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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





It's been a while since we've had a balance discussion and there were a good number of GTs this past weekend to reflect upon.

DE came in with a respectable 58% WR, but that's behind "Chaos", BT, WS, and Eldar. That's also far behind the mighty AdMech @ 77%.

Spoiler:


The top tables:

Spoiler:
Gibraltar GT. 62 Players. 6 Rounds.

Ad Mec 6-0
Drukhari 5-1
Ad Mec 5-1
Dark Angels 5-1
Drukhari 5-1
Thousand Sons 5-1
Ad Mec 4-1-1 (Made Final Table)
Drukhari 4-1-1
Drukhari 4-2
White Scars 4-2

Chaos Storm GT. Indianapolis, IN. 50 players. 5 Rounds.

Ad Mec 5-0
Dark Angels 5-0
Chaos Daemons 4-1 (Made Final Table)
Slaanesh 4-1
Iron Hands 4-1
Iron Hands 4-1
Dark Angels 4-1
Aeldari 4-1

Bold City Freedom Fisticuff GT. Jacksonville, FL. 36 players. 5 Rounds
.
Ad Mec 5-0
Sisters 4-1
Ultramarines 4-1
Imperial Knights 4-1 (Made Final Table)
Imperial Knights 4-1
Aeldari 4-1

Victorian Throwdown. West Branch, MI. 31 players. 5 Rounds

Dark Angels 5-0
Ad Mec 5-0
White Scars 4-1
Death Guard (Made Final Table) 4-1
Chaos 4-1


As you can see there's a lot of Admech on top, but there's also a large variety of other armies -- WS, DA, DG, Chaos, Eldar, IK, UM, Sisters, IH, Slaanesh, TS, DE.

Still, something needs to be done.

The changes to DE were very light, but seem to have had the right impact overall. What's the lightest touch you think you could give to Admech to bring them back into line?

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Nahhhhhhh I think DE still need some points nerfs and they're only held down by the frankly extreme hard-counter that is current competitive admech builds.

Dark lances 5pts up, dissies 5pts down, give a couple units like hellions and wyches and incubi a light points boop, and get rid of the stupid, unnecessary Blade Artists rule. Just...no reason to have ever added that crap.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

Death Guard at 44%, Dark Angels at 49%, Necrons at 36%. Big oof.

I said it in the other thread. DE at 58% is an improvement, but they got shoved out of the way by an insane AdMech codex. I don't think that means exactly the same as "the nerfs were perfect". Let's put it this way, if we get some feather-light nerf to AdMech and some new book (probably not Orks, I don't think they're that pushed) displaces them at 75%, do you all think those 3 armies above are all of a sudden healthy again?

(Obvious disclaimer that one week of bad win rates for factions doesn't mean so much. But it's something to keep looking at.)

ETA to the thread question: modest points increases on the big offenders, delete Enriched Rounds as a strat (I wouldn't even mess with the CP changes or changing it to auto-wound on 5s), nerf the Lucius trait. Like Goonhammer said, the issue with AdMech is that they're sort of the opposite as DE; with DE, everything is pretty good. With AdMech, you can build casual fluffy lists without taking the degenerate interactions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 17:02:19


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Death Guard at 44%, Dark Angels at 49%, Necrons at 36%. Big oof.

Drukhari and Admech would be pretty rough matchups for these armies even if the books weren't overtuned, I think. Lots of ways to naturally ignore the durability of the durability armies.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

I appreciate the work put in to consolidate the armies and we can see a trend with some armies, but the sample size is really small, even more so for some specific factions.

Mostly I agree with warranted changes for Dhurkari and AdMech.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
Nahhhhhhh I think DE still need some points nerfs and they're only held down by the frankly extreme hard-counter that is current competitive admech builds.

Dark lances 5pts up, dissies 5pts down, give a couple units like hellions and wyches and incubi a light points boop, and get rid of the stupid, unnecessary Blade Artists rule. Just...no reason to have ever added that crap.


I think those are common sense changes, but then we're talking about DE eliminating all Lances with a 40ish point hit or taking a 80 to 120ish point hit on their lists, which seems high to me.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





I think we need to dumpster "winrate" as the all important statistic.

% chance to go undefeated or have 1 loss is the metric we should really care about. It is the true measure of what is a problem.

As a baseball buff we have all sorts of statistics to break players down and measure ability. We need more data from the data collectors.

Example.
Avg victory points discrepancy.
+15/-15
Avg attrition score
+/- points spread on the table at the end of the game.
% chance to place top 8 against the field.

