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Primaris emerged just before my return to the hobby but my understanding is that Cawl is a relatively new character that facilitates to existence of the primaris marines and resolves the technology stagnation fluff that held back changes to the imperial army range.

So do you think GW also created Cawl to future proof the SM line and GW now have blank cheque to create any new tech/model for SM that they fancy? And would you like to guess what that might be.

Do you think that might bleed over into other imperial armies, for example why has Cawls focus bene on SM forces when he could create some monster robot for the Ad Mech forces

mrFickle wrote:
why has Cawls focus bene on SM forces when he could create some monster robot for the Ad Mech forces

Because that's what Guilliman told him to do. He's aware that the wider AdMech consider him a tech-heretic so is being careful not to upset them further.

It’s important to read up on just who (and what) Cawl is.

He’s kind of a composite being, having saved/stolen the memories and knowledge of others. This includes at least one person who worked on the original Astartes programme (black carapace specifically, if memory serves).

There’s also more than one of him, as there’s Cawl Inferior at the very least.

When you start digging into him, there’s quite a lot of interesting concepts. For instance, there’s the strong possibility that rather than Primaris being “all me own work, guv”, he’s instead spent the intervening 10,000 years working on bits and bobs the original project sidelined because they got Astartes to a “good enough” level.

Consider. We know The Emperor was a regular genetic tinkerer. Thunder Warriors, Custodes, Primarchs, Astartes and who knows what else.

And we know that with the abduction of the Primarchs, the Astartes were something of a bodge job salvage operation, a way to use what He had left to best effect. This is reflected in some Legions only being stabilised once their Primarch was recovered, providing pure genetic sampling to fix whatever the problem was.

Had He not fallen at the end of the Heresy, it seems very likely he’d have got to work on something to replace Astartes, just as they replaced Thunder Warriors.

Indeed, it’s pointed out in the Heresy novels that, one for one, Thunder Warriors were superior to Astartes in certain ways. To think that was deliberate on His behalf seems odd. Sure you’ve got them living longer, but better faster stronger is always good.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Indeed, it’s pointed out in the Heresy novels that, one for one, Thunder Warriors were superior to Astartes in certain ways. To think that was deliberate on His behalf seems odd. Sure you’ve got them living longer, but better faster stronger is always good.

There is a tool for every task and a task for every tool...
The Thunder Warriors were made to conquer Terra, a relatively short but brutal war. The Marines were made to conquer the galaxy, were travel distances etc meant long term stability was much more important.

Back on topic, meta answer is making more armour types because GW need to sell more marine kits. The more interesting in universe answer is he seems to be very 'into' black stone and necron tech, which opens up a lot of fun possibilities.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This includes at least one person who worked on the original Astartes programme (black carapace specifically, if memory serves).

Ezekiel Sedayne, who took over the Astartes program after the...

Finally fix this marines have to be male nonsense.

Space Marines but Crab.

mrFickle wrote:Primaris emerged just before my return to the hobby but my understanding is that Cawl is a relatively new character that facilitates to existence of the primaris marines and resolves the technology stagnation fluff that held back changes to the imperial army range.

So do you think GW also created Cawl to future proof the SM line and GW now have blank cheque to create any new tech/model for SM that they fancy? And would you like to guess what that might be.

Do you think that might bleed over into other imperial armies, for example why has Cawls focus bene on SM forces when he could create some monster robot for the Ad Mech forces

I could be wrong (as I haven't read every novel post 8e) but don't think it's been said anywhere that Cawl has done anything to address technological stagnation. I think pretty much everyone would agree from a meta-narrative standpoint that Cawl was introduced primarily to try and make the Space Marine range update seem less extreme by tying it directly to Guilliman and the science of the Great Crusade, with a secondary purpose of acting as another character to move the plot when GW need it.

In setting though much of what Cawl has done is just rehash existing "common" Imperial Technology together and focused entirely on Space Marines because that was the job Guilliman gave him at the end of the Heresy. But the fluff definitely goes to some lengths to try and imply that what Cawl did is really not as extreme as it might seem to observers who casually remember the "technology stagnation" line. The Primaris themselves for instance are an addition of 3 extra organs, one of which is just metal wire threaded into the space marine's skin to make them tougher, and the other two which are implied to have been directly taken from the Emperor's own Great Crusade research which was recorded in the Sangprimus Portum. The Sangprimus Portum being being a device containing the collected full genetic details of all 20 primarchs (though the last bit of data needed to make full primarchs is suspiciously missing when Cawl gets it).

