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Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper



Idaho

Wouldn’t people of the Imperium back in the day, have oral histories of the Chapters and Primarchs who saved them? Also with 2 huge Primarch statues being removed would cause questions to be asked? Even 10k years later ya gotta figure some planet populations would remember their chapters, and Primarch names? Again Oral history?

I know what’s next. Inquisition wiped out the populations who knew of them. That is such a laaammmee reasoning to dismiss those who knew the chapters and Primarchs who shall not be named?

There has to be some civilization, he’ll even the elder or that Necron collector guy who may have a squad or two of the not named chapters in his collection. A very rare collection indeed.

I know Lore is lore, but still even if they had a lil bit of mention of these 2 Primarchs it would be something.

I for one love the mystery, but also what if they ended up being an intrigal part of the present lore would be neat.
   
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GW have never said that nobody knows anything about the lost Primarchs. Just that they have been deleted from Imperial records, and then the Horus Heresy novels expanded on that slightly with the implication that the remaining Legions were forbidden from talking about them.

At the very least, the surviving Chaos Primarchs would likely know what happened, and quite possibly some of their longer-lived underlings would as well. Guilliman, too. And as you say, there would likely be scraps of information spotted around the place, if someone was to look in the right places. Although an oral history surviving in any recognisable form after ten thousand years is probably a stretch.

The thing is, ten thousand years later, there's not really any particular reason for anyone to go looking. We, as outside observers, are interested in the Lost Primarchs. The people of the Imperium? Not so much. They're just a (deleted) footnote in history.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/01 23:46:41


 
   
Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper



Idaho

I personally think, yeah it’s far fetched. That the Emporer kinda got a vibe about the future, I can’t provide any proof, but think he hid the 2 Legions to help when it was like DEFCON 5. Again, no proof.

He had these two legions amassed and hidden. I know a lot of those Legions went to the Ultra Marines. All the troops got there heads scrambled to not remember. But as far as I know, nobody ever said how many the Legions were. Could have sent just a portion could have been sent away.

These are just freelance thoughts of mine. But it provides GW with another big bag of cash if suddenly two never heard of chapters with Primarchs showed up and just started whooping but.

I know lotta holes in my theories. I got a gut feeling as bad as it may be, will still show up. How I dunno. Take this post in stride.
   
Made in gb
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U.k

Agree with above, and no oral history lasts 10000 years. It’s a very long time to play Chinese whispers. And to top it off the state is pretty mean in the imperium. They don’t like questions and get a bit Killy/lobotomisy if you make a fuss. Don’t think many are that inquisitive in that era.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Whatever happened to them, there was an immense effort to remove them from history by the Emperor Himself.
They were found roughly mid-Crusade along with the other Primarchs but all records of them were erased prior to the start of the Heresy and the Primarchs were bound by oath to never speak of them again. There is a story where Malcador has a discussion with Dorn about how at Dorn and Guilliman's request, their minds were wiped of any memory of the two Lost Primarchs and it is hinted that many of their Astartes were mind-wiped and reprogrammed as they were too useful an asset to waste. Dorn asks for the wipe to be lifted but after Malcador does this, Dorn remembers why he asked for it in the first place and wants it back.
Over 10k years have passed since the Lost Primarchs were removed from Imperial history and the only people that have knowledge of their existence are the Inquisition, Guilliman, and Belisarius Cawl. Cawl was specifically told to only use the gene-seed of Loyalist Primarchs when creating the Primaris but the Cawl Inferior objected to this stating that only the Primarchs were flawed, not the Marines themselves. This could mean that Cawl went behind Guilliman's back and created Primaris using the genetics of all 20 Legions and falsified or hid their reports. There are quite a few Chapters that follow the specific orders of Cawl and basically act as his agents across the galaxy.
The value and fun of the Lost Primarchs is the mystery, much like the War in Heaven it's better to have snippets of what might have been to keep people guessing and interested but the true story will never be revealed.

Nothing is confirmed but the general idea is that one was lost and the other purged. The 2nd Legion is known to have led an expedition to the Ymga Monolith but whatever events occurred were erased. The Wolves were widely known as the Emperor's executioner Legion and prior to the Burning of Prospero, it was noted that the Wolves had been loosed before and would be loosed again.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/02 00:10:12


 
   
Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper



Idaho

I do get the Lore. I do What about daemons who knew, could potentially trade that info for something else?
   
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Trade? For whom would that information be at all valuable?

