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Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






THIS IS AN INCOMPLETE PLACEHOLDER AND WILL BE FILLED UP IN TIME

So, with the new codex being basically out, its time for a new topic!

The new codex is....Interesting to say the least.
Lacking in raw datasheet power, but the sheer utility and options (especially mid-game options) are staggering compared to other codices of the same scale. somehow even with our tiny model range it feels extremely diverse.

All raitings are my opinion at the time of writing and may subject to change with games under my belt, other people's convincing arguments, and/or any tournament results. last update 8/8/21. going by a colored scale of
S-practically must have, the "this is getting a nerf next CA" section
A-strong choice that needs practically no support beyond what it itself provides (wanted blue, but hard to read)
B -good enough choice that can work well with a bit of thought, effort and/or investment
C-situational choices that require either some dedication to work well, or are mostly useful as counter picks to specific metas
D-avoid, things that are either completely outclassed by others of the same category, or are outright traps

Unit Analysis
Spoiler:

HQ
Ahriman S+
The most exalted of sorcerers is back, and better than ever. for a minimal point increase his casting power is VASTLY improved, now with full rerolls to his casts replacing him +1 to cast, but the +1 to cast gain back from the army rules.
There isn't much to say, he's simply the psyker supreme. honestly I find it had to envision a list without him.

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince A
Now with the DG weapon changes, he's slightly improved, but losing warptime (the replacement cant target him) make the fast-moving beatstick less fast moving. limiting us to only one per detachment also prevents going for redundancy. still, if you need a big, beefy, beatstick HQ, he's your go-to.
Just remember, his psyker powers are added cream on top, not the selling point. if you plan to sit behind a wall of troops all day, perhaps a cheap exalted would be better. Im my personal tastes, even if just keeping him for "just in case someone assault my lines and I need a counter-offensive" is enough to justify the extra cost though. and the mere option to take the offensive is never bad.
Still a strong pick and can compete both in codex and outside of it, but perhaps not as good as he used to be, both with the loss of speed options, and the added competition.

Infernal Master B
The new boy on the block.
Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about him. he seems pretty good, and the infernal pacts have some interesting options, remains to be seen how good they are.
I'm ranking him B because he has some unique abilities that cant really be gotten elsewhere, so at the very least he opens up options.

Exalted Sorcerer B
The budget version of princes. honestly I'm slightly let down. you need to invest a lot of points and relics/traits to get them close to as good as ahriman or a prince, losing the whole budget aspect. if you take one, you probably want to keep him cheap.
Some people seem to disagree so I'll explain.
The exalted is not bad at all. the statline is solid, the casting is good for the price, the aura is useful-but he lacks any speciality. anything an exalted does, so does the prince/ahriman, and often better.
At a bare-bones state, he provides cheap enough casting, with a decent body and a nice aura in an affordable budget, but as you keep investing in him you gotta ask "why didn't I just take a prince or Ahriman?". if you already took both, maybe that's your answer. and sure you can CP into having relics and extra traits to bring him up to par, but at that point would you not rather invest the CP in another detachment for another prince? (and possibly a more flexible chart)

Sorcerer C
The budget version of the budget prince. except not very much a budget, and you lose a LOT of stats on the way. honestly if you don't have a plan with Witch-Warrior or Loyal Thrall command upgrades, avoid them. upgrading to exalted is too cheap, and if you run out of HQ slots its probably better to dish out the CP for extra detachment instead. battle-psyker is a massive trap.

Sorcerer in Terminator Armor D
Takes the problem of the sorcerer, and dials it up. you just pay way too much for what it gives. stick to ahriman, prince, occasional exalted or infernal, just stay away from the termisor.


Troops
Thousand Sons Cultists D
They are not cheap, not durable, got practically no support anywhere in the codex, and furfil no goal, not even cheap objective sitters as they are not even objective secured. just pretend these don't exist.

Tzaangors C
The goatmen.
Now restricted in numbers, so you cant go for overwhelming wound count, and their support is not nearly as good as it used to be with the loss of the double attack stratagem, they are not nearly as valuable at putting pressure.
Being cheaper though, they make possible objective holders, and part of the reason why cultists are so bad. just 2 points more for +1T, invul 5, better CC stats, better support still, and objective secured makes them just do everything a cultist does better.
With investment in stratagems, shaman babysitters and such they might even do some work, but I doubt they'll achieve enough to justify the effort most times.
Still, they have their uses, so maybe don't hurry to send them to the furnace.

Rubrics Marines B
These guys got a lot of love this codex.
The new and improved spell list and regular smites make the aspirant more of an asset, the improved soulreaper in minimal squads allows backfield objective squads to contribute more to the midfield, the expected extra wound means small arms truly are a non-factor for them now, and they also support the cabal rituals quite well. overall, they won't carry you to victory, but they are a very solid core and taking 3 squads is no regret. taking 6 is probably excessive though.
The warpflamer squad got new life in it too. basically not any more expensive, but with extra movement and extra gun range, the threat range is greatly improved. not to mention they are in range for deepstrike barbeque now, can overwatch even the longest charger and the new spell that grants them +1S is great especially when the unit itself can cast it. overall a lot of potential, and it means there are basically two flavors of rubric teams now. (3 if you think hybrid is viable, but I think one way or another is the path)
The Ardent Automata command upgrade opens up some interesting new options for secondary missions
Honestly, I think B ranking might be underestimating them.


Elites
Helbrute A
While on the surface they don't seem to gain much, and the lack of psyker dreadnaught hurt our dark souls, the thousand sons helbrute is stealthily perhaps the best dreadnaut out there right now.
Adding up the known dreadnaught upgrades of -1 damage is nice, and the frenzy replacing crazed is much, much better. the loss of movement speed is sad, but not enough to reduce his amazing value.
The new 5++, when coupled with the -1 damage rule makes him extremely tough. that's the selling point. we've seen how the two rules mesh together on DG nasties, and its great. he's also still also a great source of much needed anti-tank, and in the many slotted elite section.
March the thousand sons helbrutes!

Scarab Occult Terminators A
Two heavy hitters in a row here!
The heavy dust boys got themselves a LOT of upgrades in this codex.
Much bigger psyker list to choose from, and real smites? check.
Double the CC power and improved dakka on the heavies? check.
Extra wound? check.
Less slow? check.
OBJECTIVE SECURED? hell yea!
price increase? basically none.
These boys are going to be workhorses. they will go to objectives and cut down the defenders without too much hassle and don't have to worry about a straggler holding the objective, all the while gunning down other guys on their way there. they are also a great target for any and all buffs. basically, if you don't have scarabs in your list, you gotta ask yourself why.

Tzaangor Shaman

The tzaangor support character suffers from the fact tzaangors are not really worth the investment to support. using him as an extra character just for actions lost value with the command upgrades, the extra spellcasting lost value with rubrics and scarabs being both better casters, and better in general pushing the tzaangors further out.
He just falls behind, the parts he used to play either no longer needed or better done by others.

Fast Attack
Tzzangor Enlightened D
The flying goatmen seem to fail to fly.
Not any cheaper, not any stronger, and they were already questionable-now even more so.
They are not tough for their price, and don't hit hard either. so the mobility is wasted on a unit that can get there, but not do much once it does.
The bow change is cute, giving chaos it's first real snipers, but honestly the damage output is just too low, and not much can be expected of them. it takes two full squads to take down a sororitas support character, and even that's a bit of a gamble. its just not good enough.
The utter lack of support available is not improving things.

Chaos Spawn B
The cheap unmentionables are back, with few changes making them a bit more reliable, but not harder hitting.
They are still cheap, they still punch harder than you'd expect for the price, and they still die the moment someone actually pays attention to them (hopefully after being on the receiving end of a fated mutation)
They can help put some pressure, but honestly with all the improvements in the codex they will probably struggle to keep up. and that's a shame because they were a real crutch in the last codex. goes to show how much things improved I guess.
Still, if you find yourself wanting a few more CC threats, just enjoy the change flavor, or just in it for the memes-you won't lose any sleep over including a few spawn in your list. at least not more than appropriate considering their looks.


Heavy Support


Flyer
HeldrakeC
The turky is back in the sky!
Honestly, he's basically an aircraft counter. he won't achive much when there are no aircraft on the enemy field, but when there are, he will absolutely mulch them.
This is basically the staple counter pick. if your meta is dominated by aircraft, the heldrake is your best friend, but as long as its not, he's probably better staying home.


Dedicated Transports

Rhino A

Yes. the rhino is THAT good.
For the price of 4 rubrics, you get a rhino equipped with 2 inferno combi bolters (so, shooting like said 4 rubrics, except always getting full 8 shots at 24" even on the move), being a big ass metal box to block for LoS blocking and hiding sorcerers, can ferry around your other rubrics at the speeds they dream of, and it packs a 5+ invul save.
A 5+ invul on a sub-100 transport, that has decent guns. we all know just how infuriating the 6+ invul the sisters has is, and we got 5+.
Rhinos are the new meta boys, as awkward as it sounds.

Lord of War
Magnus The Red




Trickery-warlord traits, relics, stratagems, cabal ritual and great cults
Spoiler:

Warlord Traits
Arrogance of Eons[C
Useful when you are facing psykers, but that's pretty much it.

Seeker After ShadowsB[
Replacing High Magistar is a tough order, and this doesn't cut it. still, rerolling psychic actions, with a dedicated action caster-it gets points, and points wins games. not for your actual warlord, but your third caster can enjoy it.

Undying FormB[
Was useful, stayed useful. gets better the bigger you are, so Magnus really enjoys his, and a prince wouldn't mind either-but that's it.

Lord of Forbidden LoreD[
If you are not Magnus, you don't want it. he has it though.

Otherwordly PrescienceB[
Was amazing, and got nerfed to oblivion. that said, there usually will only be one or two rounds in a game where you need that 3++, so its still pretty useful.

AetherstrideD[
Gets you faster and gives a bit of mobility abilities, but...not enough to matter.


Relics
Seer's Bane C
A force sword with -4 ap that turns into a massive beatstick against psykers? I guess its useful in a psyker dominated meta, but not elsewhere.

Umbralefic Crystal A
Rebranded Fark Matter Crystal. mobility is always good, and this give it. soild pick in every list.

Helm of the Daemon's Eye S
Helm of the Third Eye rebrand, in S tier?
I mean, its good, but just a CP generator, not worth investing in, right? WRONG.
Its cheaper than every to pack extra relics, so the only reason to ever not take it, is if you have too many other relics you need for your strategy and there is simply no room left.
Even if it triggers once, and it most likely will, it paid for itself. and you can usually expect around 3 triggers per match.

