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Not seen any mention of the new book on here yet. Couple of interesting tidbits in the article today, not least rules for 7 chaos legions.
CSM getting supplementary rules before their codex? Do you think these rules might make Faith and Fury obsolete?

I wonder if this means that the CSM Codex will be out soon, too. All the other armies in the Charadon books got their Codex already or are announced. Also strange there's no day 1 DLC for Orks in there.
This could also be the 2nd wound Patch everybody is waiting for hidden in a campaign book

Got some DLC for Sisters though

I think it's likely that some of this material will be lifted from the PA book; if this doesn't make the PA obsolete, the dex will, so it's coming soon.

I couldn't tell from today's Warcom article if the Order of Our Martyred Lady stuff is a supplement (like Cult of Strife) or an Army of Renown with Vahl.

Either way, I wish they'd give one of the other orders some attention; OoOML get EVERYTHING.

One rumour I saw concerning the CSM content was that it was just F&F repackaged. Someone else said someone else reported that though so honestly no idea. Guess we'll find out when GW does the previews for it.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Got some DLC for Sisters though

Hate the DLC, but this will be a must buy for me for CSM ( well, Belakor stuff, anyway ). ( Must buy as in I'll be waiting until after the reviews... )


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 Gert wrote:
One rumour I saw concerning the CSM content was that it was just F&F repackaged. Someone else said someone else reported that though so honestly no idea. Guess we'll find out when GW does the previews for it.

There would be riots, if true.

Stoked for Disciples of Belakor. I'm eager to see what units you will be able to mix.

I don't get it. SoB and ad mecha just came out. Why can't the rules be in their codex? Plus does this mean that the 1ksons/GK update is being pushed one month away?

Because how would they get your money if they did that.

This book could contain the most OP rules for my sisters and yet I would never get it.

I'm not funding these campaign books.

It's because they can give just one sub-faction with these rules; if it was in the dex, everyone would have to get it.

Armies of renown, arguably could go in a dex, but supplements could not- it wrecks the internal balance between subfactions. This also makes it possible for TO's and competitive events to exclude the material, which they would not have the option of doing if it was in the dex. It's one of the reasons I object to the DLC label.

This is not "material which was held back from a dex" - it is stuff that would not exist if the campaign book did not exist.

Simply put: including optional rules in a campaign book is one of the things that makes the rules optional.

This book could contain the most OP rules for my sisters and yet I would never get it.

I'm not funding these campaign books.

Different army but the same sentiment. Put the rules for my CSM where they flipping belong. IN. MY. CODEX.

PenitentJake wrote:
It's because they can give just one sub-faction with these rules; if it was in the dex, everyone would have to get it.

Armies of renown, arguably could go in a dex, but supplements could not- it wrecks the internal balance between subfactions. This also makes it possible for TO's and competitive events to exclude the material, which they would not have the option of doing if it was in the dex. It's one of the reasons I object to the DLC label.

This is not "material which was held back from a dex" - it is stuff that would not exist if the campaign book did not exist.

Simply put: including optional rules in a campaign book is one of the things that makes the rules optional.

That doesn't make much sense. At all. TOs could easily say "You can't use pages x-xx". Literally no different than saying "you can't use X supplement". If you showed up to an event trying to use your Crusade rules, they wouldn't say "Welp .... it's in the codex! Have to use it now!" A lot of this is likely to be material that has been held back from the 'dexe's of certain armies. Armies of Reknown is fine in the campaign book imo, but the handful of pages for the Traitor Legions should absolutely be in the codex. There's no reason not to. I am fine with the DLC label honestly. It applied pretty well to the first one. Maybe the second one will be different, but I'm not seeing any indication of that.

Lets see if OML will get broken rules similar to CofS and relegate other Orders to narrative.

As for chaos, im currently using Chaos Codex, Faith and Fury, Vigilus Ablaze and Shadowspear demonkin booklet just to run my army. I don't need another supplement, I need a codex

I like campaigns so will likely pick up

Will be interested for the disciples of belakor rules.

If the rest of the CSM updates are bridging rules before the next codex then this sucks biiiiiiig time

Yeh disciples of belakor is a very interesting concept. Mortal followers means there is some faction blurring going on, I can't think of a time when they've done that in 8th or 9th.
What mortal units? I hope it's not just a bunch of cultists that would be very disappointing...


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Oh, there was the talons of the emperor stuff actually

PenitentJake wrote:
It's because they can give just one sub-faction with these rules; if it was in the dex, everyone would have to get it.