 
   
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Whiteshield Conscript Trooper



Idaho

I dunno, dude. Just going by what I know. Could be valuable to any and all chapters, the high lords? Xenos. I was just throwing it out there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/02 07:01:55


 
   
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In what way would knowing the identities of two dudes from 10000 years ago be valuable to any of the people you've listed, though?

It's ancient history.

 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





We’re 10k years on from the great crusade and the HH. And that’s 10k years of religious oppression and propaganda. I think it’s in one of the big rule books that the population of true imperium aren’t even aware of the HH and just believe in the 8 loyalist primarchs and the emperor.

There maybe folk lore but I’d be inclined to believe that there is a branch of the inquisition that route this kind of thing out and put a stop to it.

Also huge swathes of humanity live day to day just trying to survive and probably have no care about the events of 10k years ago
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Thus far I think my favourite fan-theory on the lost legions/primarchs is that it was a technical error.

The two lost legions are number 2 and 11. Or, in roman numerals, II and XI.

As II and 11 look very similar, there is an amusing fan theory that these two legions became muddled through poor record keeping. In order to cover their mistakes, they opted to write them out of imperial history instead of try to correct the clerical error! Nobody investigated too hard. Hence that they were deliberately removed for unknown reasons - it was someone who had screwed up deleted their files to avoid scrutiny!


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Made in us
Whiteshield Conscript Trooper



Idaho

To be honest, I wanna know. Simple as that. No mystery or anything. I wanna know what went on. I wanna know what crime they committed, before Malcador basically bitched slapped Horus for even daring to bring them up. There is no mystery on my end.

I hope GW eventually talks more about it before I die.
   
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GW has released about 1000 books set around the HH and at some point they will run out of new novels to release. At that point I think they will scrap this barrel
   
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Northumberland

 insaniak wrote:
In what way would knowing the identities of two dudes from 10000 years ago be valuable to any of the people you've listed, though?

It's ancient history.


People in the here and now dedicate their entire lives to trying to answer questions like that, myself included. Finding out the names of people of the past is one of the most incredible things to do.

A lot of early antiquarians were in the military, marines have that whole warrior sage vibe a lot of the time. The mystery is the draw to find out more. If you knew brethren from your ancient past met some hideous doom that was hidden by the high almighty, you'd have a bit sniff about.

If they were to write a novel about it, they should do a Cthulhu mythos esque book where a technoarchaeologist or rogue inquisitor is determined to find their fate and eventually strikes a bargain with Tzeentch in order to find out their true end. Only to go steadily insane with the knowledge and suffer a grisly fate in a dark corner of the galaxy, haunted by the truth, writing reams of text perfectly describing what happened, only it's too horrific and nobody believes them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/03 11:08:43


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I find it's a nice little secret and after they've shown the HH from every angle there's the problem that any explanation couldn't have been plausible enough to totally erase these two legions. Because they couldn't have been worse than the Word Bearers and if they simply were wiped out by Hrud or whatever why all the fuss about erasing them from history?
It’s good if 40K keeps some secrets, like these Primarchs, Tyranid and Ork origins, war in heaven and what not.
   
Made in it
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Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

I think that some implausible or unjustified knee-jerk reaction form the Emperor would suit the setting very well...

In other words: I agreed that with the Horus Heresy fully fledged, there are very few meaningfulbreason for such a heavybcensorship, whatever this two legion may have done.

At the same time, if they've been brutally removed from history for petty reasons, it became even more significative of the excessiveness of the Emperor, and is a sour tragedy when you consider what's had happened later with the full Heresy (and also the fact that, since half of the Legion revolted, they haven't even been censored because there hasn't been the time and the resources/order to do that).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 09:28:28


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 insaniak wrote:
In what way would knowing the identities of two dudes from 10000 years ago be valuable to any of the people you've listed, though?

It's ancient history.


In the recent novel, Godblight:

Spoiler:
Rotigus the Rainfather spreads the seeds of corruption inside the Imperium by leaking information about the Imperium Secundus and Roboute's part in it to Roboute Guilliman's chief archivist whatshisname. We learn, from Rotigus explanations, that he aspires to eventually throw the entire internal power structure of the Imperium into tumoil as a long-term consequence of this.


Something similar could perhaps be orchestrated with intel concerning the 2 lost primarchs.

Btw, I do believe that the BL will eventually do a novel series event on the 2 primarchs, much to the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the fans.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 09:43:00


 
   
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Commissar Andrados wrote:
Wouldn’t people of the Imperium back in the day, have oral histories of the Chapters and Primarchs who saved them? Also with 2 huge Primarch statues being removed would cause questions to be asked? Even 10k years later ya gotta figure some planet populations would remember their chapters, and Primarch names? Again Oral history?