Coruscator B
Relic pistol, moving on.
Wait, B?
Yes. B. because you can put it on an aspiring sorcerer for 1 CP, it does not seem to count against your relic limit, and for them its a decent upgrade you may want to consider.
Bonus range, triple shots and double damage. not bad for a pistol upgrade for a random mook.

Athenaean Scrolls A
Talk about zero to hero! these used to be utterly useless, but now, if you got a specific spell your strategy relies on-you can practically guarantee it! the fact you choose only during the game also lets it be used to supercharge a specific silver bullet spell for that odd matchup when one spell is absolutely mandatory. this is basically great. might even be S tier material, time will tell.

Thryddeghyre C
Our third names character is hidden in the relic section!
Jokes aside, its...meh. it lets you weave in and out of combat in colorful ways, and the any direction 6' consolidation will at some cases lets you do some funky moves, but honestly its more meme than substance. perhaps can get some interesting tactical options when combined with scheming's warlord trait.

Egleighen's OrreryC
A counter pick when you need your core units to take care of some modifier stacker. no, tanshuman doesn't count. so yea, great when you need it, but sometimes utterly useless.

The Chronos Tutorum B
Its a relic. that gives an extra warlord trait.
Needlessly convoluted is tzeentchy, but this is better than might appear on a glance. you pick that new trait in-game, meaning you can use it for counterpicks if needed, and even if not, we got some solid traits in our bag, some even combo well. solid choice.

Skaeloch's Talon D
No. just no. Sx2 D2d3 might seem good, but not on AP0. not even on an aspirant.

Conninving Plate S
A prince with this?
Jump into a whole pack of enemies uncaring. cut in half the attacks of that super beatstick and proceed to taken him down. this is insane. this is surely getting FAQed, because RAW this is just absurd. its better reducing damage to half.

Warpweave Mantle B
Trolltastic in a way only tzeentch can be, punishing the enemy for rolling high is just so rage inducing. still, its basically a meme. and the better casting while injured part isn't that great as casters don't exactly have a big health pool buffer. not great, but not terrible.

Paradoxical ChatterfowlC
Continuing with the troll picks. honestly, this is a meme. its janky, funny, and can be used to utterly infuriate enemy psyker beatsticks, but we probably don't want to be anywhere near them anyway, and it does practiclly nothing against rank-and-file beatsticks

The Change-Wrought Chalice C
Smarter shaman is still, a shaman. if you got a good use for a shaman in your list, perhaps giving him access to more spells has value to you-but i doubt it.

Incadaeum B
Its a force staff that is also an upgreaded warpflamer. much like the Coruscator, the biggest value comes from the fact you can plop it on an aspirant.

Pentakairic Armor B
The Infernal Master unique relic. knowing an extra pact aint much, you already know two and only get to use one, though several are utility in nature so maybe? That said, totally blocking the first wound each turn is pretty darn useful.
If you got an Infenral Master in your ranks, you might want this. if he leads your combat patrol, you defiantly want this.

The Prism of Echos C
This one honestly confound me.
On the one hand, it single-handedly opens up a backfield support psyker as an option. on the other hand, must of our units that wants a blessing will either cast it themselves, or is a big unit that you want a nearly exalted/prince to buff them anyway. so what's the point?
I could be totally wrong here, but this just seems somehow while great, still completely pointless.

The Stave Abominus D
So, a force stave, but instead of D3 damage, you get double the attacks.
The only reason you'd ever want this is for a cult of mutation combo attempt, and I don't see the effort pay off.


Psyker Powers
Change
Tzeentch Firestorm A
Oh my, this has VASTLY improved sience last time we saw it. kower warp charge makes it easier to cast AND an added "overcharge" mode that basically doubles damage at a low bar of 9 (basically 8) makes this a very tasty focused witchfire. with the new ritual system, getting it's high cast, or slapping extra damage if needed makes characther assassination easier than ever. extremely solid.

Glamour of Tzeenth A
Its back, it's easier to cast, and it provides much valued protection to your centerpiece unit of choice, be it a scarab bomb, Magnus, supercharged prince, a sicarian or anything else. great pick every day.

Doombolt A
Well, this is basically a whole other spell. still, flat 3 MW on a cast of 6 (5) is great. cant go wrong with this.

Temporal Manipulation B
Well, this is nerfed in targeting by forbiding vehciles, yet buffed with a much easier cast. good for sustaining your Magnus, Ahriman or a prince, but little else. techincally a vortex beast, but I'm not sure they are worth healing.

Weaver of Fates C
Yes, a mere C grade for weaver of fates. basically, unless you got a big ticket item that's worth investing the hell into giving any tiny defensive buff, or a good unit that has no ivul at all (like a 5 spawn squad), it won't do much at the end result-rendering it rather situational.

Baleful DevolutionC
This one is a doosy. the fact you cant even try on units less than 6 models means that sometimes, its a total dud. its not easy to cast either, and the expected damage isn't great. magnus can make use of it with his high expected cast values, but anyone else probably should avoid.

Cacodeamonic Curse C
Honestly, i struggle to see this being relevant often. -first you need an enemy shooting unit that is seriusly effected by the debuff, than you need to get in close-and if you are that close, isn't going for the kill better?

Pyric Flux C
As situational as it gets. if you got a warpflamer rubric squad, they have to have it-anybody else never wants it.

