Switch Theme:

Heresy of the worst kind - let's make a "how to do it" poll!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






So, over in the Heresy of the worst kind thread The discussion rages on about whether female space marines should be a thing, and if you have thoughts on whether or not the change should happen, that's the place to be discussing it!

This thread is entirely about how to do it if it did happen. The goal is to make a poll with the most succinct options that we can put together, and then (once we have a reasonable agreement of the options) make it go live.

I don't want to make the poll until we have every option, and I'll do it in another thread in the general discussion forum to get traffic from the most people!

Currently the options I've seen are these:

1: Add the models, add some female pronouns, and don't touch the lore (except to remove anything disallowing female marines).
2: Amend the lore to suggest that this has been a thing since the start, and space marines have always included women.
3: Amend the lore to suggest that women have always been a thing, but that they look so similar to male marines that most people assume they are all men.
4: Add to the lore to say that Cawl found a way to make female candidates work with the marine-making process, so now there are female primaris marines.
5: Don't do it, leave marines as male.

Please add to this list if you have any other routes you'd like to see presented as options!

Additionally, I'll be making a poll on how to make the models themselves! Options thus far are:

1: Add female head options but leave the armour untouched
2: Add barely feminine features to some heads (and explain that they look more or less the same)
3: Add female heads & bodies which have slightly feminine features, like Stormcast.
4: Add obviously feminine heads & bodies
5: Don't add female marines

Remember, this is not a place to argue about the merits of the routes, only the wording and such! Any discussion about whether it should happen or not needs to be taken to the other thread!

Once suggestions stop coming in, I'll make a poll and we can see what everyone things a little clearer!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/12 15:21:44


12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Some posters suggested them to be like Stormcasts with female features present in the armour. I wouldn't like that but as you're collecting ideas...
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Some posters suggested them to be like Stormcasts with female features present in the armour. I wouldn't like that but as you're collecting ideas...


Well pointed out... perhaps this will need to be two polls, to avoid way too many options - how to do it in the lore, and how to do it in the models?

If it looks like too many options then I'll split it up!

I'll definitely be splitting it up!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 14:15:08


12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in ca
Poisonous Kroot Headhunter





I certainly think it would be doable lore wise. Malcaor did state to Dorn that he had advocated for the original marines to be all female instead of male, so we know it is technically possible; just not as it's done now.

I don't think that amending the lore is the way to go. It would be too inconsistent and too dumb to think all this history happened without a notable female marine taking part.

That being said, given how Cawl is set up, I could see him doing it in current 40k. HOWEVER, I don't think they should be "Space Marines" I would rather see them as Primaris esque options of the Sisters of Battle. Space Marines are already spoiled for choice on the tabletop (unless this is a visual upgrade only), and lore wise, it feels like a better fit to give the sisters that kind of fighting force, rather than the existing Space Marine chapters.

That's not to say you couldn't have some chapters go co-ed, but I think that's better as the exception and not the rule. I can see some chapters like the Space Wolves just flat out refusing, even if female space marines did become a thing that was broadly rolled out to the various chapters.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/09 18:48:37


17210 4965 3235 5350 2936 2273 1176 2675
1614 1342 1010 2000 960 1330 1040  
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Why do you see the Wolves refusing? They have strong ties with the tribes of Fenris where everyone has to be strong to survive and women are often hunters or warriors.
Also, Malcador suggested that some of the Primarchs should have been female, not the Marines.
And overall yes it should be an aesthetic choice, different unhelmeted head options, and the use of non-masculine pronouns. If you don't want to have female SM you don't have to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/09 18:53:51


 
   
Made in ca
Poisonous Kroot Headhunter





 Gert wrote:
Why do you see the Wolves refusing? They have strong ties with the tribes of Fenris where everyone has to be strong to survive and women are often hunters or warriors.
Also, Malcador suggested that some of the Primarchs should have been female, not the Marines.
And overall yes it should be an aesthetic choice, different unhelmeted head options, and the use of non-masculine pronouns. If you don't want to have female SM you don't have to.


Some of the Space Marine Chapters are very traditionalistic and set in their ways, I could see those just being apposed to massive change in general. Chapters like the Space Wolves or the Black Templar, maybe the Dark Angels? Where as the more adaptable and pragmatic chapters like the Ultramarines, Salamanders and Raven Guard would probably welcome the change.