I know what’s next. Inquisition wiped out the populations who knew of them. That is such a laaammmee reasoning to dismiss those who knew the chapters and Primarchs who shall not be named?

There has to be some civilization, he’ll even the elder or that Necron collector guy who may have a squad or two of the not named chapters in his collection. A very rare collection indeed.

I know Lore is lore, but still even if they had a lil bit of mention of these 2 Primarchs it would be something.

I for one love the mystery, but also what if they ended up being an intrigal part of the present lore would be neat.
Ask the average chinese citizen under 30 years about the Tiananmen Square protests and see if they know anything about it.
   
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 Cybtroll wrote:
At the same time, if they've been brutally removed from history for petty reasons, it became even more significative of the excessiveness of the Emperor, and is a sour tragedy when you consider what's had happened later with the full Heresy (and also the fact that, since half of the Legion revolted, they haven't even been censored because there hasn't been the time and the resources/order to do that).


IIRC, the reason the 9 Traitor Legions haven't been expunged from the records is that they haven't been wiped out yet.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





One of my favourite theories is also that one of the lost Primarchs was a Psyker like Magnus was because all Primarchs seemed to have one with similar power set / skill focus and thus far there isn't a second one with Magnus' skill and capabilities in Psyker realm.

And that leaves one counterpart missing to Ferrus Manus also. There isn't another tech and tank focused Primarch like Manus out there either so one was also like Ferrus Manus in terms of skills / powers and focus.
   
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Stormin' Stompa






 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
One of my favourite theories is also that one of the lost Primarchs was a Psyker like Magnus was because all Primarchs seemed to have one with similar power set / skill focus and thus far there isn't a second one with Magnus' skill and capabilities in Psyker realm.

And that leaves one counterpart missing to Ferrus Manus also. There isn't another tech and tank focused Primarch like Manus out there either so one was also like Ferrus Manus in terms of skills / powers and focus.


I thought Perturabo was pretty technologically inclined, he just gets reduced to being a siege expert because he contrasts against Dorn. He made his own bodyguard basically Robots for a reason.
   
Made in gr
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 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
One of my favourite theories is also that one of the lost Primarchs was a Psyker like Magnus was because all Primarchs seemed to have one with similar power set / skill focus and thus far there isn't a second one with Magnus' skill and capabilities in Psyker realm.

And that leaves one counterpart missing to Ferrus Manus also. There isn't another tech and tank focused Primarch like Manus out there either so one was also like Ferrus Manus in terms of skills / powers and focus.


Mortarion is also a psyker.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Perturabo was a very smart boy and was a brilliant architect. Sadly his skills at construction also made him the ideal siege leader. Combined with his loyalty, stubbornness and strong sense of duty, he accepted the role the Emperor placed him in. Those same characteristics are why he followed Horus for so long.
Spoiler:
He followed Horus until just after the Palace walls were breached at the Siege of Terra when he realised Horus was no better than the Emperor and abandoned the battle.
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut




 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
One of my favourite theories is also that one of the lost Primarchs was a Psyker like Magnus was because all Primarchs seemed to have one with similar power set / skill focus and thus far there isn't a second one with Magnus' skill and capabilities in Psyker realm.

And that leaves one counterpart missing to Ferrus Manus also. There isn't another tech and tank focused Primarch like Manus out there either so one was also like Ferrus Manus in terms of skills / powers and focus.
Vulkan and Perturabo are equal or better then Ferrus in regards to technology
   
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 Esmer wrote:
 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
One of my favourite theories is also that one of the lost Primarchs was a Psyker like Magnus was because all Primarchs seemed to have one with similar power set / skill focus and thus far there isn't a second one with Magnus' skill and capabilities in Psyker realm.

And that leaves one counterpart missing to Ferrus Manus also. There isn't another tech and tank focused Primarch like Manus out there either so one was also like Ferrus Manus in terms of skills / powers and focus.


Mortarion is also a psyker.

Albeit he is a rather weak psyker and his psyker powers seem more like a secondary addition to his primary power of toughness. Even Lorgar could get more out of his psyker powers.
   
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Well, whatever the lost primarchs did, it had to be worse than falling to Chaos and turning traitor. Not sure about Legion XI, but II?