Armies of renown, arguably could go in a dex, but supplements could not- it wrecks the internal balance between subfactions. This also makes it possible for TO's and competitive events to exclude the material, which they would not have the option of doing if it was in the dex. It's one of the reasons I object to the DLC label.

This is not "material which was held back from a dex" - it is stuff that would not exist if the campaign book did not exist.

Simply put: including optional rules in a campaign book is one of the things that makes the rules optional.

Eh whis puts internal balance just as screwed. If they are any good it's mandatory purchase. Whether it's in codex or here it's　usable so if you don't get book　and rules are　good you are　handicapping just as if you refused to use order bonuses from codex.

Abaddon303 wrote:
Yeh disciples of belakor is a very interesting concept. Mortal followers means there is some faction blurring going on, I can't think of a time when they've done that in 8th or 9th.
What mortal units? I hope it's not just a bunch of cultists that would be very disappointing...


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Oh, there was the talons of the emperor stuff actually

The picture that accompanied the first mention of Be'lakor's faction showed various CSM units. Including Terminators and Heldrakes.

PenitentJake wrote:
I think it's likely that some of this material will be lifted from the PA book; if this doesn't make the PA obsolete, the dex will, so it's coming soon.

I couldn't tell from today's Warcom article if the Order of Our Martyred Lady stuff is a supplement (like Cult of Strife) or an Army of Renown with Vahl.

Either way, I wish they'd give one of the other orders some attention; OoOML get EVERYTHING.

TBH OoOML could do with a small power bump, they're kind of the jack of all trades, master of nun faction in the new Codex.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Stoked for Disciples of Belakor. I'm eager to see what units you will be able to mix.

Me too - extremely hyped for this.

Tycho wrote:


That doesn't make much sense. At all. TOs could easily say "You can't use pages x-xx". Literally no different than saying "you can't use X supplement". If you showed up to an event trying to use your Crusade rules, they wouldn't say "Welp .... it's in the codex! Have to use it now!" A lot of this is likely to be material that has been held back from the 'dexe's of certain armies. Armies of Reknown is fine in the campaign book imo, but the handful of pages for the Traitor Legions should absolutely be in the codex. There's no reason not to. I am fine with the DLC label honestly. It applied pretty well to the first one. Maybe the second one will be different, but I'm not seeing any indication of that.

So first off, we don't know what the chaos legion content will be. I think a lot of folks are worried that it will be essential content, and I believe this is a very valid concern. Legions didn't get as much content in the 8th dex as they should have, which made the PA content pretty much necessary. The same is true for a lot of armies, actually- their dexes were lean and weak compared to Marines 2.0 that they NEEDED the PA content to keep up. That was a huge mistake on GW's part, and it left a scar.

I hope that once all the books are on the table, the CSM dex will be good enough to play any legion without supplemental material. I suspect it's what GW was aiming for, though as we know, they don't always hit the mark. If the content for the Legions in the BoF does turn out to be essential once the 9th dex drops, you won't get any argument out of me- I'll absolutely agree it should have been in the dex. But for all we know, it's going to be an Army of Renown for each Legion, and if so, that's hardly MUST HAVE content.

I think that the BoR did a fairly good job at being optional- certainly it did a better job of it than most of the PA books. I'm very much hoping that the BoF manages the same, but it's a taller order since the 9th Chaos dex isn't out yet; that fact alone will make it SEEM necessary, whether it is or not.

But excluding a book IS easier than excluding parts of the dex- the caveat being "Ways to Play info" which was designed to be excluded by virtue of choosing one of the ways to play. Any tournament is going to tell you whether it's Matched or Crusade, with Matched being the obvious default. But if I told you I was excluding pages xx-xx from the SM dex, you'd actually have to look it up to see what's excluded. If I say "No Campaign books," you don't need to look anything up. We do this in D&D ALL the time. It's super easy to tell someone not to use a book.

If you exclude only certain pages, you're far more likely to end up with a 60 page Dakka thread arguing that some of the rules that weren't forbidden are worse than some that were. Excluding a campaign book comes with several built in excuses for not using it- from the practical (Because we didn't want our players to have to buy an extra book) to the fluffy (This tournament does not take place in the Charadon Sector during the era in question).

Its worth pointing out that GW's schedule is still recovering form the Wider Global Situation, and i think its very likely that the CSM codex was originally intended to be released July or August, but got pushed back/other releases were given priority.