Yeah, but I figured that was implied as the marines are based off the Primarch template. ie: The Marines all have to be male because the Primarchs are all male. I know it's more complex than that, but wasn't that the gist of it, or am I forgetting something?

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense to make new Space Marine units, but the Sisters could get some new units specific to them.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/09 20:55:35


17210 4965 3235 5350 2936 2273 1176 2675
1614 1342 1010 2000 960 1330 1040  
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




New York City

I like option 2 and option 1

I will forever remain humble because I know I could have less.
I will always be grateful because I remember I've had less. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

4 and 1, with some exceptions. I’d love to see some of the Sanguinary Guard have feminine armor similar to Stormcast feminine armor, and similar exceptions for appropriate characters or special elite units.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






This is probably close to one of the options, perhaps just more verbose. I think this would be easily accepted.

It looks closest to 3 with 2

For models, go similar to the new guard kit and offer upgrade sprues with faces that could be construed as being possibly female, but not necessarily as obviously female as Sisters heads..

For Lore add a story where a young girl exhibits courage against some xenos menace, and the Brothers ask if they think she might be worthy. She undergoes the transhumanization process, and the changes are so significant that she eventually no longer considers herself a "human" (male or female) but as an Astartes and all call each other "Brother".

While I realize this doesn't cut the mustard for those who want to see overtly female models on the table to try to attract female players, it would be an inclusion that would be relatively seamless with the existing lore

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/10 04:15:06


 
   
Made in us
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer





I personally think saying that it's possible with the introduction of Primaris marines to be the simplest and most effective way to introduce it to the lore without it being a retcon. If retcons don't matter to you, then they were always a thing. As for models, just include an extra few heads as female marine heads. I prefer helmeted models anyways, so it would mean nothing to me, as only a few marine chapters might do boob armor, as boob armor is purely decorative, so Blood Angels might have some fun with that. As most space marines are goal and efficiency oriented, they'd likely look the same outside of head options, so it's not much work.

‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
Made in fi
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






As for the minis, looking forward to the next 28 mag issue which will showcase female Space Marines (they have already announced they are looking for submissions to the article so we know its coming)
   
Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





Northumberland

No. 3 is the smartest choice really. Treat it like Pratchett's dwarves. Space marines are essentially androgynous due to the process and everyone is called brother. Both men and women have always been turned into marines just a few now are testing the waters with being slightly more feminine.

Best of both worlds, no need for too much crazy retcon. Also hey gender fluid is an added bonus to your giant walking tanks killing in the name of the Emperor.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
# Olthannon's Oscillating Orchard of Opportunity #

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'd go for something in line with options 2 & 4:
It was always possible, but was repressed and Cawl has rediscovered that it is possible.

Edit:
For the models, I'd go down the Stormcast route, option 3. Ideally, a simple headswap would still be possible too, giving more options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/10 09:36:08


 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





I kind of like 4, Cawl finds a back up of himself he made before the Big E wiped the 2nd and 11th and mind jiggled everyone (cos 2 and 11 was lady marines ofc) so its always been possible its just the petulant bag of bones on the throne didnt like it

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Maybe 4, and 5s

   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

4, best option to keep folk happy and give them options not to do it if they want and doesn’t mess with all the Hersey fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for models, just a head swap needed. Nothing more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/11 13:16:48


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





1, 2, and/or 4.

1 is the one I like most - with modification. In much the same way as grav guns, Centurions, Stormtalons, etc etc are introduced and just *exist*, I would have no issue with doing that with women Astartes. No need for any lore stuff beyond decanonising anything that said "only men can be Astartes".
When it says "don't touch the lore", I don't agree with that part so much. Keep the lore "as is", except anything that explicitly disallows women Astartes (ie, the now-obscure Creation of a Space Marine text), and that's good for me, I think.

2 is complicated. On one hand, "amending" the lore to have always included women Astartes sounds nice on paper, but there's a LOT of books with Astartes in them, and the absence of canonised women Astartes in them could be conspicuous. I think it would be very impractical to rewrite lots of Space Marines books to have women Astartes in them retroactively, so unless GW were to simply just make a statement saying "yeah, some aspects of our older stuff isn't quite canon any more"*, I would perhaps say no to this.

