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Poll
How should female marines be added to the lore?
Add female pronouns and remove anything denying female marines, otherwise leave it untouched.
Amend the lore to suggest that space marines have always included women
Amend the lore to suggest space marines have always included women, but they look like the men, so are usually mistaken for male marines
Add to the lore to say that Cawl found a way to make the process work for women
Don't add female marines.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Ok, so first things first:

Discussions about whether this should or should not happen have already been had and the topic was closed!

So please, do not use this thread to continue the discussion, as the Mods said, the conversation was only going in circles at this point.

If anybody ignores this and tries to start up the argument, please ignore it and don't respond. Please. Just leave this for voting!

Out of that discussion (found here) we have gotten a few options for how to add female marines, which have been discussed enough to be considered viable, IE they all had at least one person who was adamant that it was the best way, so they are all getting an airing here to see what the majority of people think.

If you do post in this thread, keep it as a description of your vote and your reasoning. Do Not Argue Against Other Peoples Decisions or Reasons.. Your post is only to voice your opinions on the vote, and not your opinion on other people's decisions.

I will be opening another thread on The Models, which will cover the physical aspect of what the models look like and not the lore justification on it. Please vote in both!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 09:12:55


12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Poll is missing trans space marines
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

Out of curiocity, why DONT there exist female space marines in the lore?

Is it because of the whole gene seed thing with primarchs being only men and thus not working for females? space marine lore isnt really my forté as i play orks. so i have no idea

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 08:44:02


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Apple fox wrote:
So the emperor was kinda just dumb, I think it’s a great lore point. The effective eternal leader of the imperium being sexist fits the setting well enough.


I'm pro female space marines (because why would the imperium turn down any meat for the grinder?) but I like this reasoning, as long as it is explicit. Also, would give a nice contrast for having Primaris female space marines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 13:36:16


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Beardedragon wrote:
Out of curiocity, why DONT there exist female space marines in the lore?
Originally? They were convicts inducted into convents - brainwashed homicidal space monks. The lore changed a bit into space romans and the primarchs but aspects of the monk/monastery stuff remained, band of brothers, etc.

I don't think there is anything in the early books stating that marines had to be male, there just wasn't the same push for anachronistic representation in the 80s. By the time anyone cared all the marines were mini-mes of the primarchs.


The space nuns had their own distinct range and lore - the adepta sororitas.


Apple fox wrote:
So the emperor was kinda just dumb, I think it’s a great lore point.
It would be, if you could find it anywhere in the lore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 09:15:17


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

The current justification is that the female physiology can't take the modifications, primarily due to lack of testosterone.
I also think that, since Astartes recruit from the very top percentile of physical prowess, the nature of normal distribution means that the number of women in that percentile is close to zero anyway.

If you were to add them, the only real way is to say "Cawl waved his magic wand again", which is pretty boring by now.
   
Made in eu
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Southampton, UK

Wasn't it just that the genome changes that made people into space marines were on the Y chromosome?

Regardless of the exact mechanism, I think it's been a specific part of the lore for so long that you can't really just hand-wave it away and say "No, there's always been female space marines, you just can't tell under the armour" or anything like that. I'd go for Cawl finding a way to do it - could just be something like the Primaris process is slightly different to the original marine process, and you know what? Turns out it works on the ladies too...
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Umbros wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
So the emperor was kinda just dumb, I think it’s a great lore point. The effective eternal leader of the imperium being sexist fits the setting well enough.


I'm pro female space marines (because why would the imperium turn down any meat for the grinder?) but I like this reasoning, as long as it is explicit. Also, would give a nice contrast for having Primaris female space marines.



I think it’s fine that most or all known chapters keep up tradition, as it creates a bit more of a imperium that’s it’s own worst enemy at times feel.
Cowl letting slip that it could be easy to implement to others in his close cercle could be fun as well.

Of corse I would like to see more presence in the other factions to drive home this in the space marines, and would be cool for other factions to get some look at evening them out with stronger troops. Sisters of silence where a good place

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 13:37:21


 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Or we could not, stop the whole forced attempt at diversification.

Instead, sit down and finally make guard and xeno and chaos armies represent the diversity and total type warfare of the setting better as already established in their already existing background, get better guard, chaos guard and xeno model representation too boot and leave it at that? (nvm that we might get boxes that are actually potentially worth gw's asking price because you now get atleast 2 -3 heads per model per box?)

We would also get a whole slew of better spread releases for a whole slew of factions which didn't have much time in the sun so to speak that way?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
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In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in fr
Been Around the Block





I think they missed a big opportunity there when they released the Primaris... They did well with the Sigmarines on the AoS side of things, and could have gone with "male-only on the initial batch was a crutch because the Emperor was short on time so he went the quick way (testosterone dependency for the initial set of implants)", and Cawl improved on this design because he had a couple extra millenia to work.

Now that they missed this opportunity, I think it would be a bit difficult to fit in the lore without a huge retcon... That's why I'll vote No on Female Marines on the Lore side, not because I'm against it per se, but because GW let the boat sail and I think the positive (more diverse Astartes) would be, in this case, outweighted by the negative (size of the retcon needed to introduce it).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 09:30:26


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




And that's a problem how? 40k is rife with retcons at all levels, the only people who really care about lore purity are fans, GW changes lore at a whim.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




I really think female space marines comes up more as a bit of a silly roll the eyes at nerds media.
Basically most people I have seen discussion wise understand the idea of a brotherhood or sisterhood style faction. The issue is that so often in nerd media, it’s basically every faction.
With representative diversity being more pandering to those same people than as some really for others.
And often it’s crap design issues on top of that, other factions having good support allows space marines to be unique.
The other issue is that in 40k women can’t be strong, since it’s even rarer for a necrons and other factions to have any female character reference.
GW getting better, but they still stuck way behind.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





GW actually hasn't answered the issue, people suggest testestrone may be a part of it mostly due to inferance. Right now we know Space Marines recruit from juvinile boys, and the process begins around 12-14 years of age. this is, as you know doubt know about the age puberty kicks in among boys.
Part of the process of creating a space marine results in the subject putting on both height and muscle mass, this is ALSO part of male puberty.

We also know that the surgery on adult males was doable (at least during the heresy era) but had a MUCH MUCH higher chance of going wrong.

So, whats the take away from this? my theory is that the changes imposed on a human body during the process of creating an Astartes are great, and puts considerable stress on the body, leading to increased likelyhood of rejection and complications. You can REDUCE these factors considerably by using a body already primed for a dramatic short term gain in size and muscle mass, such as a boy about to enter puberty, in the middle of puberty or having just finished it.
This means that female space marines are theoreticly possiable, but the odds are stacked so far against them it's not seen as worthwile doing. especially as given that one also needs to be geneticly compatable with the geneseed, women are better off being kept in the population to ensure those genetic markers aren't completely removed.


Or at least that's my attempt to provide a pseudo-scientific reason for it. if that doesn't work for you... maybe the emperor was just sexist

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






I did vote "Cawl did it" but at the same time there's already a possibility for Firstborn female SM. The 21st Founding was an attempt by the High Lords to fix problems with gene-seed. What if a Magos fixed the compatibility issue with female hosts? A Chapter is created with both male and female SM but due to the political ramifications, the Magos is disappeared and the Chapter is sent on an impossible task in the depths of space. Cawl finds this Magos' data and the original Chapter returns battered but successful in their impossible task.
   
Made in gb
Sister Oh-So Repentia




United Kingdom

There needs to be a very good reason beyond 'just cus'.

It would be prejudicial to deny female marines simply because a person doesn't want/like women in their game, but it would also be prejudicial to include them just because it would meet a standard of representation.

I'm also not sure how this would interact with Sisters of Battle and Silence. Maybe it wouldn't be a problem at all; bloat and redundancy aren't exactly alien to GW and their games.

Personally I would like to see some engaging and interesting lore written to allow for it, but I don't know if that's even achievable (and, as a whole, 40k lore isn't exactly the crème de la crème of lore).

I would certainly be interested to see someone try, without resorting to a cheap shorthand or deus ex machina.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 09:59:08


   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





There used to be female Space Marine models in the old old days. Hideous sculpts but female marines did exist, as well as in some of the more obscure lore.

Then at some point everything got retconned and Space Marines became toys for boys and it got stuck like that to the point that GW is probably afraid of changing it due to potential backlash from certain segment of players. Thankfully they managed to steer Stormcast away from doing the same mistake so AoS has become a much more diverse and friendly hobby for new people entering it.

Personally I would think it is great to add some women into the Space Marine chapters, but I won't be holding my breath for it. Instead I'll just model my marines as female Marines(a head switch does wonders, especially with the cool female heads from Stormcast kits.

In the end the models are yours to do with as you please so if you an all women Space Marine Chapter and are willing to model it as such then by all means do.

-Primary Armies -
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- Secondary Armies -
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Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

As far as I'm aware female space marines never officially existed. They featured as a segment in what was essentially a fan magazine, but have never been featured by GW.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

From a lore point of view I see no reason to change it.

From a model POV you wouldn't see a difference anyway.

From a "diversity" POV I see it as unnecessary as asking for male Sisters of Battle. Plenty of space in every other army to introduce opposite-sex models without the need to change the lore.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




'Cawl did it'.

Every model made needs to be anchored in the lore. The lore currently states 'male only'. Therefore a retcon of 'ha! They were always there!' or else a change in the 'modern 40k era' is required. I'm.wary of retcons and imo 'they were always there' is lazy.

So...

Expand on the older lore. Something along the lines of it was always intended however
the original SM project was unfinished as the scattering of the primarchs buggered the Emperors plans. He had to make do with limited data/materials and due to time constraints, needed soldiers now to conquer terra and to be ready for when the warpstorms abated and the Great Crusade could begin. That's why the original marines were all male. He couldn't complete the project at the time.