As for the new armors, vehicles, etc.; there is a small cutaway textbox on pg.81 of the 8th edition codex that explains what STC is and ends with:

In the 41st Millennium such constructs are long lost; the Adeptus Mechanicus will stop at nothing to recover even a fragment of these miraculous inventions, several of which Archmagos Cawl used in the creation of Primaris technologies.

which implies that Cawl largely relied on existing STC knowledge rather than invented anything in his own right.

This is altogether not that different from what has happened in past fluff anytime GW needs to justify new models, with some random techmarine finding out that if you swap the blue and red wires you can mount a whirlwind on your landraider or a random Magos finding a new STC in their breakfast cereal. It really doesn't indicate any more radical shifts going forward other than GW just continuing to release new models because they sell better than old models.

Andykp wrote:Finally fix this marines have to be male nonsense.

Removed - BrookM

It’s also worth remembering that Arkhan Land, arguably the Cawl before Cawl, found the STC’s for his Raider and the Grav plating for his Speeders on Mars.

Yes the rediscovery came during the Great Crusade, but arguably not because of it. The STC’s were always on Mars.

Who knows what else lurks in the dusty data stacks of Libraris Omnis?

And with 10,000 years, and at least one Cawl Inferior to scuttle about on Other Projects, it’s entirely possible he found the “new” Primaris vehicle STCs in the same place.

And being a bit of a Richardcranium (and he is), he likely (presumably?) figured “I’m not going to share this. Because this is Primarch Ordered Business, and so I have an authority no other can revoke”.

10,000 years of research, construction, stockpiling and dumpster diving data stacks gets you a lot of stuff.

I’m not sure we actually know exactly when he perfected the Primaris. We do know all was held in cold storage until he revived Guilliman. We do know some of the subjects that became Primaris were born during the Great Crusade.

Is not seen much of this information and if the idea is largely that the primaris tech is based on existing STCs that have been re purposes or new ones discovered in the ruins or archives then fair enough, I think GW should make mor noise about it as it, at least for me, it’s a big part of the imperiums identity and the 40K setting.

I’d like to see some new STCs come to light for non SM armies though.

Admech got some cool stuff recently like the DaVinci style planes and the weird robot dog-horses.
SoB have their mech suits.
AM are a weird one because even when they get new stuff (Wyvern, Taurox) it looks like it always belonged in the first place and indeed is the background says they were always there.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s also worth remembering that Arkhan Land, arguably the Cawl before Cawl, found the STC’s for his Raider and the Grav plating for his Speeders on Mars.

I was betting for a long time that Cawl was Land...

 Gert wrote:
Admech got some cool stuff recently like the DaVinci style planes and the weird robot dog-horses.
SoB have their mech suits.
AM are a weird one because even when they get new stuff (Wyvern, Taurox) it looks like it always belonged in the first place and indeed is the background says they were always there.

I thought it was the same for most new models, they represent things that have always been around just not in the codex.

The universe must be full of…….stuff, it would be odd if the codexes were to be the full limit of each armies operations. It’s only really believable for marines because they have 1000 strong forces so wouldn’t have a massive range of equipment ( and they usually just need a bolter to get the job done) but the AM are billions of soldiers fighting different campaigns.

mrFickle wrote:
Is not seen much of this information and if the idea is largely that the primaris tech is based on existing STCs that have been re purposes or new ones discovered in the ruins or archives then fair enough, I think GW should make mor noise about it as it, at least for me, it’s a big part of the imperiums identity and the 40K setting.

I’d like to see some new STCs come to light for non SM armies though.

To be fair, they kind of did. At least within reason. The following two passages are from the 8th edition Space Marine codex (the mid-edition one with Vanguard marines in it):

Codex Space Marines 8E, pg. 10 wrote: PRIMARIS SPACE MARINES
Nearly every Space Marine created since the First Founding possesses nineteen specialised organs derived from their geneseed.
The Primaris Marines – originally engineered by Archmagos Cawl on the orders of Roboute Guilliman – have three more.
It was the Sangprimus Portum, a device containing potent genetic material harvested from the Primarchs, that allowed for this breakthrough.
Entrusted to Cawl shortly after the Second Founding, this device resulted in a new breed of Adeptus Astartes that were deployed en masse during the Ultima Founding.
Though some Chapters were initially resistant or mistrustful of these newcomers, they have swift become a mainstay of many.