Similarly, 4 is a mixed bag. It has a degree of verisimilitude to it, and allows older lore to stay "canon"*. It also provides a further degree of difference and uniqueness to the Primaris compared to the Firstborn, if that was an angle we wanted to look down. However, the issues I have with 4 are really twofold:
One - that it still prevents women Space Marines in the Heresy, or any time period pre-Indomitus Crusade. That means no women Astartes at Baal, or the Tyrannic Wars, or Armageddon, or so on. It also means that you're still kinda limited in terms of modelling - it restricts women Astartes to only being Primaris, so if you wanted your Tactical Marines to have women, you're out of luck (obviously, you *can* model your Astartes how you like, but when an overriding concern is how people can use the lore to tell you that your own models are "wrong", the point stands).
Two - it creates a potential impression that the lore matters more than representation, and that real people are a secondary concern, compared to the fictional setting.


Overall, if I had to rank preference, I go with a modified 1 (don't change the lore, just remove exclusionary bits), then 4, then 2.


*this, of course, isn't to say that this already isn't the case! Plenty of older 40k books break "modern" canon standards, because the setting has changed. I seem to remember that Ian Watson's Space Marine has many sections that are incongruous now with modern 40k, but is still sold - though I think the last time GW referenced it, they outright said "yeah, this isn't exactly modern 40k, but hey, read it anyway".

EDIT: as for the models, option 1, all the way. The armour is gender-neutral enough that anyone could realistically be in it, and you'd only know from the bare head anyway. So yeah, just have feminine-presenting heads, and that'll do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/11 14:16:12



They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Four.

Expand on the older lore. The original SM project was unfinished, the scattering of thr primarchs buggered the Emperors plans. He had to make do with limited data/materials and due to time constraints, needed soldiers now to.conquer terra and to be ready for when the warpstorms abated and the Great Crusade could begin. That's why the original marines were all male. He couldn't complete the project at the time.

And fair enough, he figured he'd have plenty time to fix it, even started tinkering with the idea. Unfortunately horus wanted to be Emperor instead of the Emperor and the galaxy burned.

The few remaining loyalist primarchs find out about the project after the big e is put on his throne and decide it must be completed, it will offer them an edge over their traitorous kin. Unfortunately so much knowledge was destroyed they're limited in what they can do. They turn to cawl and ask him to complete the emperors work.

And the primaris releases to dare were only a part of his plans.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Someone in the other thread suggested that female SM could have been created during the 21st Founding when the High Lords tried to fix problems with gene-seed. I think that the idea of a Magos removing the need for male hosts but their findings being suppressed and the Chapter sent into a super-secret mission is pretty cool. Cawl could find this Mago's data and the Chapter could return to Imperium having completed their impossible task.
That way there's no retcon, just additions that make sense within the setting, and players could have Firstborn or Primaris options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/11 15:41:24


 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

My preferred way is the fluff for women in my own home brew chapter.

They were a new chapter and didn’t get the memo that it was guys only, so went ahead and picked the best candidates regardless of gender and found it work as well if not better on women. Only later when they met more traditional chapters they heard the whole “women can’t be marines” bull and we’re like, “yeah they can, look!”

And turns out the emperor was a d!ck and didn’t like women so banned it.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Well, it sounds like we've not got any other options to add (I've amended option 1 to reflect removing anything countering female marines), so I'll go ahead and post up a Poll in the general forum to see what people think!

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I vastly prefer #1.
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






I'd say number 5 for me, but I'm also somewhat partial to number 3 if it's done well.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Tawnis wrote:

That's not to say you couldn't have some chapters go co-ed, but I think that's better as the exception and not the rule. I can see some chapters like the Space Wolves just flat out refusing, even if female space marines did become a thing that was broadly rolled out to the various chapters.

Space Wolves may very well be the first ones to accept it, according to some blurbs from some Black Library books where a female warrior asks Arjac Rockfist why she can't be a Space Marine and he says "uh, tradition, I guess?" and thinks to himself that it's probably possible

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

Rihgu wrote:
Tawnis wrote:

That's not to say you couldn't have some chapters go co-ed, but I think that's better as the exception and not the rule. I can see some chapters like the Space Wolves just flat out refusing, even if female space marines did become a thing that was broadly rolled out to the various chapters.

Space Wolves may very well be the first ones to accept it, according to some blurbs from some Black Library books where a female warrior asks Arjac Rockfist why she can't be a Space Marine and he says "uh, tradition, I guess?" and thinks to himself that it's probably possible



I agree, wolves leading the way works for me.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: