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Ok, so first things first:

Discussions about whether this should or should not happen have already been had and the topic was closed!

So please, do not use this thread to continue the discussion, as the Mods said, the conversation was only going in circles at this point.

If anybody ignores this and tries to start up the argument, please ignore it and don't respond. Please. Just leave this for voting!

Out of that discussion (found here) we have gotten a few options for how to add female marines, which have been discussed enough to be considered viable, IE they all had at least one person who was adamant that it was the best way, so they are all getting an airing here to see what the majority of people think.

If you do post in this thread, keep it as a description of your vote and your reasoning. Do Not Argue Against Other Peoples Decisions or Reasons.. Your post is only to voice your opinions on the vote, and not your opinion on other people's decisions.

I will be opening another thread on The Lore, which will cover the lore justification/reasoning of the change (how they fit into the universe) and not the models themselves. Please vote in both!

Given what the Space Marine process entails, I would say include female heads and use the same bodies. After all that work, and with such thick armour, there really won't be much of a trace of the original body shape left. And yes, I would also go for short-cropped hair, for the typical practical reasons. That would give a badass look.

Heads only, please. For everything else there's Sororitas already and we don't need even more Marine kits. I like the idea of adding female Marines, but I don't want the faction to take even more releases because of that.

I voted "just heads", but heads and slightly feminine torsos would also be OK for me. I don't collect marines so it's more from an outside point of view. My reason would mostly be that they should still look different enough from sisters of silence/battle.

In theory a set of slightly feminine bodies would be nice to give Marine collectors more space for variation in their army (optically), but I would be a bit concerned if GW would feel the "need" to bring out a whole range of SM bodies again before refreshing the outdated models in other factions. If they can do both: good enough for me, bring heads and bodies and let everyone do their thing.

The poll is missing an option: "don't change the models".

The existing marine heads are entirely suitable for a girl who has been bio-engineered into a 500lb slab of vat grown muscle and testosterone - there is no reason that the process would stop at the neck, especially given the young age of recruits.

There is ultimately a difference between having female space marines and 'feminine' space marines. Particularly at the 28mm scale there is only so much you can do, 3rd party heads tend to have slimmer jaws and softer features which give them a female appearance but not that of a testosterone-poisoned gene warrior.

After all that bio engineering, training and being encased in thick armour, there should be no difference between a male or female marine body. Only the heads need updating.
These can include all types of feminine heads/hair (Don't the blood angels and space wolves have some long haired heads?) but should mostly be scarred buzz cut types.

If you're going with the justification that physiologically they're identical, it makes very little sense for the heads to show clear feminine features.

did you really need to make two fething posts devoted to this?

BrianDavion wrote:
did you really need to make two fething posts devoted to this?

Until it's possible to make two polls in one post, yes.

It was either that or have 20 options in the poll, for each combination of lore & models.

Just the heads. I did some with Statuesque heads and they look fine. I don't want marines to be overtly gendered like the Stormcast are.

I voted with "don't add female marines".

And here is why I voted like this:

The 40K hobby is a miniature hobby. You add no new content to it by creating a new faction which look like the SOB which are women in power armour.

And what about adding a few women to the original SM chapters? I think this will be such a HUGE retcon that a lot of hobbyists will ragequit. Lol! Chapters have been presented as brotherhoods in the past and I don't think GW will ever change their cash cow in such a fundamental way.

 Strg Alt wrote:
I voted with "don't add female marines".

And here is why I voted like this:

The 40K hobby is a miniature hobby. You add no new content to it by creating a new faction which look like the SOB which are women in power armour.

And what about adding a few women to the original SM chapters? I think this will be such a HUGE retcon that a lot of hobbyists will ragequit. Lol! Chapters have been presented as brotherhoods in the past and I don't think GW will ever change their cash cow in such a fundamental way.

You dont get it. The aim is to create female space marines that are almost indistinguishable both lore wise and model wise from the current male space marines. This is the only way in which the 40K community will be free from misoginist harrasment and death threats.

i voted heads though I run only helmeted marines in my collection so woudl make zero difference to me. I also don't think the figure for the body should be any different. these are pre puberty humans who get augmented and built as pure genetically changed soldier losing all reproductive ability. to me a female and male space marine are basically the same when they come out of the process

The objection to female marines is never "ew women". The objection has always been, and ever shall remain "it is established canon that there are not female marines, therefore your female marines are wrong".
It's no different to someone telling you you shouldn't have male SoB, or blue Orks, or whatever.

Yes, some people react a little too strongly to the idea of female space marines. But when you start by saying they must be a horrible misogynist for not liking the idea, you've already got their back up.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The objection to female marines is never "ew women". The objection has always been, and ever shall remain "it is established canon that there are not female marines, therefore your female marines are wrong".
It's no different to someone telling you you shouldn't have male SoB, or blue Orks, or whatever.

Yes, some people react a little too strongly to the idea of female space marines. But when you start by saying they must be a horrible misogynist for not liking the idea, you've already got their back up.