After all, Tsons and GK were supposed to be released at least 3 weeks ago, (before the suspended points adjustments were released), but are still not yet out for pre-order, so its several weeks before they drop. I wouldnt be supised if CSM drop this autumn.

Why would anyone ban a legal book for a faction ? That sounds crazy.

 bullyboy wrote:
Lets see if OML will get broken rules similar to CofS and relegate other Orders to narrative.

As for chaos, im currently using Chaos Codex, Faith and Fury, Vigilus Ablaze and Shadowspear demonkin booklet just to run my army. I don't need another supplement, I need a codex

They'd have to get 'if your opponent Blinks he loses' as a 1CP stratagem to go from arguably the worst order to being better than AS or BR.

The Warhammer community page states that the disciples of belakor army is mortals and deamons.

So maybe no CSM in DOB but black legion and death guard are in the campaign.

This could be an entry for deamons army with the renegade guardsman models as the “mortals”. The current cultist models are the ones for cultists of the abyss so not sure that they would be used in this army of renown although they could be.

PenitentJake wrote:


So first off, we don't know what the chaos legion content will be. I think a lot of folks are worried that it will be essential content, and I believe this is a very valid concern. Legions didn't get as much content in the 8th dex as they should have, which made the PA content pretty much necessary. The same is true for a lot of armies, actually- their dexes were lean and weak compared to Marines 2.0 that they NEEDED the PA content to keep up. That was a huge mistake on GW's part, and it left a scar.

Everybody NEEDED the PA content to "keep up". It literally was a series designed to serve as a bridge for 9E.

CSM are not special. If it's essential content, either buy it or don't. It's becoming vastly irritating to constantly have threads about how these supplements are such "essential content" for matched play or casual players that have been sucked into metachasing by a de facto matched play environment.

Or there's the other irritating factor of "BUT WHY WASN'T IT IN THE BOOK!!!!"...because they didn't have it for everyone, so they left it out. People whined about the SM supplement book format, they whined about the PA format, they whined about the Vigilus format. There's literally no winning for them, so they've picked a method and run with it.

Karol wrote:
I don't get it. SoB and ad mecha just came out. Why can't the rules be in their codex? Plus does this mean that the 1ksons/GK update is being pushed one month away?

Because GW has seen PC gaming companies introduce DLC and cottoned on that its a good way to make easy money.

At least they can't do loot boxes

Pickled_egg wrote:
At least they can't do loot boxes

Oh my sweet summer child...

Pickled_egg wrote:

Karol wrote:
I don't get it. SoB and ad mecha just came out. Why can't the rules be in their codex? Plus does this mean that the 1ksons/GK update is being pushed one month away?

Because GW has seen PC gaming companies introduce DLC and cottoned on that its a good way to make easy money.

Or because doing a spread for each subfaction in an army that doesn't just have a single subfaction would necessitate larger books.

At least they can't do loot boxes

Removed - BrookM

 Kanluwen wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:


So first off, we don't know what the chaos legion content will be. I think a lot of folks are worried that it will be essential content, and I believe this is a very valid concern. Legions didn't get as much content in the 8th dex as they should have, which made the PA content pretty much necessary. The same is true for a lot of armies, actually- their dexes were lean and weak compared to Marines 2.0 that they NEEDED the PA content to keep up. That was a huge mistake on GW's part, and it left a scar.

Everybody NEEDED the PA content to "keep up". It literally was a series designed to serve as a bridge for 9E.

CSM are not special. If it's essential content, either buy it or don't. It's becoming vastly irritating to constantly have threads about how these supplements are such "essential content" for matched play or casual players that have been sucked into metachasing by a de facto matched play environment.

Or there's the other irritating factor of "BUT WHY WASN'T IT IN THE BOOK!!!!"...because they didn't have it for everyone, so they left it out. People whined about the SM supplement book format, they whined about the PA format, they whined about the Vigilus format. There's literally no winning for them, so they've picked a method and run with it.

When they release the Drukhari codex and then a week later Book of Rust 1 with a must have Cult of Strife detachment its cynical DLC, simple as that. You can't defend that.
It looks like they are doing the same with sisters.

Personally I'd be fine with the Book of Rust series if it served as a bridge to balance factions that they know aren't getting a codex for a while OR kept it to non matched play formations/rules only.

It's the DLC following hot on the heels of codexes which is a joke.


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At least they can't do loot boxes

Removed - BrookM