Codex Space Marines 8E, pg. 81 wrote:STC TECHNOLOGY
Created at the developmental apex of the Age of Technology,the Standard Template Construct (STC)
was a way to ensure that all the far-flung human colonies could build anything they required – from air purifiers to military grade weaponry, and from hab-buildings to plasma reactors.
The sum total of Mankind’s engineering knowledge resided within those machines; users would simply request what they needed, and auto-blueprints would be presented.
With them even the least accomplished artificer could fabricate impressive technological marvels.
In the 41st Millennium such constructs are long lost; the Adeptus Mechanicus will stop at nothing to recover even a fragment of these miraculous inventions,
several of which Archmagos Cawl used in the creation of Primaris technologies.

I believe it also was discussed in some of the novels that were released at the start of 8th to try fleshing out both the Primaris and Cawl when they were released (though I unfortunately don't have any quotes handy to confirm that). So barring GW posting a very directly worded "Primaris are not that big a deal because this is the same logic we've used every other time to justify new models." style statement on WarComI'm not sure what else they can really do.

The problem is that just like the lore changes that happened from AoS 1.0 to 2.0, there is a very vocal segment of the community that proudly exclaim how they don't care about the fluff, refuse to read newer fluff, and then loudly yell about any fluff advancement in both settings while repeating inaccurate information. Because some of them are so vocal on Dakka however that misinformation gets seen repeatedly and then snowballs into becoming "common knowledge" by other posters who also didn't read the actual fluff.

Another good example of this is the constant references to the Chapterhouse lawsuit as the primary reason why GW makes a lot of it's business decisions on everything from restricting wargear options, giving units silly names, and making kits more monopose even though it's been 8 years and a CEO change as well as there being a lot of other, more compelling reasons why they could be making the decisions they do.

mrFickle wrote:

I thought it was the same for most new models, they represent things that have always been around just not in the codex.

The universe must be full of…….stuff, it would be odd if the codexes were to be the full limit of each armies operations. It’s only really believable for marines because they have 1000 strong forces so wouldn’t have a massive range of equipment ( and they usually just need a bolter to get the job done) but the AM are billions of soldiers fighting different campaigns.

Bit of column A bit of column B.
Centurion war suits were presented as having been a weapon in the SM arsenal for some time despite the models only being released in 6th edition.
Tauroxes were just name-checked in one of the recent Siege of Terra books, implying they've been used by the Guard for about 10k years again despite only being added in 6th edition.
I've just checked the GW store pages for the newer Admech units and their tagline has them as "oh yeah no these have always been here".
Of all the armies that have excuses for stuff you'd think Admech with their thousands of ancient vaults filled with knowledge would be the ones with "hey we found this cool old thing and then just made a bunch of them to see if they still work".

To be honest, it’s kinda always been this way.

Let me take you back in time, to around around 1995, 1996 at the very latest.

Back then, the Thunderbolt and Marauder were first introduced via the Titan Legions era of 2nd Ed Space Marine. I think in an issue of White Dwarf.

In that peculiar era, the background was Man had lost the knowledge of atmospheric flight, and it had only recently been rediscovered.

Because at that point, 40K was even more of an amorphous blob of constantly evolving and glorious nonsense. Why? Because epic scale battles had been around since nearly the Genesis of 40K as a thing, but had never really featured flyers. Certainly they were the first for Epic (Eldar got some, as did Orks. Nids got some when Hive War debuted. And Marines had always had Thunderhawks, because reasons.

So the random addition of models has always had some shoe horning background reason given.

Centurion Suits were expressly described as a recent rediscovery, so didn’t appear during the Heresy. A cursory Google suggests M36, during the Age of Apostasy.

Likewise, when first introduced, the Razorback was described as a post-Heresy rediscovery. And the Predator Annihilator was a jury rigged conversion originating with the Space Wolves chapter, basically strapping their Devastator issue Las-Cannons to a Predator chassis, which (much) later became Ad-Mech sanctioned.

In short, new models typically have at least some background handwavium for “well where the hell was that x years ago” purposes.

Imperial Guard? I can remember when the Chimera was an adaptation of the venerable Basilisk chassis.

In those days, Basilisks were known as Barking Martha’s, and the crew would wear sixteen onions for luck, as was the fashion at the time rambles off into the distance.

AM are a weird one because even when they get new stuff (Wyvern, Taurox) it looks like it always belonged in the first place and indeed is the background says they were always there.

When you have an army of quadrillions across the galaxy this is fine for me. It could simply be they were always used in some part of the galaxy and has recently been accepted to be used across the Imperium.