TPreplex C
This preplexes me as well. how often is limiting enemy range going to matter, when you need to get in range to do this to begin with? 24" is not much of a limit given table size these days too. the situations where this helps are going to be few and far between.

Vengence
Gaze of Hate C
A targeted smite, easy enough to cast, but rather unreliable. the fact you can whiff doing any damage means you might not be able to use the ritual for bonus damage either. most of the time, a regular smite will do better.

Twist of FateC
This is only C because at some matchups it will be liturally useless. and honestly in many cases the invul save will not be any better than the armor save with AP2. so just keep it off the list and swap it in when it becomes relevant.

Dark Blessing D
This is too much of a gamble to be trusted to any capacity. you need to be extremely close, and then beat a 50% roll AT BEST or it does nothing at all. against marines, or anyhting even tougher, its absolutly useless. against squisher charcters, do you even need it when you are this clsoe?

PresageB
Presicence got quite a bit worse with other changes to our codex (spesifically infernal fulside and the loss of 20 rubric squads) giving it less great targets, but its still going to be desireable in all but the most MSU lists, and probably even there.

Swelled by the Warp C
If you got a CC HQ, he has it. basically only a prince or a really buffed exalted though. (I guess ahriman could at times benefir from it?) not very intresting in a codex not geared for melee smashing.

Temporal Surge A
Got really hurt by the new targeting limitations, but still a solid spell to improve mobility-and that's always an important thing. also, can do some funny things with a loyal thrall sorcerer on disk just doing the ritual secondary and running into cover every turn.

Empyric Guildance D
I really can't think of nearly any situation where this will be relevant as a spell, and in the once-in-a-lifetime it is, switch for it.

Spychic Stalk D
No. just no. so random, and low chance, for just killing a single non-monster, non-vechile, non-characther model? the expected value is just negligble compared to a simple smite.

Desecration of WorldsB
This will really ruing the day for any combat unit that relies on mobility, and has either a high model count, and/or a low wound per model count. repentia will kill themselves (how fitting), so will deamonettes, varius clown units, boys, etc. just don't target the sitting shooty marine unit.



Cults of the Legion
Mutation

Priohecy

Time

Schemeing

Magic

Knowledge

Change

Duplicity

Manipulation



Rituals


Stratagems


Secondary Objectives
Mutate Landscape (warpcraft) A
This is a wonderful mission.
Even if there are only 4 objectives on the board, this is a great outlet for a non-busy psyker (out of range for example) to preform an action, and can be fron-loaded on turn 1 on any objectives in your own line.
In missions with 6 objectives, especially with 2 on your deployment this is extremely easy to score well, it can allow T1 snipes on center field objectives with risen rubricae, stealing with duplicity/gem jumps, etc. the fact you only need a psyker to touch the objectives and not even control it makes it rather easy to score.
Compared to warp ritual, this has a higher cap, and can be done by squad psykers rather than just characters, plus its not just center field, but all over the map-making it much harder to block your approach (because being everywhere is harder than just pushing the center)
Compared to pierce the veil, you dont need to protect a specific caster while he does it over and over.
Compared to interrogation, you are not dependent on keeping close range to enemy characterss while keeping both your psyker and his characthers alive.
The difficulty may increase with each cast-but nothing stops us from spamming attempts.

Burn Emires (shadow operations) D
From riches to rags. this is plain aweful.
Extremely easy to counter (they just need to walk next to it), and can only be done in hostile territory/no-mans land. the only way you score this, is by crushing your opponent so hard the secondaries hardly matter.
I just cant see a scenario where this is worth taking.

Wrath of Magnus (no mercy, no respite) C
Basically free 15 points if the enemy has one or two psykers in his army, but against another psyker army this is a gamble.
So situational, but when the situation comes-its great. too bad it competes with Grind Them Down, who is often a good secondary for us too, plus no prisoners that really takes a beating on hordes.

TSorcereuos Prowess (purge the enemy) C
Yet another situational pick. its rather easy points agaisnt your fellow sons, or GK, and perhaps tyrnids-but basically pointless against anyone else.
Another issue is that it competes for slot with Assassination and Bring it down, two very good secondaries.


This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2021/08/13 09:50:30


can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Looking good!!
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Definitely looking forward to trying a very mechanized list, Rubrics in Rhinos and daemon engines being the core. May actually have a shot at overwhelming AV shooting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 00:03:37


 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





Let's pour one out for the bird boys. At least they are still better then cultists.

Let us also say goodbye to the old Mutalith. You weren't that good but you were fun. Let's see if the new MW galore version is good enough to compensate !

I'm also a bit confused about the Tzaangor Enlightened: seems like their battlefield role will change a lot. But the 2+ auto hits on the bows looks good at least !
The rest looks really fun ! Seems like the incentive will be to fill out the HQ slots as much as possible to use our powers and cabal points as much as possible !

The new Hellbrutes also look nice ! I just wonder if our frontline won't be a bit more fragile now that Tzaangors took a hit.

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Arachnofiend wrote:
Definitely looking forward to trying a very mechanized list, Rubrics in Rhinos and daemon engines being the core. May actually have a shot at overwhelming AV shooting.


Yeah, it looks like they are the best Rhinos in the game right now! Its odd that despite not being known as a vehicle specialised army, the fact that Tsons now get army wide 5++, including on their vehicles may make them now a vehicle specialised army...

The Occult terminators are great! They shoot and fight better than blightlords, and with one psychic and one strategem, you can make one squad as tanky as blightlords, and all for the same cost. Plus they are obsec and immune to morale. They are so good now.

The psychic phase of a Tsons army is scary now. Really scary. The offensive ranged firepower of a Tsons army when you include the psychic phase is considerable, far better than Deathguard.

Oddly enough, I think the rubrics are fine. People keep on comparing them to plague marines but the issue with plague marines was that they didn't have an invul save and their ranged firepower was meh for their points. This is very different from the Rubrics. Even a basic squad of Rubrics have much better ranged firepower than plague marines, plus it comes with 5++ invul stock. Plus they are immune to morale. Plus they come with a psyker standard. Also, their defense is best against small arms fire, and that is exactly what people would fire into Rubrics. I would argue Rubrics are far better as a troop unit than plague marines.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 01:02:17


 
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





I agree with all of your initial statements so far. I think Rhinos are going to be very undervalued at first, but people will see what adding 5++ does. I mean look at the raider. It has proven very survivable with that 5++, and it is T6 4+ where the Rhino is better at T7 and 3+. I mean I am not saying the Rhino is as good (no dark lance, no open top etc.) but I think it will be as survivable. Then you can put a 70 point cheap Tgor unit it in it, drive it up and when it pops out comes those guys to still be on an objective.

I also love the hellbrute with the 5++ for the same reason, they are just going to last longer. I luckily have two of the old Forgeworld Thousand Sons Dreadnoughts, so I am stoked.

I think Minimum squads for both Rubrics and SoT are the way to go. That way the -1 damage Strat is only one CP, and without the double tap strat, there is no need for big units of inferno bolters. I know that buffs usually want one really good target, but I really don't think 10 Rubrics or SoT is the type of hammer unit that putting several buffs make it worthwhile. We have so many buffs that I think putting several buffs spread out among many different min size units making them all like 30% harder to kill, is better than super buffing one of our units making it like 70% harder to kill. Also with cabal points and casting, you want those extra sorcerers.

I love how we can put a Sorceror in Terminator armor as not counting toward HQ with a Exalted. It effectively lets us take one more HQ (I envision Exalted, Term Sor, DP, and Infernal Master) This makes it hard for me to find a place for a Shaman (take a Sor/term sor instead for not much more points), unless using lots of Tgor, which honestly why.

The negatives are again, I don't see much of a use for a shaman as I would rather pay some more points for a Sor/term sor and at some point you can't just keep adding characters. The Enlightened with bows I don't think are going to be nearly worth the points. The sniper angle is interesting, but without D2 on the bows, they are not really going the threaten many characters, and they are still as fragile as before so probably aren't going to get more than one round of shooting before they are cut down. The CC Enlightened might be good, maybe 6 with a shaman as a small shock unit, but doubtful as they are still pretty fragile.

Magnus has great casting rules etc. To bad he is even more likely to be shot off the board if not turn 1, then definitely turn 2. I understand that GW doesn't want the 3++ saves that really became a problem as far back as late 5th edition. However, if one unit in the game was going to have it, it would be Magnus. With keeping him T7 and his inability to hide anywhere, I don't think he is going to survive to get to use those awesome casting powers. I hope I am wrong, but I don't see him being good.

Overall I love the Dex though. I think it will be fun to use, but not oppressive like DE or Admec. Maybe on par with DG, SM and maybe sisters.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Unkillable Exalted Sorcerer?


Dilettante ( extra relic )

Chronos Tutorum ( Extra Trait )
Conniving Plate ( 2+ save, no more than half a model's attacks can be allocated to bearer )

Undying ( -1D )
Beguiling Influence ( no rerolls vs WARLORD )

Glamour ( -1 to be hit )
Temporal ( heal D3 )

If a full squad of VV could melee him he'd lose...1.7 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Definitely looking forward to trying a very mechanized list, Rubrics in Rhinos and daemon engines being the core. May actually have a shot at overwhelming AV shooting.


My vindicators are going to crush. 2+/5++ all day.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 01:22:48


   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think Magnus was rebalanced as a more psychic daemon primarch and that makes sense as he is the strongest psyker daemon primarch. There was no way he could be made tankier than Mortarion, it just wouldn't make sense. So, he is more fragile, but he wants to stay back and keep on casting devastating spells anyway.

Considering how you can build a very shooty (including psykic) Tsons list. Its quite possible you can go for threat saturation with some shooty vehicles and Magnus. If you get turn 1 first turn, and you eliminate or cripple opponent anti tank, they may have nothing that can take out Magnus with shooting for the rest of the game.

And even if you go second, opponent has to decide whether to shoot Magnus or your other shooty vehicles. Its not an easy choice to make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
The Unkillable Exalted Sorcerer?


Dilettante ( extra relic )

Chronos Tutorum ( Extra Trait )
Conniving Plate ( 2+ save, no more than half a model's attacks can be allocated to bearer )

Undying ( -1D )
Beguiling Influence ( no rerolls vs WARLORD )

Glamour ( -1 to be hit )
Temporal ( heal D3 )

If a full squad of VV could melee him he'd lose...1.7 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Definitely looking forward to trying a very mechanized list, Rubrics in Rhinos and daemon engines being the core. May actually have a shot at overwhelming AV shooting.


My vindicators are going to crush. 2+/5++ all day.


Nah, not unkillable. One shot of of dark lance that hits and gets through the invul save will probably kill him.

And yes, T8 Vindicators with a 5++ save sounds crazy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 01:29:19


 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






 xeen wrote:
Overall I love the Dex though. I think it will be fun to use, but not oppressive like DE or Admec. Maybe on par with DG, SM and maybe sisters.


No, we are much better than DG and SM, probably better than sisters too.
We are just a low skill floor and easy to play wrong, and high skill ceiling and hard to really make the most of.

Its a skill intensive codex for sure. many choices to make in-game, much more than any other codex.
Our power comes not from having the strongest tools, but from having so godamn many of them available at all times, unlike SM who have far greater selection tools, but have to choose in advance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 02:51:10


can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Baleful Devolution is a potential monster spell. WC8, 18", visible, 6 or more models. Roll a D6 based on test result on a 6 do D3 MW.

Magnus should get a 10 or 11, and then spend 9 CP to give another +2 and then go fishing for 6s? His Smite is 2D3 at that level, but this promises to be that on average with a chance for some lucky rolls. Ahriman would probably get a 10 ( rolling a 7 with +1 ).

What are we thinking is a good spell for double cast? Perplex maybe?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:

Nah, not unkillable. One shot of of dark lance that hits and gets through the invul save will probably kill him.


Well, don't just leave him hanging like that! It'd still be a long shot for just one -- 1 * .5 * .833 * .5 = 0.2 so a 20% change to get to the wound step. With 5 wounds and -1D they'd need to roll a 6,so a 1/3 chance there. Overall 7% chance, I think. He'll otherwise hold down just about any unit in melee with little problem it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Our power comes not from having the strongest tools, but from having so godamn many of them available at all times, unlike SM who have far greater selection tools, but have to choose in advance.


This is the big problem. There are so many options now and you tend to want all of them so getting a good focus and plan for the table will be difficult.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 01:41:53


   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Daedalus81 wrote:
Baleful Devolution is a potential monster spell. WC8, 18", visible, 6 or more models. Roll a D6 based on test result on a 6 do D3 MW.

Magnus should get a 10 or 11, and then spend 9 CP to give another +2 and then go fishing for 6s? His Smite is 2D3 at that level, but this promises to be that on average with a chance for some lucky rolls. Ahriman would probably get a 10 ( rolling a 7 with +1 ).

What are we thinking is a good spell for double cast? Perplex maybe?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:

Nah, not unkillable. One shot of of dark lance that hits and gets through the invul save will probably kill him.


Well, don't just leave him hanging like that! It'd still be a long shot for just one -- 1 * .5 * .833 * .5 = 0.2 so a 20% change to get to the wound step. With 5 wounds and -1D they'd need to roll a 6,so a 1/3 chance there. Overall 7% chance, I think. He'll otherwise hold down just about any unit in melee with little problem it seems.


Hmm, I thought he only had 4 wounds. Ok, he is better now. Still, the best defense such characters have is to be within 3 inches of other units so they are untargetable in the first place. So, I don't think this makes him game breaking in any way. He isn't someone I would move around solo on the board on his own, and if he is going to be near other units, spending so much effort on his defense seems like kinda a waste, cos we got lots of nice relics and warlords traits now we can choose from.
   
Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch





Think about this. Rubric sorcerer can take the warp time power. No longer need it for DP. Move advance warp time move advance flame away. Probably only time ten rubrics make sense. And that unit has to be dealt with by opponent. Also any charge 1cp flamer over watch.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Magnus knows 18 powers omg. There is no way he can't find suitable powers to use during his psychic phase. lol

Hmmm.. Occult terminators fight well, but Rubrics aren't that great in combat. Honestly, I don't think a Tsons army wants to get into combat. It operates best at smite range. Other than hellbrutes and daemon engines like Mauler fiend or defilers, nothing fights that great in Tsons. Ok, maybe Magnus too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 02:09:40


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 xeen wrote:
Think about this. Rubric sorcerer can take the warp time power. No longer need it for DP. Move advance warp time move advance flame away. Probably only time ten rubrics make sense. And that unit has to be dealt with by opponent. Also any charge 1cp flamer over watch.


And they only need a 6 with the +1. Hop out of a nice solid transport, go for a little stroll, melt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Magnus knows 18 powers omg. There is no way he can't find suitable powers to use during his psychic phase. lol


Yea, the choice is overwhelming. I am a bit scared to have him without a 3++ though. -1D is nice, but plink is what gets him against AdMech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm.. Occult terminators fight well, but Rubrics aren't that great in combat. Honestly, I don't think a Tsons army wants to get into combat. It operates best at smite range. Other than hellbrutes and daemon engines like Mauler fiend or defilers, nothing fights that great in Tsons. Ok, maybe Magnus too.


Rubrics are better than they were where at least they always have the +1A on and the staff swings at S7 now, which is situationally handy. They die pretty slowly, too, since most melee is D1. Still not the best place to be.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 02:15:29


   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, the thing though is that these days, many armies will have at least one or two dedicated combat units that will try and charge you to ruin your day.

Tsons army will have to look out for close combat specialists.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Terminators and Daemon Engines are pretty nasty in melee, plus you can use your rhinos to bog stuff down and prevent it from charging your Rubrics. I think we've got plenty of counter-charge, but I do think you should be thinking of it more in terms of counter-charge rather than assault as a main strategy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 02:30:07


 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Arachnofiend wrote:
Terminators and Daemon Engines are pretty nasty in melee, plus you can use your rhinos to bog stuff down and prevent it from charging your Rubrics. I think we've got plenty of counter-charge, but I do think you should be thinking of it more in terms of counter-charge rather than assault as a main strategy.


