regardless of what happened before. In fact it says: "as if it were your shooting or fighting phase"; RAW there's nothing more to that.


I agree that the ork character can fight or shoot in any phase when he is killed, except for the shooting and fight phase, if he already made some attacks. Because no unit can shoot twice in the same phase, and no unit can fight twice, in the same phase. This restriction is not removed by OINB.

   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

"As if it were in the fighting phase" actually means that we're not in the ork fighting phase, that's why he can fight twice. It simpy resolves his attacks in the same order and with the same rules he would do in the fighting phase.

Second time he isn't fighting in his fighting phase, that's why the SM stratagem clarifies that a model can use it only if he hasn't fought before as GW don't want to make those kind of stratagems a fighting/shooting twice tool, but RAW they are. RAW second round of attacks doens't happen in the model's shooting or fighting phase. If a model is dead his shooting/fighting phase has already ended.

Same for shooting, although orks never care to use that stratagem for shooting.


 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 Blackie wrote:
"As if it were in the fighting phase" actually means that we're not in the ork fighting phase, that's why he can fight twice. It simpy resolves his attacks in the same order and with the same rules he would do in the fighting phase.


Not true. All rules from that phase still apply. If the ork character already has fought in his fight phase he cannot fight again. If he already shot in his shooting phase, he cannot shoot again.

OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.

The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 p5freak wrote:
Another restriction is that no unit can fight twice in the same fight phase.


Please quote the rule explicitly stating that. If you can, case closed, you're right. If you can't, you're wrong.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 Jidmah wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Another restriction is that no unit can fight twice in the same fight phase.


Please quote the rule explicitly stating that. If you can, case closed, you're right. If you can't, you're wrong.


I already did, but here it is again, just for you :

FIGHT PHASE
No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

 p5freak wrote:
That doesnt remove the restriction that a unit cannot fight twice in the same fight phase. OIDDDD has been changed to show that. It didnt say "has not already been selected to fight this phase" before. This clearly shows that a unit cannot fight twice, not even with a stratagem.

ONLY IN DEATH DOES DUTY END
Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase, when an ADEPTUS ASTARTES CHARACTER model from your army that has not already been selected to fight this phase is destroyed. Do not remove that model from play - it can fight after the attacking model’s unit has finished making attacks. After resolving the destroyed model’s attacks, it is then removed.


the only thing it shows is that THAT stratagem has been changed, but death frenzy for tyranids and Orks is never beaten for orks has not been changed.

RAW they can fight twice. Sure the stratagem will probably be changed to not allow this in the future when the new codex drops, but as it stands right now, its possible. For Tyranids too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 10:49:17


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 p5freak wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Another restriction is that no unit can fight twice in the same fight phase.


Please quote the rule explicitly stating that. If you can, case closed, you're right. If you can't, you're wrong.


I already did, but here it is again, just for you :

FIGHT PHASE
No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase.


Wow, taken out of context, nice.

According to that logic, an archon, chaos marines and many other similarly worded rules can't fight twice, either. Since they clearly can fight twice, that Interpretation is wrong.
This text is clearly talking about which units are eligible to fight, which would only matter if the warboss somehow managed to still be alive after having used the stratagem.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Do you ever look around and think "why does everyone around me read it one way, except for myself"?
That includes various tournament organisers and such who have a lot of practice in deciphering RAI.
Or when you do, do you just conclude "everyone is an idiot except for me"?
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






-misunderstanding-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 13:52:48


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Do you ever look around and think "why does everyone around me read it one way, except for myself"?
That includes various tournament organisers and such who have a lot of practice in deciphering RAI.
Or when you do, do you just conclude "everyone is an idiot except for me"?


im unsure who you are refering to.

Last time i checked this ability being used at a tournement the organizers allowed it to be used after a warboss on warbike had died after his charge

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Oh sorry, I was referring to Freak.
I agree that everyone is playing it that you're allowed to fight again, because that's what the rules say.
   
 
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