I'd be really interested in data like this. Though with an army approaching 80% wins - I would argue that the army can really only lose when your opponent has really great luck...or when you have really bad luck. It is clear that ad mech are probably the worst example of unbalance this edition has seen thus far.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Nahhhhhhh I think DE still need some points nerfs and they're only held down by the frankly extreme hard-counter that is current competitive admech builds.

Dark lances 5pts up, dissies 5pts down, give a couple units like hellions and wyches and incubi a light points boop, and get rid of the stupid, unnecessary Blade Artists rule. Just...no reason to have ever added that crap.


I think those are common sense changes, but then we're talking about DE eliminating all Lances with a 40ish point hit or taking a 80 to 120ish point hit on their lists, which seems high to me.

It is really not high. Raiders should be in the 120 to 130 range for what they do - compare them to literally any other transport. Also - army wide advance and charge should not exist. IMO advance and charge is the biggest issue - that rule is free.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/20 17:47:54


 
   
Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Nahhhhhhh I think DE still need some points nerfs and they're only held down by the frankly extreme hard-counter that is current competitive admech builds.

Dark lances 5pts up, dissies 5pts down, give a couple units like hellions and wyches and incubi a light points boop, and get rid of the stupid, unnecessary Blade Artists rule. Just...no reason to have ever added that crap.


I think those are common sense changes, but then we're talking about DE eliminating all Lances with a 40ish point hit or taking a 80 to 120ish point hit on their lists, which seems high to me.


Raiders I think are still a problem, and the best solution is to just up the Dark Lances. They are still punching far above their weight for how much they offer, and making the best weapon on them a little more expensive seems like a good solution to me.

That being said, I like the goonhammer tweaks: https://www.goonhammer.com/what-to-do-about-admech/ With those and the Dark lance changes, I think we'd probably be in good shape. One thing to keep in mind that before new Ad Mech were really taking top tables and post-Drukhari Nerfs, Drukhari were at something like a 63% winrate. As commented earlier, the only real thing keeping them down is Ad Mech right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 18:10:04


4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
:Necron: Necron Discord: https://discord.com/invite/AGtpeD4  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Drukhari are only down to 58% because ad mech stomp them, nerf Ad Mech down to where they should be and Drukhari will pop back up to mid 60s.

The whole situation is such an own-goal balance disaster that GW has brought upon itself. It's just so unfortunate. People were seriously talking about a "Golden Age" right before the DE book came out, that seems a lifetime ago now in terms of the general sentiment in the community.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





yukishiro1 wrote:
Drukhari are only down to 58% because ad mech stomp them, nerf Ad Mech down to where they should be and Drukhari will pop back up to mid 60s.

The whole situation is such an own-goal balance disaster that GW has brought upon itself. It's just so unfortunate. People were seriously talking about a "Golden Age" right before the DE book came out, that seems a lifetime ago now in terms of the general sentiment in the community.

It was far from the golden age of balance. Practically everything from 8.5 marines and the pre covid PA releases were exceptionally OP with PA daemons/PA Custodians being quite dominant.

9th edition gave us a great looking crons codex. It looked reasonable - very much internally balanced. Space marines with a super buffed meltas and dreads but nerfed a lot of their PA shenanigans. IMO - this was the most balanced period of 9th eddition...

DG comes out and it's questionable WTF is going on...this whole army ignores d2? uhhh...

DA comes out and most the army gets transhuman for free? Uhh...some other supplements come out but who cares about that?

DE come out with 90 point raiders with super dark lances and 60 point succubus that kills anything under 200 points in a single round and super flamers? This can't be serious?

Now we had Admech with 60 shots 4+ to hit autowounds and laser chickens for what? 75 points? LOL. Like This stuff is so OP it makes it hard to even justify talking about how OP the sisters codex is compared to say...the space marine one.

Heck...I have 2 armies coming up and I don't even care. GK and TS if they get a treatment like this how could I even enjoy playing it? They probably going to get something like a 1 CP stratagem that does 6 mortal wounds to a unit and then a mortal wound to every unit in the opponents army on a 2 plus...that is where we are at,
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

I can see why people are frustrated when they have such a hyperbolic and at the same time reductionist take on the game.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

DG comes out and it's questionable WTF is going on...this whole army ignores d2? uhhh...

DA comes out and most the army gets transhuman for free?


Both of these that you've mentioned were not actual problems in the least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
I think we need to dumpster "winrate" as the all important statistic.

% chance to go undefeated or have 1 loss is the metric we should really care about. It is the true measure of what is a problem.

As a baseball buff we have all sorts of statistics to break players down and measure ability. We need more data from the data collectors.

Example.
Avg victory points discrepancy.
+15/-15
Avg attrition score
+/- points spread on the table at the end of the game.
% chance to place top 8 against the field.

I'd be really interested in data like this. Though with an army approaching 80% wins - I would argue that the army can really only lose when your opponent has really great luck...or when you have really bad luck. It is clear that ad mech are probably the worst example of unbalance this edition has seen thus far.



I have access to that data up through 7/13. Once it updates for 7/20 I'll crunch the numbers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 18:51:52


   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

a_typical_hero wrote:
I can see why people are frustrated when they have such a hyperbolic and at the same time reductionist take on the game.


Such rebuttal, big wow. Got anything to actually counter what Yukishiro said? There was some hyperbole in Malcolm's post but I agree with the gist of it.

I don't think this is an awful time for the game, honestly. The core rules are pretty solid, GW puts out fun, fluffy codexes with good internal balance... but I'm not going to lie either, the game is not as good as many of us thought it would turn out to be when the Necron and SM codexes came out. That's not hyperbole, it's not reductionist, it's just clear-eyed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 18:59:36


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

DG comes out and it's questionable WTF is going on...this whole army ignores d2? uhhh...

DA comes out and most the army gets transhuman for free?


Both of these that you've mentioned were not actual problems in the least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
I think we need to dumpster "winrate" as the all important statistic.

% chance to go undefeated or have 1 loss is the metric we should really care about. It is the true measure of what is a problem.

As a baseball buff we have all sorts of statistics to break players down and measure ability. We need more data from the data collectors.

Example.
Avg victory points discrepancy.
+15/-15
Avg attrition score
+/- points spread on the table at the end of the game.
% chance to place top 8 against the field.

I'd be really interested in data like this. Though with an army approaching 80% wins - I would argue that the army can really only lose when your opponent has really great luck...or when you have really bad luck. It is clear that ad mech are probably the worst example of unbalance this edition has seen thus far.



I have access to that data up through 7/13. Once it updates for 7/20 I'll crunch the numbers.

Incredible. If you make a post including at least some of that data. We will all be truly grateful.

That is the problem with frog soup...it feels good at first. A whole army ignoring d2 or being 4+ max to wound is a big problem IMO. Those armies shot straight to the top of competitive play - not to even mention what they did to the meta.

https://bloodofkittens.com/9th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/
heck - before DE, DG were the top winning solo codex.

DA have won more events than UM or Salamanders in about what? 1/2 the time?

These are clear indicators that they are the strongest options...at least until DE and Admech came along.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 19:23:52


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
Drukhari are only down to 58% because ad mech stomp them, nerf Ad Mech down to where they should be and Drukhari will pop back up to mid 60s.


I imagine so, but I don't think the overall effect is large.

Based on June and July data excepting this past weekend - DE without mirror was 67.2%. DE without games vs Admech was 68.4%. ( Over 1,110 games )

This is 'all data' so things will look a fair bit differently from tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More data. It doesn't seem to jive with the sense that AdMech is the army to beat even though we're seeing more AdMech podium wins.

DE win rates:

Spoiler:


AdMech win rates:

Spoiler:


DE "struggles" vs T'au, Orks, AM
AdMech struggles vs Knights, Eldar ( small samples ), and DE

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 19:29:19


   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Such rebuttal, big wow. Got anything to actually counter what Yukishiro said? There was some hyperbole in Malcolm's post but I agree with the gist of it.

I don't think this is an awful time for the game, honestly. The core rules are pretty solid, GW puts out fun, fluffy codexes with good internal balance... but I'm not going to lie either, the game is not as good as many of us thought it would turn out to be when the Necron and SM codexes came out. That's not hyperbole, it's not reductionist, it's just clear-eyed.

I'm not talking about anything yukishiro1 wrote, but here you go buddy:
DG comes out and it's questionable WTF is going on...this whole army ignores d2? uhhh...

Flat out wrong. Most of the models in the army reduce damage by 1 which is not the same as saying "ignore d2". Sorry.
DA comes out and most the army gets transhuman for free? Uhh...some other supplements come out but who cares about that?

Again, wrong. Based on the numbers of datasheets most DA don't get free transhuman. You can build an army that only consists of Terminator and Bladeguard models, but that is not the claim here. Additionally, those armies didn't do hot on the tournament scene. Mixed and Ravenwing was and is more successfull.
DE come out with 90 point raiders with super dark lances and 60 point succubus that kills anything under 200 points in a single round and super flamers? This can't be serious?

Correct and it got nerfed already. If anything, it shows that you don't have to get your knickers twisted, as GW is willing to change things that are too oppressive after they mess up.
Now we had Admech with 60 shots 4+ to hit autowounds and laser chickens for what? 75 points? LOL. Like This stuff is so OP it makes it hard to even justify talking about how OP the sisters codex is compared to say...the space marine one.

Correct, AdMech is overtuned. See the point before about Dhrukari. We can talk again about it if AdMech won't get nerfed in their/the next big FAQ.
Sisters OP compared to Space Marines? Needs some citation. All the tournament data we have is too small a sample size to be relevant for it. Though the bunch of guys on Goonhammer, who I personally respect when it comes to their opinion on the meta, rate the new codex as a sidegrade to the last. The last dex was trading punches with Marines pretty equally. Sisters are stronger imho, but only by a small margin.
Heck...I have 2 armies coming up and I don't even care. GK and TS if they get a treatment like this how could I even enjoy playing it? They probably going to get something like a 1 CP stratagem that does 6 mortal wounds to a unit and then a mortal wound to every unit in the opponents army on a 2 plus...that is where we are at,

Hyperbole.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Yeah they don't ignore D2, they just auto-reduce it to 1 lol, we call that a distinction without a difference. I know you're a die hard GW white knight and I agree with most of the rest of your post but just stop defending silly things for no reason. New DR is dumb and dumpsters D2 in particular for no reason.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

 Castozor wrote:
Yeah they don't ignore D2, they just auto-reduce it to 1 lol, we call that a distinction without a difference. I know you're a die hard GW white knight and I agree with most of the rest of your post but just stop defending silly things for no reason. New DR is dumb and dumpsters D2 in particular for no reason.

"The whole army ignores d2" is not the same as "most models reduce damage by 1". Sorry, but that is just wrong. Go tell that to someone who doesn't know the rule in detail and see if they will understand it as -1d or as "d2 can't damage them".

If white knight is the label you want to give me for not putting up with most of the biased and fundamentally wrong gak flying around on this board, I'll take it. Feel free to write me a PM to continue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 20:09:40


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





The biggest reason DG got their time in the sun is because the meta had been overtuned to deal with Marines. Death Guard countered that meta at the time as they downgrade a lot of anti-marine weaponry.

However, with the advent of armies like Drukhari and Ad Mech DG don't really have a meta to counter anymore so it is understandable that they have dropped somewhat.

-Primary Armies -
Craftworlds | Dark Angels | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle | Chaos Knights | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin

- Secondary Armies -
Drukhari | Necrons || Tyranids | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





a_typical_hero wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Yeah they don't ignore D2, they just auto-reduce it to 1 lol, we call that a distinction without a difference. I know you're a die hard GW white knight and I agree with most of the rest of your post but just stop defending silly things for no reason. New DR is dumb and dumpsters D2 in particular for no reason.

"The whole army ignores d2" is not the same as "most models reduce damage by 1". Sorry, but that is just wrong. Go tell that to someone who doesn't know the rule in detail and see if they will understand it as -1d or as "d2 can't damage them".

If white knight is the label you want to give me for not putting up with most of the biased and fundamentally wrong gak flying around on this board, I'll take it. Feel free to write me a PM to continue.
You are right. Ignores d2 is actually not as good as reduce all damage by 1 to a min of 1. Thanks for correcting me whilst no one alive had any difficulty understanding the meaning of ignore d2. Strange though...you see to be claiming it's not that good of an ability...yet clarify it by proving its better...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Yeah they don't ignore D2, they just auto-reduce it to 1 lol, we call that a distinction without a difference. I know you're a die hard GW white knight and I agree with most of the rest of your post but just stop defending silly things for no reason. New DR is dumb and dumpsters D2 in particular for no reason.

"The whole army ignores d2" is not the same as "most models reduce damage by 1". Sorry, but that is just wrong. Go tell that to someone who doesn't know the rule in detail and see if they will understand it as -1d or as "d2 can't damage them".

If white knight is the label you want to give me for not putting up with most of the biased and fundamentally wrong gak flying around on this board, I'll take it. Feel free to write me a PM to continue.
I think youd find yourself in a small minority of people who disagree with anything I just said. Considering - they are factual statements.