Yeah. I agree. Tsons is primarily psychic and shooting. The melee it has is more for counter charge. Been watching the battle reports on TTT and Tabletop titans. If people weren't playing Grey knights against Tsons, with grey knights getting that 5+ save aegis, the Tsons mortal wounds output would have been absolutely scary. I was seeing 9 mortal wounds from just one specific psychic power. And Tsons can hurl out a TON of psychic powers, plus add even more damage to their smites too. They have a good chance of casting super smites too.

Any other army without the grey knights Aegis is going to be pummeled with a ton of mortala wounds. I believe the psychic phase of a Tsons army can throw out as much or even more mortal wounds than 3 Decimaters with soul burner petards.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 02:38:35


 
   
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Magnus looks pretty terrible to me, so very squishy for the points, and I'm not sure he even really does all that much, anyway. His psychic frankly isn't as impressive as you'd expect it to be, basically just Ahriman with another additional +1...for almost 300 points more. You're going to spend so many CP reserving him to keep him from getting shot off the table T1, and when he does show up, he doesn't even necessarily do all that much. Not being able to warptime him also hurts a lot for keeping him alive and getting him where he needs to be. Daemon prince loses a lot of power by not being a valid warptime target, too.

I think spawn are low key great, they get by far the best use out of the new weaver and a 5 man unit is 115 points, can still be warptimed, and can now do an average of 35 attacks at S5 AP-2 D2 for 1CP, with the ability to customize that profile for more AP or better wound rolls instead of the 10 extra average attacks. Hitting on 4s sucks, but there are various ways to improve that to a passable 3.

Rules question - if you take a CSM detachment, can you still use the old vets on TS stuff? The detachment unlocks the strat, the strat keys off HA, which TS still have, so I don't see any reason why you couldn't?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 02:47:02


 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Added listing for HQs and relics.
Might be a cause for commotion for some.

Yuki-the spawn didn't change at all, they were exactly the same last codex.
I used them a lot, they are good, but they don't carry a game. too squishy.



As for the melee arguement, I'd say we are better than most people expect.
Between scarabs, helbrutes and spawn-we can pack a decent punch, and our units don't shift quickly, not even the rubrics.





This is going to take a while to fill up my opinions on everything (heck, to digest everything!)
And then I have to start looking at forgeworld, because boy some FW stuff get hectic with a 5++

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 02:51:18


can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The spawn were good in the old codex too, but they did change, in two ways - first, they went to 2d3 attacks instead of 1d6, which is a lot more reliable, and second, as I said, weaver now gives them a 4++, whereas before it gave them a 5++.

The strat also changed a little in that it now gives you +1 attack instead of rerolling the number of attacks. I.e. instead of 1d6 rerolling, you now get 2d3+1 - 3d3+1 if you take the extra attacks option. It's a slightly higher output than before - 7 average vs like 6.5ish before.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 02:55:00


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
Magnus looks pretty terrible to me, so very squishy for the points, and I'm not sure he even really does all that much, anyway. His psychic frankly isn't as impressive as you'd expect it to be, basically just Ahriman with another additional +1...for almost 300 points more. You're going to spend so many CP reserving him to keep him from getting shot off the table T1, and when he does show up, he doesn't even necessarily do all that much. Not being able to warptime him also hurts a lot for keeping him alive and getting him where he needs to be. Daemon prince loses a lot of power by not being a valid warptime target, too.

I think spawn are low key great, they get by far the best use out of the new weaver and a 5 man unit is 115 points, can still be warptimed, and can now do an average of 35 attacks at S5 AP-2 D2 for 1CP, with the ability to customize that profile for more AP or better wound rolls instead of the 10 extra average attacks. Hitting on 4s sucks, but there are various ways to improve that to a passable 3.

Rules question - if you take a CSM detachment, can you still use the old vets on TS stuff? The detachment unlocks the strat, the strat keys off HA, which TS still have, so I don't see any reason why you couldn't?


I suppose you could since they're still heretic. Spending a lot of extra points to save a CP though.

Agree on Spawn. They were close to good last book. With a 4++ it should be a little easier.

Magnus is +2 over Ahriman. +3 for two spells if you double cabal him. He'd be great with Firestorm, Smite, and Baleful. There's less you need to babysit him so he's cheaper in effect...by force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Yuki-the spawn didn't change at all, they were exactly the same last codex.
I used them a lot, they are good, but they don't carry a game. too squishy.


Remember that spawn, as beasts, can walk through walls. You can easily hide them and move them out once 4++ is up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 02:56:35


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well you wouldn't soup just for that, but it is a decent side benefit, plus it means you can vets twice in a phase if you want to on two different things. Not sure that CSM really open up that many great options that it'd be worth it, just something that occurred to me.

A lot of the relics are really, really good, probably the best thing about the book aside from the psychic stuff. That disc that lets you consolidate in any direction 6", fall back and still cast powers, and advance and charge all in one package...phwoar. Too bad you can't give it to a daemon prince.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 03:05:37


 
   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






yukishiro1 wrote:
The spawn were good in the old codex too, but they did change, in two ways - first, they went to 2d3 attacks instead of 1d6, which is a lot more reliable, and second, as I said, weaver now gives them a 4++, whereas before it gave them a 5++.