Therefore you change the lore and the models in the most measured possible manner and suddenly all this issue disapears. Food for thought.

People don't like retcons, especially when it's something that's been so integral to their army for so long.
Yes, I would say the concept of "Battle Brother" is pretty intrinsic to Astartes lore.

That's why I said the only viable way to introduce this would be "Cawl did it". It wouldn't be popular, but it's be passable, in very much the same way the original Primaris were.

Why would you need any difference in models?

They would look the exact same and should be wearing helmets anyway lol. Putting a female through the program would make just another standard looking SM. You just lose out on SM shouting brother every other word in the lore.

Think the whole fm convo is dumb, but if you stand across me and say you're primaris or first born are female, all power too you. I don't know why the hobby needs to add more then that

 kirotheavenger wrote:
People don't like retcons, especially when it's something that's been so integral to their army for so long.
Yes, I would say the concept of "Battle Brother" is pretty intrinsic to Astartes lore.

That's why I said the only viable way to introduce this would be "Cawl did it". It wouldn't be popular, but it's be passable, in very much the same way the original Primaris were.

But the Primaris were created to sell new models. Here the aim is that models remain the same (apart from, perhaps, a new head sprue similar to the recent AM one).

Also, are you sure that the people that dont like retcons arent in fact misogynists?

Would it be such a problem to speak about "Battle Siblings" after all?

The easiest way, that also makes GW the most $ from those wanting FM SM:

Ok, here's your primaris upgrade spues each sold separately of course).
Sprue A - contains 10 fm heads & torsos for Intercessors.
Spue B - same, but for phobos armor.
Sprue C - and a Sprue for gravis....

Characters of course get complete models at about a $45/$50 price tag per.
To help drive sales though each character comes with ALL the weapon/gear options, thus appealing to all SM players.

Battle siblings sounds less cool, it lacks the alliteration.
If you don't want new models, why do you want this?

I did this recently. Statuesque Techno Roider head. I think it looks good.



I don't need female marines to look any more feminine than this.

She looks great

Brickfix wrote:
She looks great

That model would look good with any head swap. Doesn't matter which one. You can get away with Genestealer Hybrid, Ork or Eldar.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Battle siblings sounds less cool, it lacks the alliteration.
If you don't want new models, why do you want this?

The aim is to create female space marines that are almost indistinguishable both lore wise and model wise from the current male space marines. This is the only way in which the 40K community will be free from misoginist harrasment and death threats.

You said that before, I don't think it's true.
I've already addressed it, it's mischaracterisation and hyperbole.

Vatsetis wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Battle siblings sounds less cool, it lacks the alliteration.
If you don't want new models, why do you want this?

The aim is to create female space marines that are almost indistinguishable both lore wise and model wise from the current male space marines. This is the only way in which the 40K community will be free from misoginist harrasment and death threats.

I think you're overstating how much of an impact that would make. It's not like these people in the community suddenly disappear the moment any type of female representation exists within marines. The fact that they are present at all when there are already existing female-only or mixed gender factions means that it's likely less to do with the setting and more of a general human thing where you can have crazies from any fandom. You're always to going to have some measure of toxicity/bad apples in a community, especially nowadays online thanks to anonymity.

Personally I think this thread is just gonna be doomed from the start. The previous thread was successfully derailed and locked, and the folks that got that to happen are just going to come in here for a little victory lap around the chessboard, cooing and celebrating their victory.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Personally I think this thread is just gonna be doomed from the start. The previous thread was successfully derailed and locked, and the folks that got that to happen are just going to come in here for a little victory lap around the chessboard, cooing and celebrating their victory.

yup, they will ignore the premise and we will have people that for some reason care that the genitals on all their plastic space soldiers match vs the other end where SJWs will claim this is personally attacking them or a certain group rather than reading the topic and actually addressing that or *gasp* choosing to not engage as they have nothing to add to it.

i think the cawl primaris was the best point but going forward he could still discover that the rubricon works on female children as well and boom problem solved.

From a product perspective you risk homogenization of ranges, and cannibalism of interest by adding females to marines.

By having the ranges be more unique you offer up a clear and distinct design style that may appeal more acutely to a demographic. When you start to add that to other ranges you make it increasingly less likely that customers will buy into other parts of the range because they may be sufficiently satisfied by the current offerings.

I think having separate fantasies and identities between the ranges is very, very important, and this decision would undermine that.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
From a product perspective you risk homogenization of ranges, and cannibalism of interest by adding females to marines.

In what way?

Seriously, Sisters of Battle are different enough from "female marines" that I can't see anybody who would be interested in them and their unique aesthetic to go, "but, oh, these female space marines, they're so similar, how can I choose!?"

I mean, we can see it in action already, with people already not picking Sisters of Battle and instead converting their own Female Space Marines. If what you said was a high risk, these people would just be playing Sisters of Battle instead.