 Jack Flask wrote:

mrFickle wrote:Primaris emerged just before my return to the hobby but my understanding is that Cawl is a relatively new character that facilitates to existence of the primaris marines and resolves the technology stagnation fluff that held back changes to the imperial army range.

So do you think GW also created Cawl to future proof the SM line and GW now have blank cheque to create any new tech/model for SM that they fancy? And would you like to guess what that might be.

Do you think that might bleed over into other imperial armies, for example why has Cawls focus bene on SM forces when he could create some monster robot for the Ad Mech forces

I could be wrong (as I haven't read every novel post 8e) but don't think it's been said anywhere that Cawl has done anything to address technological stagnation. I think pretty much everyone would agree from a meta-narrative standpoint that Cawl was introduced primarily to try and make the Space Marine range update seem less extreme by tying it directly to Guilliman and the science of the Great Crusade, with a secondary purpose of acting as another character to move the plot when GW need it.

In setting though much of what Cawl has done is just rehash existing "common" Imperial Technology together and focused entirely on Space Marines because that was the job Guilliman gave him at the end of the Heresy. But the fluff definitely goes to some lengths to try and imply that what Cawl did is really not as extreme as it might seem to observers who casually remember the "technology stagnation" line. The Primaris themselves for instance are an addition of 3 extra organs, one of which is just metal wire threaded into the space marine's skin to make them tougher, and the other two which are implied to have been directly taken from the Emperor's own Great Crusade research which was recorded in the Sangprimus Portum. The Sangprimus Portum being being a device containing the collected full genetic details of all 20 primarchs (though the last bit of data needed to make full primarchs is suspiciously missing when Cawl gets it).

As for the new armors, vehicles, etc.; there is a small cutaway textbox on pg.81 of the 8th edition codex that explains what STC is and ends with:

In the 41st Millennium such constructs are long lost; the Adeptus Mechanicus will stop at nothing to recover even a fragment of these miraculous inventions, several of which Archmagos Cawl used in the creation of Primaris technologies.

which implies that Cawl largely relied on existing STC knowledge rather than invented anything in his own right.

This is altogether not that different from what has happened in past fluff anytime GW needs to justify new models, with some random techmarine finding out that if you swap the blue and red wires you can mount a whirlwind on your landraider or a random Magos finding a new STC in their breakfast cereal. It really doesn't indicate any more radical shifts going forward other than GW just continuing to release new models because they sell better than old models.

Andykp wrote:Finally fix this marines have to be male nonsense.

Removed - BrookM

I do actually think that should be the next thing so no I couldn’t keep it in “my thread”, why can’t I discuss it openly on this forum? And secondly please don’t bring the nasty, sad comments like that, they got cut deleted before.

I won’t push the female marines thing but cawl basically is at the job done stage of marines. They are re rolling with new stiff each edition. I think resurrecting other primarchs will be his gig.

.

What's next for Cawl is probably some variation of 'Ooo, what does this button do?' in his Unobtanium (blackstone) research, or going off script on one of those tangents Roboute specifically forbade him from pursuing (loyalist traitor-stock primaris).

It really depends on how daring GW wants to be and how willing they are to really shake things up. (so far not very, given the retcon and restart to the beginning of Indomitus Crusade, when they kicked off 8th at the END of the Indomitus Crusade)

I can't see GM shaking things up too much with Cawl, he's too useful a tool to deploy new things. I suspect the blackstone connection is going to be his "big story" be intreasting to see a "Cawl vs the silent king" event.

Cawl is a bit of a weird one. I'm not sure if I feel he has depth as a character or is a total Mary Sue. Some interesting stuff has happened with the character. Mostly found in the novel "The Great Work" as I recall. From his pet custom space marine to the whole multiple beings absorbed into the one entity. The constant struggle to keep with reality makes him somewhat interesting as a character much like Lemartes. The fact that he may have a plan even he has forgotten about is a mixed bag of interesting and eyerolling.

You know how sometimes bad writers make autism a super power? Well Cawl kind of feels like they made Alzheimer's into a character trait/superpower.



As a plotdevice/macguffin he's useful for GW. Being this person with near infinite resources who can break the stagnation while not breaking the fluff. He's been around for a fair few years now so it feels less shoehorned in when he pulls some new vehicle out his mechadendrited backside.

I think they should’ve released his novel earlier.

Much of the push back was a case of “erm….who now? Nope. Never heard of him”.

