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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Shred
Many weapons employ designs specialised to tear through lighter armour, barbed shrapnel or ripping fangs inflicting grievous wounds on exposed flesh.
Some weapons have the Shred ability. Such a weapon will have an ability that reads ‘Shred’ and then a value, such as (6+) or (4+). Each time your opponent makes an unmodified armour saving throw of that value against an attack made with this weapon, that attack scores 1 additional wound.
For example, each time your opponent makes a saving throw against a weapon with Shred (5+), that attack scores 1 additional wound on an unmodified saving throw of 5 or 6.

Breaker
Armour plating is designed to disperse powerful impacts and explosions – some weapons wreak complete havoc on targets without such protection.
Each time your opponent fails a saving throw against an attack made with a Breaker weapon, increase the Damage characteristic of that attack by the amount the saving throw was failed by.
For example, if you wound a Tactical Marine (Save 3+) with a Breaker weapon with AP-1, add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that attack on an unmodified saving throw of 3, add 2 to the Damage characteristic on a saving throw of 2, and add 3 to the Damage on a saving throw of 1.


----------
In prior editions, Armour Penetration was entirely binary – either your opponent could use their armour save, because it was higher than your AP, or they couldn't, because it was lower. This gave each weapon a clear, specialised niche, which was interesting, but also made them extremely meta-dependent (and the meta was always MEQ) and tricky to modify because of how drastically each pip of AP changed their utility. 8e introduced the current, scaling paradigm, whereby AP is a modifier – this is simpler, more intuitive, and ensures that there are no "useless" AP-types. However, it also faces a problem of mathematics – namely, it's much more valuable the better your opponent's Save characteristic is.

For an example of what I mean, here's 10 wounds with AP-0, against different saving throws:
Spoiler:
  • 6+ save = 8.33 unsaved
  • 5+ save = 6.66 unsaved
  • 4+ save = 5.00 unsaved
  • 3+ save = 3.33 unsaved
  • 2+ save = 1.66 unsaved

  • And here's 10 wounds with AP-1, against the same saving throws:
    Spoiler:
  • 6+ save = 10.00 unsaved (+1.66, +20%)
  • 5+ save = 8.33 unsaved (+1.66, +25%)
  • 4+ save = 6.66 unsaved (+1.66 +33%)
  • 3+ save = 5.00 unsaved (+1.66, +50%)
  • 2+ save = 3.33 unsaved (+1.66, +100%)

  • A pip of AP adds the same amount of damage against each saving throw; but since you're starting with so much less damage on a better save, its impact is far more significant the lower down you go. Most AP-1 guns "used" to be AP4 – that is to say, capable of ripping through medium infantry or lightly armour scout vehicles, but useless against heavy armour. In 9e, however, slapping AP-1 on a gun doubles the damage it inflicts on Terminators. It's useful against lighter armour, sure, but it's by no means specialised; in fact, there isn't really a "specialised" anti-light/medium armour profile at all any more, unless you count "loads of shots with terrible Strength, AP0, and D1".

    Shred is intended to plug that gap – here's 10 wounds with AP-0, Shred (6+), against the same saving throws:
    Spoiler:
  • 6+ save = 9.72 unsaved (+1.39, +16%)
  • 5+ save = 7.77 unsaved (+1.11, +16%)
  • 4+ save = 5.83 unsaved (+0.83, +16%)
  • 3+ save = 3.88 unsaved (+0.55, +16%)
  • 2+ save = 1.94 unsaved (+0.28, +16%)

  • Because that's a "standard" +16%, you're getting much more out of it against lighter saves, which you're already wounding; it's almost equivalent to AP-1 against Ork Boyz or Cultists, but amounts to barely anything (8% of a single Terminator's lifebar, whoop) against Terminators. Note that it doesn't "explode", courtesy of recent Charadon errata. Other number comparisons:
    Spoiler:
    10 wounds with AP-0, Shred (5+) against:
  • 6+ save = 11.11 unsaved (+2.77, +33%)
  • 5+ save = 8.88 unsaved (+2.22, +33%)
  • 4+ save = 6.66 unsaved (+1.66, +33%)
  • 3+ save = 4.44 unsaved (+0.55, +33%)
  • 2+ save = 2.22 unsaved (+0.28, +33%)

  • 10 wounds with AP-2, against:
  • 6+ save = 10.00 unsaved (+1.66, +20%)
  • 5+ save = 10.00 unsaved (+3.33, +50%)
  • 4+ save = 8.33 unsaved (+3.33, +66%)
  • 3+ save = 6.66 unsaved (+3.33 +100%)
  • 2+ save = 5.00 unsaved (+3.33, +200%)

  • 10 wounds with AP-1, Shred (6+) against:
  • 6+ save = 11.66 unsaved (+3.33, +40%)
  • 5+ save = 9.72 unsaved (+3.06, +46%)
  • 4+ save = 7.77 unsaved (+2.77, +77%)
  • 3+ save = 5.83 unsaved (+2.50, +100%)
  • 2+ save = 3.88 unsaved (+2.22, +133%)

  • 10 wounds with AP-1, Shred (5+) against:
  • 6+ save = 13.33 unsaved (+5.00, +60%)
  • 5+ save = 11.11 unsaved (+4.44, +66%)
  • 4+ save = 8.88 unsaved (+3.88, +77%)
  • 3+ save = 6.66 unsaved (+3.33, +100%)
  • 2+ save = 4.44 unsaved (+2.77, +166%)


  • ----------
    Spoiler:
    Breaker
    Armour plating is designed to disperse powerful impacts and explosions – some weapons wreak complete havoc on targets without such protection.
    Some weapons have the Breaker ability. Such a weapon will have an ability that reads ‘Breaker’ and then a value, such as (5+) or (3+). Each time your opponent makes an unmodified saving throw of that value against an attack made with this weapon, double the Damage characteristic of that attack.
    For example, each time your opponent makes a saving throw against a weapon with Breaker (4+) and a Damage characteristic of 2, that attack's Damage characteristic is doubled to 4 if the unmodified saving throw is a 4, 5, or 6.


    This Breaker fills a similar role, but for VEHICLES (and MONSTERS, and other big things). Essentially, it offers double damage if your opponent fails a saving throw on a high enough number. Breaker (6+) means you only get double damage if your opponent fails a saving throw on the highest possible number, for example, meaning you need to have punched completely through its armour. It's best used in conjunction with middling AP – for example, Breaker (4+) with AP-1 and D2 would mean you'd have double damage 25% of the time against units with Sv4+, 33% of the time against units with Sv5+, and 50% of the time against Sv6+. It rewards focusing on lightly-armoured (or lightly once your AP is taken into account) units, instead of biting off more than you can chew and hoping for a lucky wound.

    A comparison of the average Damage for different Breakers vs different saving throws:
    Breaker (4+), AP-1, D1:
  • 6+ save = D1.5
  • 5+ save = D1.33
  • 4+ save = D1.25
  • 3+ save = D1

  • Breaker (4+), AP-1, D2:
  • 6+ save = D3
  • 5+ save = D2.66
  • 4+ save = D2.5
  • 3+ save = D2

  • Breaker (4+), AP-2, D2:
  • 6+ save = D3
  • 5+ save = D3
  • 4+ save = D2.66
  • 3+ save = D2.5
  • 2+ save = D2

  • Breaker (3+), AP-1, D2:
  • 6+ save = D3.33
  • 5+ save = D3.2
  • 4+ save = D3
  • 3+ save = D2.66
  • 2+ save = D2
  • This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 12:14:08


     
       
    Made in gb
    Ship's Officer





    Bristol (UK)

    So I cause more damage if my opponent rolls well on their armour save?
    This is a terrible idea.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    To give concrete comparisons of what this could be used for – if Bolt Rifles went from AP-1 to AP0 with Shred (6+), 10 Intercessors rapid-firing would go from:
  • Hormagaunts: 8.88 unsaved
  • Militarum Infantry: 7.40 unsaved
  • Fire Warriors: 5.93 unsaved
  • Ork Boyz: 4.44 unsaved
  • Traitor Marines: 3.33 unsaved
  • Predator: 2.22 unsaved

  • And instead to:
  • Hormagaunts: 8.64 unsaved
  • Militarum Infantry: 6.91 unsaved
  • Fire Warriors: 5.19 unsaved
  • Ork Boyz: 4.32 unsaved
  • Traitor Marines: 2.59 unsaved
  • Predator: 1.72 unsaved


  • Barely a flicker of the needle for Orks or Gaunts, but half a dead Guardsman less, one less dead Fire Warrior, and a quarter fewer wounds on a fellow Space Marine.

    Similarly, if the Ironstrider's Twin Cognis Autocannon went from D2 to D1 with Breaker (3+), it would go from 2.66 average Damage against a squad of Space Marines 1.77 average damage – but against something with a lighter save, like a Tyranid Warrior, it would go from 3.55 average damage to 2.66 average damage.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     kirotheavenger wrote:
    So I cause more damage if my opponent rolls well on their armour save?
    This is a terrible idea.
    For Shred? No, it's effectively just a re-roll that also works on Save 7+. Originally it was a re-roll, but I didn't like how it "capped out" against less armoured opponents once you combined it with AP:
    Spoiler:
    Some weapons have the Shred ability. Such a weapon will have an ability that reads ‘Shred’ and then a value, such as (6+) or (4+). Each time your opponent makes an armour saving throw against an attack made with this weapon, you can decide that they must re-roll any or all unmodified saving throws of that value.
    For example, each time your opponent makes a saving throw against a weapon with Shred (5+), you can decide that they must re-roll any saving throws of 5, any saving throws of 6, or both.


    For Breaker? No, if you roll well on your armour save, you don't take any damage, because you passed the saving throw.

    If you failed your armour save, you take more damage on a higher roll, because it means your armour was so weak that even a high roll was punched through. Breaker 6+ will only work against something with a 7+ Save (or if you have AP). Breaker 5+ will only work against something with a 6+ Save (or if you have AP), and so on. A similar, much more dramatic concept was to use the unmodified saving throw as the Damage characteristic; that's effectively just D6 damage, but the ceiling of that roll gets lower and lower the better your opponent's armour is. Against a 3+ save, for example, an AP-1 Breaker weapon could deal 1-3 Damage. Against a 5+ save, that same weapon could deal 1-5.

    Is it just the "higher number for opponent = bad" aspect that you object to, for being counter-intuitive? There was another alternative I had for Breaker, which was much more dramatic and also triggered on an enemy roll:
    Spoiler:
    Each time your opponent fails a saving throw against an attack made with a Breaker weapon, increase the Damage characteristic of that attack by the amount the saving throw was failed by.
    For example, if you wound a Tactical Marine (Save 3+) with a Breaker weapon with AP-1, add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that attack on an unmodified saving throw of 3, add 2 to the Damage characteristic on a saving throw of 2, and add 3 to the Damage on a saving throw of 1.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/02 15:03:54


     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    If I'm reading Shred correctly, it means that you're not only making Shred weapons stronger against targets with armor but also making such weapons more lethal against targets whose armor you ignore. Is that right?

    For instance an intercessor in the tactical doctrine (AP-2) shoots a termagaunt (Sv6+). Technically, you still "roll" a save even if you have no chance of succeeding (you would need to roll an 8+ on a d6). So if the bolt weapon was Shred(5+), the termagaunt would have 0% chance of making any saves but his unit would also have a 1/3rd chance of taking an additional wound.

    Also, do bonus Shred wounds have the shred rule themselves? Could a bolt pistol with Shred(6+) potentially kill an entire horde of termagaunts with 1 shot if your opponent just kept rolling 6s for their saves?

    Breaker feels a little counter-intuitive. As written, a guardsmen heavy weapon team (W2 Sv5+) is just as likely to treat their flakk jackets as "iron coffins" as a marine is his power armor. That is to say, even models with lightweight, loose-fitting armor can end up taking bonus damage from Breaker weapons which are described as only doing bonus damage because of how heavy the armor is.

    Also, it's weird that a model with a 5+ save could end up taking bonus damage from a Breaker(4+) weapon. They aren't even heavily armored enough to succeed on a 4+, but they take bonus damage anyway. If the fluff is that breaker weapons are more effective because of their target's heavy armor, then it seems weird that they're especially good against light armor.

    Also also, it's weird that, as written, breaker can work against models that rely on their invul saves (which often have nothing to do with how heavy their armor is.) A drukhari grotesque that is basically naked is quite concerned about a Breaker(4+) weapon, for instance.

       
    Made in gb
    Ship's Officer





    Bristol (UK)

    Shred is worded really weirdly if all it does is force a reroll of a successful save. I completely misunderstood what that did.

       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




     kirotheavenger wrote:
    Shred is worded really weirdly if all it does is force a reroll of a successful save. I completely misunderstood what that did.
    So, originally it did just that - it forced a re-roll of high saving throws, which made it comparatively more effective against weaker Saves.

    However, that has the unfortunate result of being useless against Save 7+, or against Save 6+ if your weapon had AP-1, or being worse against Save 6+ if you had Shred (5+).

    Adding another wound for the opponent to save - instead of forcing them to re-roll that save - gives you identical results to the re-roll, except it remains useful in situations where your opponent couldn't normally roll a Save.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Wyldhunt wrote:
    Also, do bonus Shred wounds have the shred rule themselves? Could a bolt pistol with Shred(6+) potentially kill an entire horde of termagaunts with 1 shot if your opponent just kept rolling 6s for their saves?
    No, the intent is that is covered by the core errata which prevents additional attacks/hits from being infinitely generated.

    Wyldhunt wrote:
    Breaker feels a little counter-intuitive. As written, a guardsmen heavy weapon team (W2 Sv5+) is just as likely to treat their flakk jackets as "iron coffins" as a marine is his power armor. That is to say, even models with lightweight, loose-fitting armor can end up taking bonus damage from Breaker weapons which are described as only doing bonus damage because of how heavy the armor is.
    I've probably phrased the lore poorly - the intent is that Breaker indicates a weapon that only does extra damage against targets wearing armour it can easily punch through, while heavily armoured targets take less damage even if they fail the save. It's anti-light armour, not anti-heavy armour. I've rewritten it, and replaced the rules with the other version.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 12:12:50


     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    RevlidRas wrote:
    Shred
    Many weapons employ designs specialised to tear through lighter armour, barbed shrapnel or ripping fangs inflicting grievous wounds on exposed flesh.
    Some weapons have the Shred ability. Such a weapon will have an ability that reads ‘Shred’ and then a value, such as (6+) or (4+). Each time your opponent makes an unmodified armour saving throw of that value against an attack made with this weapon, that attack scores 1 additional wound.
    For example, each time your opponent makes a saving throw against a weapon with Shred (5+), that attack scores 1 additional wound on an unmodified saving throw of 5 or 6.

    Breaker
    Armour plating is designed to disperse powerful impacts and explosions – some weapons wreak complete havoc on targets without such protection.
    Each time your opponent fails a saving throw against an attack made with a Breaker weapon, increase the Damage characteristic of that attack by the amount the saving throw was failed by.
    For example, if you wound a Tactical Marine (Save 3+) with a Breaker weapon with AP-1, add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that attack on an unmodified saving throw of 3, add 2 to the Damage characteristic on a saving throw of 2, and add 3 to the Damage on a saving throw of 1.


    Talk me through examples of weapons that you would give Shred to. Generally, weapons with bad AP but either good rates of fire or good strength scores are already pretty good at hurting lightly armored targets. My mind goes to deathspinners wielded by warp spiders. They basically shoot strands of monomolecular piano wire that is described as cutting people apart as they try to disentangle themselves from it. Currently, those weapons have a special rule that makes them better at ignoring armor (AP 0 becomes AP-4 on a to-wound roll of 6), which feels a bit weird given the weapon's fluff. So Shred seems like it could fit that particular weapon well. However, I'm not sure where else I would apply such a rule. You could apply it to something like frag grenades and frag missiles, but those weapons seem like they do a decent job at threatening hordes as-is. (Granted, they're a bit worse against ork boyz now.)

    I have trouble picturing a weapon that would fit Breaker's rules. I tend to think of a weapon's Damage characteristic as being indicative of how much damage it would do to something like a guardsman or cultist. Armour saves are abstracted as partially representing the armor's ability to downgrade lethal attacks to merely harmful or unpleasant. When I make a bunch of 4+ kabalite warrior saves, I'm picturing a couple of guys ending up grazing wounds, severe bruises, maybe a goose egg that's going to need attention later. So the idea that weapons are more lethal than that actually and that only sufficiently heavy armor can downgrade that damage requires some reshuffling of how I abstract things. What are some examples of weapons that you would make Breaker?

    Also, having to calculate how much damage each individual wound does, while not exactly difficult math, is still probably more math than I want to do to resolve a single attack roll. Also also, allowing Breakerto have such a wide damage range could make it tricky to balance depending on the rarity/cost/rate of fire of such weapons. The same gun that might only do 2 Damage when a gravis armor marine rolls a 1 could nearly(?) one-shot something like a lictor. To simplify the mechanic while also giving yourself more control over the specifics, you could do something like...

    BREAKER(x)
    Weapons with this special rule have a Damage characteristic of X against targets with a 4+ save or worse.

    ...Or 5+ or however you want to adjust it. No on-the-fly math. Just a simple change of Damage characteristic based on what you're shooting at.

    Still not sure what I'd give such a rule to though. A bolt round detonating inside of someone doesn't seem like it would care what they're wearing once it's in there. If anything, a weapon that is more lethal the more lightly armored you are seems like it belongs on something like a gas-based weapon or a cloud of tiny tyranid projectile bugs or something. But those don't seem like they're "Breaking" anything.

    Fluff-wise, what distinguishes a Breaker weapon from a gun with good AP?
       
     
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