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Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






I'm confused on how this rules work together.

Brutal but cunning: you can make an additional attack for each one that did not get to the inflict damage stage.
Swuigosaur jaws: each time the bearer fights he can make 3 additional attacks and no more than 3. Every time you roll 6 to wound, you inflict 3 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends
Killchoppa: if you roll a 6 to wound, you inflict 1 mortal wound in addition to any damage.
Goff: each time you make mellee attack a hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit.

So, from the get go, it's a mess of extra attack rules interactions.
Extra attacks from bbk (brutal but kunning) can only be made with a killchoppa as squig jaws state that no more than 3 attacks can be made each time you fight and extra attacks from bbk do not start a new fight sequence.

Evey 6 to hit generates 2 hits, you get to make an extra attack only if none of them reached inflict damage stage, so, if you roll, say two 1-s, two 4-s and two 6-s, you got to devide your dice into 4 pools. First pool are 1-s that generate extra attacks, 2d pool are 4-s that can generate an extra attack if they don't go through the wound and save step. 3-d pool are 2 hits from the first 6, and the 4-th are 2 hits from the second 6. You have to roll them separately cause you need both to fail to deal any damage to generate an extra hit.

Now what I'm not sure about:
Do mortal wounds on a 6 to wound from a killchoppa prevent you from making an extra attack if the regular damage fails to go through to-wound and save?
Same for the mortals for 6 from a squig jaw - but with a different wording of emidiately dealing 3 mw and ending the attack sequence.
Can squig jaws generate extra attacks as they are written to be extra attacks themselves - like a choppa or a chain sword - and there was a faq that prevents extra attacks generating new extra attacks.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 06:02:54


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




A mortal wound occurs at the inflict damage step, so would prevent you from making another attack
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






But they don't it just says to use the entry of this step. They seem to be happening outside if the sequence at all.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You've rolled a 6 to wound, you gen a mortal wound. That mortal wound gets applied at the inflict damage step. As such that attack HAS inflicted damage. What is the issue here?
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




In terms of the mortals from the killchoppa they are seperate from the killchoppa attack - the mortal wounds are generated the "wound roll" step and occur in addition to the attack. So if your opponent makes their armour or invuln save against the killchoppa attack you get to make another attack.

In terms of Brutal but cunning and Swuigosaur jaws, it would seem that the jaws can't benefit by the FAQ you alluded to.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




JakeSiren wrote:
In terms of the mortals from the killchoppa they are seperate from the killchoppa attack - the mortal wounds are generated the "wound roll" step and occur in addition to the attack. So if your opponent makes their armour or invuln save against the killchoppa attack you get to make another attack.

In terms of Brutal but cunning and Swuigosaur jaws, it would seem that the jaws can't benefit by the FAQ you alluded to.

I disagree


By definition, having rolled a 6 to wound, you will wound. You go to make saves, and even if the attack is saved, you WILL get through to the Infoict Damage step because you have a mortal wound sitting there.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




nosferatu1001 wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
In terms of the mortals from the killchoppa they are seperate from the killchoppa attack - the mortal wounds are generated the "wound roll" step and occur in addition to the attack. So if your opponent makes their armour or invuln save against the killchoppa attack you get to make another attack.

In terms of Brutal but cunning and Swuigosaur jaws, it would seem that the jaws can't benefit by the FAQ you alluded to.

I disagree


By definition, having rolled a 6 to wound, you will wound. You go to make saves, and even if the attack is saved, you WILL get through to the Infoict Damage step because you have a mortal wound sitting there.

The mortal wound doesn't get to the inflict damage step of the attack sequence since it is something outside of the attack sequence.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






From what I gathered from the rulebook, extra attacks that are written within a weapon profile (like +1 with a chain sword or +3 with a squigosaur) are not affected by the faq as it specifically states - extra attacks during the attack sequence. And those attacka from a weapon add up before the attack sequence.

Now how about extra hits on 6s as a goff. Suppose, you roll a 6, get1 extra hit (which is not am extra attack), but than, say your initial hit doesn't wound and your additional hit wounds and inflicts damage. Do you get to make an extra attack? Or does the extra hit count?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




JakeSiren wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
In terms of the mortals from the killchoppa they are seperate from the killchoppa attack - the mortal wounds are generated the "wound roll" step and occur in addition to the attack. So if your opponent makes their armour or invuln save against the killchoppa attack you get to make another attack.

In terms of Brutal but cunning and Swuigosaur jaws, it would seem that the jaws can't benefit by the FAQ you alluded to.

I disagree


By definition, having rolled a 6 to wound, you will wound. You go to make saves, and even if the attack is saved, you WILL get through to the Infoict Damage step because you have a mortal wound sitting there.

The mortal wound doesn't get to the inflict damage step of the attack sequence since it is something outside of the attack sequence.

Why do you say that? It is by definition part of the attack sequence.
The attack sequence for attack A, rolled singly, WILL get to the inflict damage step. Exactly the same as a sniper rifle rolling a 6 to wound, you go to inflict damage even if the save is made.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




nosferatu1001 wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
In terms of the mortals from the killchoppa they are seperate from the killchoppa attack - the mortal wounds are generated the "wound roll" step and occur in addition to the attack. So if your opponent makes their armour or invuln save against the killchoppa attack you get to make another attack.

In terms of Brutal but cunning and Swuigosaur jaws, it would seem that the jaws can't benefit by the FAQ you alluded to.

I disagree


By definition, having rolled a 6 to wound, you will wound. You go to make saves, and even if the attack is saved, you WILL get through to the Infoict Damage step because you have a mortal wound sitting there.

The mortal wound doesn't get to the inflict damage step of the attack sequence since it is something outside of the attack sequence.

Why do you say that? It is by definition part of the attack sequence.
The attack sequence for attack A, rolled singly, WILL get to the inflict damage step. Exactly the same as a sniper rifle rolling a 6 to wound, you go to inflict damage even if the save is made.

Which part of the attack sequence do you think deals with mortal wounds?

In addition, there is the rare rule "Multiple attacks that inflict mortal wounds". It states that all of the normal damage inflicted by all of the attacking unit’s attacks is resolved before any of the mortal wounds are resolved.

It's clear that generated mortal wounds are outside of the attack sequence.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




That doesn't mean it's outside of the sequence. It just stops you ordering damage and MW damage in a way that benefits player.

Inflict damage step, like the riles for mortal wounds states? It states you INFLICT DAMAGE ...as described above. Above, is the inflict damage step.

Nothing states it is outside of the attack sequence. In the contrary, it is EXPLICITLY PART OF.the attack sequence.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that
no armour or force field can withstand their fury. Each mortal
wound inflicts 1 point of damage on the target unit, and they are
always applied one at a time. Do not make a wound roll or saving
throw (including invulnerable saves) against a mortal wound –
just allocate it as you would any other attack and inflict damage
to a model in the target unit (pg 18).


This makes it very clear IMO that if your attack generates a mortal wound, that counts as inflicting damage from that attack, no matter what happens with the rest of the attack.
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Ok, so I'll go through the whole thing:

5 base attacks, +1 from killchoppa, +1 from WHAAAAAG!, 3 from squig.

so 7 killchoppas and 3 from squig.

Killchoppa rolls 1,2,3,4,5,6,4
Squig rolls 1,4,6

You now have 7 killchoppa hits, and 3 squig hits (because of the exploding 6's).

Roll to wound gets you:
Killchoppa-1,2,3,4,5,6,6
Squig-3,4,5

You have 5 killchoppa saves, and 3 squigbite saves to make, and you will recieve 2 mortals from the choppa after regular wounds are dealt.

Saves on a 4++ will be:
3 saves on the killchoppa, and 2 saves on the bites. You would roll the saves individually of course, and you have saved 1 of the mortal wound killchoppas.

You recieve 4 damage from the killchoppas that got through, 3 from the squigbite, and 2 mortals.

The boss now gets to make 2 additional attacks for the two killchoppa attacks that did not inflict damage (one of the saves inflicted a mortal wound). The squigjaw that got saved cannot attack again because of the only 3 attacks rule.

These 2 additional attacks can roll 6's to hit and explode from goffs trait.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 22:30:28


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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Why are you getting an extra attack from the MW generating attack?
The rules explicitly state that a MW is inflicted in the inflict damage step. This means you cannot generate an attack, as you DID inflict damage. It doesn't matter that the armour save was passed.
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






You arent, as I explained in my post.

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




"The boss now gets to make 2 additional attacks for the two killchoppa attacks that did not inflict damage (one of the saves inflicted a mortal wound"

This was a really bad way of exploan8ng as I read this as something else

Just deal with it one at a time. No fast rolling!
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






I think I'll just wait for faq and not buy a squigosaur yet.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




nosferatu1001 wrote:
That doesn't mean it's outside of the sequence. It just stops you ordering damage and MW damage in a way that benefits player.

Inflict damage step, like the riles for mortal wounds states? It states you INFLICT DAMAGE ...as described above. Above, is the inflict damage step.

Nothing states it is outside of the attack sequence. In the contrary, it is EXPLICITLY PART OF.the attack sequence.

The mortal wound generate by the attack isn't the attack inflicting damage.

Looking at it simply from the "Multiple attacks that inflict mortal wounds" rare rules, it tells us that "all the normal damage inflicted by the attacking unit’s attacks are resolved against that target before any of the mortal wounds are inflicted on it"

Let's say we roll some killchopp attacks against a target. We get to the point where we have resolved the attacks (they either inflict damage or fail to), but we haven't yet inflicted the mortal wounds. The rule for brutal but cunning must be resolved before we are allowed to resolve the mortal wounds because otherwise we have attacks that are resolved *after* the mortal wounds are inflicted, which is in direct contradiction of the rare rule.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Except it is, as covered by the rules for mortal wounds! Second para under mortal wounds. Please read the core rule. Then explain how it is not part of the sequence, when the rule states it is.

The Attack that had a 6 to wound, but was saved, has by the actual rules for moral wounds, stil reached the inflict damage step. Thus is covered by the rules above.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/13 12:01:58


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




The paragraph that starts with "If an attack inflicts mortal wounds in addition to the normal damage, resolve the normal damage first."?

How does this not demonstrate that the attack and the mortal wound generated by the attack are separate things?

*Edit*
To highlight my point, after you roll a 6 to wound, you still have the attack that your opponent needs to allocate to a model, then roll a saving through, then potentially inflict damage. You also have a mortal wound queued up for after all attacks are resolved, for your opponent to allocate to a model then inflict damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/13 12:06:12


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




They're part of the same sequence. Prove they're not.
The rules for mortal wounds tell you they inflict damage at the same step, inflict damage

All that tells you is the order. Nothing more.

Prove this is an entire new Attack sequence. Rules para please. So far we're told it inflicts damage in the same step of the same single Attack sequence, as the rules only cover a single attack. Nothing in the rules for mortal wounds make this a new sequence
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Huh? I never said that mortal wounds were an attack sequence. I said they were outside of the attack sequence.

They are demonstrably outside of the normal attack sequence as you resolve all allocated attacks before resolving the mortal wounds generated by them.

Say you slow rolled 7 attacks. The first attack you roll a 6 to wound and generate a mortal wound. You need to resolve the 6 other attack sequences before you can resolve the mortal wound. Ergo, it is outside of the attack sequence.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Except they're not - they're explicitly part of it, at the "inflict damage " step, as the rules tell you.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except they're not - they're explicitly part of it, at the "inflict damage " step, as the rules tell you.

Sorry, which part do you have issue with?

I roll the first dice, get a 6 to wound. Am I allowed to resolve the mortal wound? No, because "all the normal damage inflicted by the attacking unit’s attacks are resolved against that target before any of the mortal wounds are inflicted on it".

The rare rule literally says I'm not allowed to resolve the mortal wound generated in the first attack sequence until after I have resolved all of the other assigned attacks.
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






The mortal wounds do happen after regular damage, yes.

The attack that generated the mortal wound, however, has in fact generated damage, so cannot be re-done.


Unless your telling me that the mortal wound is not part of that attacks damage dealt?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/13 12:57:48


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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 Eihnlazer wrote:
The mortal wounds do happen after regular damage, yes.

The attack that generated the mortal wound, however, has in fact generated damage, so cannot be re-done.


Unless your telling me that the mortal wound is not part of that attacks damage dealt?

That's what I'm saying.

The attack generates a mortal wound which is resolved and considered separately to the attack.
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Thats just it though, it isnt seperate from the attack. It's just allocated after normal damage is allocated.

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Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Eihnlazer wrote:
Thats just it though, it isnt seperate from the attack. It's just allocated after normal damage is allocated.


Iirc it says to do like I need the allocate damage step. But it is not an allocate damage step itself, so, it's out of sequence and is not affected by the extra atk faq.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




JakeSiren wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
The mortal wounds do happen after regular damage, yes.

The attack that generated the mortal wound, however, has in fact generated damage, so cannot be re-done.


Unless your telling me that the mortal wound is not part of that attacks damage dealt?

That's what I'm saying.

The attack generates a mortal wound which is resolved and considered separately to the attack.

Except it isn't.
It's not its own attack sequence, it is part of the same attack sequence, and inflicts damage during the same sequence, at the inflict damage step. At that step, normal damage goes first.

Give you can NEVER fast roll damage, any solution you prooose involving fast rolling damage isn't rules based. A singular attack, generating a mortal wound, will complete the inflict damage step. There is no separate attack sequence, because the rule says there isn't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/13 17:42:20


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






The rule doesn't say it's in any sequence at all.
   
 
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