The strat also changed a little in that it now gives you +1 attack instead of rerolling the number of attacks. I.e. instead of 1d6 rerolling, you now get 2d3+1 - 3d3+1 if you take the extra attacks option. It's a slightly higher output than before - 7 average vs like 6.5ish before.


How on earth did I miss these changes XD
Well, still does not change my opinion of them.
They are good, but not carries.


yukishiro1 wrote:
Well you wouldn't soup just for that, but it is a decent side benefit, plus it means you can vets twice in a phase if you want to on two different things. Not sure that CSM really open up that many great options that it'd be worth it, just something that occurred to me.


Honestly, souping in just a few TS for another chaos army, might still be good. the cabal rituals are only a loss when you get a lot, but if all your soup is like ahrima and a few rubrics? practically nothing is lost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 03:00:28


can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The soup list also means you could conceivably warptime two things, one CSM with warptime and one TS with the new warptime. Still not sure there's enough there to go on, but there are probably some weird soup lists that might end up working in really odd ways.
   
Made in ca
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

Pretty Happy with the dex. There seems to be a ton of Depth and combos tho throw around.

Gotta Disagree with your rating of an Exalted at B.. They are an A for sure as you can kit them out in a ton of ways and load them up for blasting tons of mortal wounds or whatever you really need. In my opinion, they are better than Princes right now. They also unlock the sorcerers/Termie sorcerers no slot as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 03:43:13


4000+
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Thousand Sons 4000+
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Sasori wrote:
They also unlock the sorcerers/Termie sorcerers no slot as well.


This is my favorite part about exalteds.

   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Sure, you CAN kit the exalted
But it costs. and as the costs go up, they need to compete with the bigger, beefier and beatier prince.
And unlocking extra slots for sorcerers and termisors is of no value, when these two datasheets are of little to no value themselves.

I just can't see an exalted beyond bare bones 100 pointer being a good choice. you get the casting and aura. you need more? get more dudes.

I rank the exalted at B because he's useful, but he's never your first pick, and likely not your second either. he's third or even forth down the line of HQs.
His unique value is the aura, that ahriman (the must have) also has, and so does princes (who are basically exalted on steroids)
We do not lack in casting spells, so his 2 spells are not a highlight. the cabal points are great, but we get them elsewhere too, so again not a highlight.

He's a decent package that gets several things and provide a decent effect. enough to rate as good, not enough to rate as top tier.

The Infernal Master ranks just as high because while he has an inferior statline, less casts, less cabal, and no aura-he has some unique abilities that can't be acquired anywhere else in the codex. there is a reason to say "I need specifically the Infernal Master"
So he's overall weaker, but in the grand scheme slightly more valuable to the codex.

Time can prove me wrong, but until I see some actual results of an exalted beefed up ending up relevant, I'd stick to my current belief

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 04:02:17


can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, you CAN kit the exalted
But it costs. and as the costs go up, they need to compete with the bigger, beefier and beatier prince.
And unlocking extra slots for sorcerers and termisors is of no value, when these two datasheets are of little to no value themselves.

I just can't see an exalted beyond bare bones 100 pointer being a good choice. you get the casting and aura. you need more? get more dudes.


Time can prove me wrong, but until I see some actual results of an exalted beefed up ending up relevant, I'd stick to my current belief


DP is a bit over valued now. He was good when you could use him to pick up gaze and have a nice punch in combat. Talons are +1A max and there's no +1A for first round of combat.
So that's 6 S7 AP1 D2 attacks. Cast two, deny one. 175 with fly.

DPs are so often on their own in combat and they will not blend as easily now. Exalted have nearly comparable melee, the same casting, and a flamer for 40 points cheaper, which you can invest into another sorcerer so an extra 50 to 60 gets you yet another two casts, one deny, and two cabal points.

That way you can go Patrol with Ahriman, Exalted and 2x Sorc in Termie giving you four HQs, one troops req, and then letting you dump into Scarabs and support vehicles.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 04:23:54


   
Made in us
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Ahriman does not let you get another sorcerer as he isn't cult.

And I'm pretty sure the claw has no limitation on only giving a single extra attack, you just get an extra attack per claw. compared to the old sheet, the double claw prince only lost 1 attack-and got quite a bit cheaper. dual claw is 25 points cheaper than it used to be (maybe you missed this little tidbit and that's why you think they are overvalued)
And true, no +1 attack on first turn of combat, but the prince also got +1 base attack.

In a rather simplistic comparison, for the 40 points price hike from bare bones exalted to bare bones prince you get +2M, +2T, +3W, and +1Ld on your statline, a bigger base to send out a bigger aura. some would argue that alone is worth the price.
And your melee stats change from 5 attacks at S7 Ap-1 Dd3 to 7 attacks at S7 Ap-2 D2
That's not really all that close. against a marine profile its basically doubles the expected damage output.

Seems to me to be a no-brainer if you are not starving for points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 04:41:23


can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Right - potentially no Ahriman or one less sorcerer.

Datasheet does not have option for a pair of talons. +1A is all he'll get now. Talons are AP1 as well so quite close to the staff. The toughness and wounds only matter if you really want to get into combat. DP will still be good for that, but he doesn't work magic against some of the units out that that he'll face. Disc and Wings are same speed.

You can see talons stuff here:
https://youtu.be/TKvMVkrW888?t=2298

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/08 04:56:43


   
 
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