All characters start off with that to some degree. Cawl however didn’t get his explanation soon enough, so he felt a bit Plot Device, and not a mover and shaker. Especially with how critical he was.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think they should’ve released his novel earlier.

Much of the push back was a case of “erm….who now? Nope. Never heard of him”.

All characters start off with that to some degree. Cawl however didn’t get his explanation soon enough, so he felt a bit Plot Device, and not a mover and shaker. Especially with how critical he was.

IMHO he started as more a plot device, and then Guy Haley fleshed him out to add some depth. I don't think I'd ever call him a mary sue though as there was never an element of "authorial insert/wish fufillment" to him

Is there any chance or theory that indicates the Emperor force-downloaded himself into Cawl's Body/mind, and kinda force dominated him? I could see that, because Cawl's had a real "heretical shift" in the past 10k years. What if the body of E is just the conduit, and the body of Cawl is the literal Pinocchio if you will. It would totally fit the personality of Big E as the Geppetto of the cannon, pulling the strings, you are all tools for my great will, etc.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Is there any chance or theory that indicates the Emperor force-downloaded himself into Cawl's Body/mind, and kinda force dominated him? I could see that, because Cawl's had a real "heretical shift" in the past 10k years. What if the body of E is just the conduit, and the body of Cawl is the literal Pinocchio if you will. It would totally fit the personality of Big E as the Geppetto of the cannon, pulling the strings, you are all tools for my great will, etc.

I don't think so - the Emperor has left messages for Cawl in peoples memories, but that's as far as the influence has gone. Even when Cawl was still just Cawl (during the HH) he had a heretical bent, performing banned experiments, building his own servitor, etc.

beast_gts wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Is there any chance or theory that indicates the Emperor force-downloaded himself into Cawl's Body/mind, and kinda force dominated him? I could see that, because Cawl's had a real "heretical shift" in the past 10k years. What if the body of E is just the conduit, and the body of Cawl is the literal Pinocchio if you will. It would totally fit the personality of Big E as the Geppetto of the cannon, pulling the strings, you are all tools for my great will, etc.

I don't think so - the Emperor has left messages for Cawl in peoples memories, but that's as far as the influence has gone. Even when Cawl was still just Cawl (during the HH) he had a heretical bent, performing banned experiments, building his own servitor, etc.

If he is in Cawl this memories are messages he has left himself

Skipping past all the superbad lore building, this would actually be a pretty genius move. While Daemons are busy trying to attack terra, the emperor is really light years away sticking his tendrites into projects like new Marines, female Astartes, and basically trying to Jurassic Park the Squats. A literal Ghost in the Machine. It's almost the exact plot of the game Inquisition: Martyr. Where an incredibly powerful AAA+++ psyker inserted themselves into a Cybernetic organism. Same plot line of the 2nd(?) book of Eisenhorne. Both detail how millions of psykers had to be "sacrificed" daily to even allow it to happen.

All I am saying is GW has gone out of their way to setup the precedent for it.

Now please make female Marines.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think they should’ve released his novel earlier.

Much of the push back was a case of “erm….who now? Nope. Never heard of him”.

All characters start off with that to some degree. Cawl however didn’t get his explanation soon enough, so he felt a bit Plot Device, and not a mover and shaker. Especially with how critical he was.

Yeah, it probably would have been received a lot better if the Heresy connection with both Cawl and things like the Sangprimus Portum (show as being recovered during the Heresy in Sons of Selenar) had come out leading up to the Primaris debut rather than after.

It's interesting though that GW seems to be pretty bad at forecasting coming developments in 40k but seems to have gotten much better at doing it in AoS as that game has grown. With both the Lumineth and Slaanesh being big examples of foreshadowing being done pretty well.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Skipping past all the superbad lore building, this would actually be a pretty genius move. While Daemons are busy trying to attack terra, the emperor is really light years away sticking his tendrites into projects like new Marines, female Astartes, and basically trying to Jurassic Park the Squats. A literal Ghost in the Machine. It's almost the exact plot of the game Inquisition: Martyr. Where an incredibly powerful AAA+++ psyker inserted themselves into a Cybernetic organism. Same plot line of the 2nd(?) book of Eisenhorne. Both detail how millions of psykers had to be "sacrificed" daily to even allow it to happen.

All I am saying is GW has gone out of their way to setup the precedent for it.

Now please make female Marines.

No there is literally zero precedent for any of that. Please stop trying to gaslight people to push your personal agenda.

Whatever GW thinks will sell more product is what Cawl will do.

I would like to see female Marines added by him, though. Would be cool.