Pretty sure everyone know the meaning of ignore d2 when talking about DG. Everyone in this room knows what DR is. Yikes...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/20 21:43:02


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

I'd go with the Goonhammer recommendations for both DE and Admech, with maybe the 5 point bump for Dark Lances others mentioned and another 5 points over Goonhammer's recommended bump for the Admech Laser Chickens. Then see how that works out.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




I think it's clear 9th is meant to operate on a different level from 8th. So first thing I would do is filter out all matches between 9th Codices and 8th Codices and then balance purely on 9th Vs. 9th statistics
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

TBH for most of the edition until the drukhari codex the most powerfull stuff in 9th were three 8th books (sisters, custodes, harlequines).

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





GW needs to do it this way because lethality speeds the game up (while at the same time other unintentional things slow it down). As usual left hand and right hand do different thing. 40K is a sacred cow they’re terrified to manipulate too much and it’s core because it brings in so much money. So we get an archaic and obviously deeply flawed interaction system with as many random bolt on rules they can think of to make something interesting happen. Else 40K is just an incredibly drawn out three hours of taking turns standing around and removing models from the table.

It’s clear all the design risks are taken by the AoS team and if they pass the “people buy the models” test then they eventually are filtered into 40K. Maybe by AoS 5th edition we will finally have the “fast paced interactive” game system GW always talks about. But for the next 5 years we get each player alpha strikes and then we go through the monotonous litany of rules combos scattered across multiple publications to see who gets the obscure gotcha edge case to win.

At this point we need to embrace the lethality and maybe even shrink the board more, cap games at three turns.

40K was fundamentally broken around the era that Knights were released. Until they rewrite the game, this is all deck chairs on the titanic really.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/21 01:13:23


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Castozor wrote:
New DR is dumb and dumpsters D2 in particular for no reason.


It is absolutely for a reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thought occurs. Globally Admech isn't doing amazingly like DE did. They do incredibly in GTs though.

Hypothesis - most Admech players lack the specific units that make them strong and only GT players are bringing what is broken as the models are notoriously expensive.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/21 01:44:15


   
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I know AdMech players have been complaining about chicken walkers due to a combination of pricing and availability since the army debuted so that could very well be a factor. I don't think they were ever this good before either?
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Chickens were pretty good when PA hit due to a lot of rerolls.

   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
New DR is dumb and dumpsters D2 in particular for no reason.


It is absolutely for a reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thought occurs. Globally Admech isn't doing amazingly like DE did. They do incredibly in GTs though.

Hypothesis - most Admech players lack the specific units that make them strong and only GT players are bringing what is broken as the models are notoriously expensive.


Sounds like a reasonable hypothesis. It also means nerfing the worst offenders would mostly hurt the competitive meta chasers and hit casual players less, which is one of the things that Goonhammer was trying to do with their recommended changes.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Arachnofiend wrote:
I know AdMech players have been complaining about chicken walkers due to a combination of pricing and availability since the army debuted so that could very well be a factor. I don't think they were ever this good before either?


This, I do think model availability plays a huge factor in these winrates. Covid has made GW's inventory go in and out of stock constantly. I know Guard players who had been waiting for months to just get a pair of Manticores.

I play some TTS 40k as well, and spamming chicken walkers is a nightmare to vs.

   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

I've written extensively about how winrates are misleading when just taken on their own, but it's important to note that goonhammer really only looks at American and Aussie tournaments for some reason. In the past 2 weeks we've had a Necron GT win and two 3rd place finishes at other GT's in UK/Europe. None of these were listed on their site and I'm unclear if they've been included in the table in the original post.

Don't get me wrong, the Necron dex has issues and the points increases it has been hit with are brutal, unnecessary and show how GW has no idea what they're doing when it comes to continual balance. It's like Marines in general though; people will decry the sky is falling when actually a lot of Marine chapters routinely place highly in events and have even won plenty recently. So clearly both armies, despite being early 9th books, still have some play. But again, you also have to look at how these armies are winning too; that Necron GT win was a list with a reanimator and included games against Admech, DE and Sisters which seems nuts, right? But then you look at the lists it faced and the Admech player went some weird Graia build with MSU skitarii units and Skorpius Duneriders so how """valid""" (which I feel bad about saying) is it as a result?

Because you have to consider winrates, placings, but also the types of players that are attending these events. The vast majority of 40k tournament attendees are literally more casual than anything else. Just showing up with whatever they have on hand and doing the best they can, meeting some new friends and rolling some dice. So yes, a Necron silver tide list beat Admech... but did it really when you have two players playing with different intent and different approaches to the game? It becomes much harder to quantify.
   
 
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