The hints we have floating around are SPARSE... there's the notations in the books about "cursed Geneseed" that resulted in mutations, the Cursed Founding that used geneseed that resulted in every chapter having major issues (probably using that lost legion's geneseed), and that's about it.

But we can extrapolate a bit.

The greatest fear of the Emperor was that his creations would replace humanity. He didn't want a new generation of Humans Plus, he just wanted Humans, so when he made bio-weapons like the Thunder Warriors, he had plans to remove them and, more importantly, to keep them from EVER supplanting humanity.

There's one, and only one, person ever mentioned with a Primarch-ish name, with a dedicated following of warriors who do things above and beyond what others can, with a mysterious history and no evidence of them actually existing.

Athena.

There's an entire cult of warrior women dedicated to her, her wisdom, her martial talent, and who are hunted by the Imperium … one member of this outlawed cult is part of the Last Chancers, and you can find out more about her there, BUT, that's the other clue that leads to this:

One of the Lost primarchs was Athena, and she believed in women fighting. What if she had female marines, the oft-demanded, always-refused Holy Grail? What if she found a way to tweak Geneseed to have it work in women and when the Emperor found out, he FREAKED, because this would allow for marines to spawn a new Humanity, one that would replace his, and he not only had to stop this but had to make sure it was eradicated from the Imperial record to make sure no one else would ever try it again?

The survivors of her legion continue to keep her memory and legacy alive as the Cult of Athena, but absolutely no records of a Primarch by that name can be found.

Speculative, but it'd fit.
   
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Wakshaani wrote:
Well, whatever the lost primarchs did, it had to be worse than falling to Chaos and turning traitor. .

Not really. As Dysartes said, the Traitor Legions couldn't be deleted from records because they're still running around. Wiping them from Imperial memory would have left Imperial forces at a massive disadvantage in any conflict.


 
   
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It could also be because the events were traumatic and for once the Emperor felt real emotion to the point where the erasure of the records was the only way to handle it.
"Malcador, I'm feeling things. I don't like that. Remove them immediately".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 21:13:02


 
   
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Maybe the erasing of the records was to set an example to the other primarchs. Cross me and not only will I kill you, I will make it as though you never existed
   
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In terms of what can be lost across time.

Mankind has had the written word for around 5,000 years. A very cursory Google suggests Ancient Sumerian as the earliest known example.

Yet we have only the barest glimmering of historical facts going back that far.

Widespread literacy is even younger. So those able to read wielded a lot of power. The exact application of that power is not a thread suited to Dakka for reasons that should be obvious.

In terms of determined record keeping? Well, we’ve everything from Ancient Egyptian Heiroglyphs, Greek and Roman records, China and medieval sources.

And there are still ongoing scholarly debates as to the accuracy and veracity of those sources.

Hit the modern day, and we can handily refer to the very Interwebs we’re using for this conversation. See, it’s a repository of all mankind’s accumulated knowledge. It’s also a cesspit of cranks and deliberate misinformation, not to mention anti-intellectualism. Indeed there’s another solid argument the unprecedented access to information is a struggle for many, because older folks like myself were never taught how to parse so much information. Going further than that would also be a no-no on Dakka.

Now. The Imperium in 40K is a place of massive ignorance. It’s wilful, carefully engineered ignorance. Only the tiniest percentage of Imperial Citizens are literate. And even those that are don’t have the tools, sources or resources to challenge anything that they’re told.

Your education is abolsutely, 100% indoctrination. Your folk tales are derivatives of that indoctrination.

Each world is surprisingly isolated from the rest of the Imperium. Like medieval times, it’s incredibly rare for a citizen to live their lives outside a surprisingly small area, because the system they live in doesn’t require it.

If you’re born in a hive, then other than joining the IG, you’re gonna die there. And you’re ridiculously unlikely to meet an off worlder.

Hell, for most of the Imperium, the Space Marines are little more than myth. And due to the severity needed for their intentions, eye witnesses are going to be exceptionally few and far between.

The Primarchs even more so. The Heresy isn’t even acknowledged, the existence of Traitor Marines outright denied.

Even if there is a surviving stature of a Missing Primarch, say in the Underhive of Hive Primus? Nobody is going to know or particularly care who it was. It could be Arnold Bobbington, Primarch of the lost 2nd Legion. But nobody would know him from Adam, because the names of the Primarchs aren’t terribly important to anyone in the Underhive. And given how common statuary is, it might not even be all that impressive or noteworthy.

Never underestimate the base level of ignorance in 40K.

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