And fair enough, he figured he'd have plenty time to fix it, even started tinkering with the idea. Unfortunately horus wanted to be Emperor instead of the Emperor and the galaxy burned.

The few remaining loyalist primarchs find out about the project after the big e is put on his throne and decide it must be completed, it will offer them an edge over their traitorous kin.


Unfortunately so much knowledge was destroyed they're limited in what they can do. They turn to cawl and ask him to complete the emperors work.And the primaris releases to dare were only a part of his plans.

In the meantime the limitations of the 'old system' get turned into dogma that cannon be questioned, aside from cawl, the original plan is forgotten and thus,the current 'vision's of Space marines.




greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Now what did I say?

Hint:

If anybody ignores this and tries to start up the argument, please ignore it and don't respond. Please. Just leave this for voting!

If you do post in this thread, keep it as a description of your vote and your reasoning. Do Not Argue Against Other Peoples Decisions or Reasons.. Your post is only to voice your opinions on the vote, and not your opinion on other people's decisions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 13:40:11


12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Eldarsif wrote:
There used to be female Space Marine models in the old old days. Hideous sculpts but female marines did exist, as well as in some of the more obscure lore.
They were part of the 'adventurers' line rather than the marines. Back in RT power armour wasn't a marine only thing, nor were they significantly bio-enhanced (the black carapace was literally black plastic armour bonded to their torso).

They were men because they were space monks rather than space nuns, and that's about as far as rogue trader went lore wise.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Cawl did it. After the rift robbed the Imperium of half of its worlds it's in a really bad spot. So Cawl found a way to enable recruitment from about 50% more of the Population.

I wouldn't even be opposed to Chaos/Fabius Bile doing the first step and Cawl copying from him. "Oh look, dem Chaos dudes made it work on women, that thought never crossed me in 10K years!" the Lords of Terra might be even more grumpy about him but who cares when Roboute approves.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Wunzlez wrote:
There needs to be a very good reason beyond 'just cus'.

Cuz was good enough reason to make them male, i see no reason to need better reason than cuz to involve the other 50% of human race.
   
Made in gb
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle





Voted "Always been female marines".
Reason: Given that gender difference has never been relevant to Space Marine lore, it is a change that demands no explanation.

I always find the appeal to biology so peculiar. Most generally, biological realities provide no necessary constraints on fictional contexts. All the less so in a science fiction setting. All but none in a setting of space magic.

Space Marines already represent a tremendous departure from biological necessity. They are ficitonal beings. Does that mean that we can attribute anything to them? Yes. Does that mean we reasonably should? No. What must stay the same? The essence of a Space Marine. What is the essence of a Space Marine? They're super soldiers! Does gender have any purchase on the concept of a super soldier? Nope. So go hard!

Death Guard: 6000pts
Sisters of Battle: 1750pts 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





I voted for don't include as I can't see a lore friendly way for them to be added. (Not that this stopped GW before; i.e. from having the IoM suddenly rediscover hover tech) and I really really don't like the "it was like this all along" type explanations.

If they HAD to be included, then I'd vote for Add to the lore to say that Cawl found a way to make the process work for women, with the specific note that big E never tried this particularly hard because he's a short sighted sexist. I.e. tie it into one of his many flaws.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






For me personally retcon 'they always were there' would be fine. I am really not fanatically committed to the fluff minutiae, and things have gotten retconned before. However, 'Cawl did it' would probably be better received. He gave marines three new organs, so hacking this stuff work on women really shouldn't be a big deal.

   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





Voted Don't Add.

Like it or not a big part of space marine identity beyond big shoulderpads is the brotherhood of warrior monks. If you want diversity convert some female IG/GSC/Eldar or start a Sisters army. Or feth it, we'll just turn everything in a giant grey blob you can project whatever you want onto. That works right?


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






And come to think of it, when was the last time 'marines are male only' was explicitly stated in a codex? I don't think current one says that, and it might not have said that for several editions. So were I a complete noob, and picked up a marine codex I wouldn't necessarily conclude the female marines are a literal impossibility. Like sure, they are not mentioned and models look like males, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. After all, pretty much all guard models used to be male until recently too.

So perhaps we could just consider 'marines must always be male' to be phased out old fluff like half-eldar marines or Space Wolves being cool?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 12:36:56


   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






The only gendered language used in the "Creation of a SM" section is "Gene-Sons".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 12:39:24


 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




UK

How best to add female marines:

Current setting, a symbiotic relationship exists between IoM and the Adeptus Astartes - marines cannot procreate so need humans for recruits, humans are too weak to survive in the galaxy at constant war, so need space marines to conquest and defend IoM territory (one cannot survive without the other).

There is no logical reason why magic future space tech cannot make a female space marine, so Cawl once again one-ups the Emperor and invents a female marine creation process.

Fast forward a few millenia, new Imperial civil war breaks out as the marine population has expanded to the point it is competing with humans for resources and marine loyalties are now contested between loyalty to the Emperor and family ties. Instead of defending humanity, marines instead inevitably win the war and enslave humans, becoming a literal master race.

   
 
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