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All Is Dust
Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 1 is allocated to a model in this unit, add 1 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.

This is All Is Dust, as of the 9e Thousand Sons codex. As a defensive ability, it currently faces four problems:
  • 1) Due to Space Marines moving to 2 Wounds, the meta has shifted toward Damage 2 weapons – both in list building and in army design. While not every army can load up with these en-masse, they're a lot more common and a lot less specialised than they used to be. This makes All Is Dust applicable less often.
  • 2) Due to Rubric Marines specifically moving to 2 Wounds, the ideal weapon for killing them is now Damage 2 – which is exactly what bypasses All Is Dust. You used to have to "overkill" Rubric Marines to bypass All Is Dust – now you just have to hit them with exactly what kills them best.
  • 3) Due to Rubric Marines having a 5+ invulnerable save, All Is Dust has no effect for them against AP-3 weaponry – which is a favourite on Space Marine-killing attacks, such as plasma or power weapons.
  • 4) Due to Scarab Occult Terminators having a 2+ armour save, All Is Dust has no effect for them against AP-0 weaponry. Not a major problem, just kind of irritating that they cap out there.

  • I've come up with three potential reworks that address all four issues (or the first three, at least). In order of complexity:
  • Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 2 or lower is allocated to a model in this unit, add 1 to any saving throw made against that attack.
  • Each time a model in this unit would lose a wound as a result of an attack, roll one D6 and subtract the Damage characteristic of that attack: on a 4+, that wound is not lost.
  • Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, you can re-roll any saving throw roll that is greater than the Damage characteristic of that attack.


  • I've also detailed my thought processes as I went through a series of different versions below:
    Option 1: Boost Invulnerable Saves
    Spoiler:
  • Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 1 is allocated to a model in this unit, add 1 to any saving throw made against that attack.

  • Allowing All Is Dust to boost invulnerable saving throws as well as armour saving throws is simple and straightforward, but does nothing to help with problems 1, 2, or 4. It just moves the cap on what ignores Rubric Marines' All Is Dust boost from AP-3, D1 to AP-4, D1. Not bad, but not really the solution I'm after.

    Option 2: Re-Roll Instead of Boost
    Spoiler:
  • Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 1 is allocated to a model in this unit, you can re-roll the saving throw.

  • Pretty simple and straightforward. For Rubric Marines, this works out a little better than a +1 bonus, up until you hit AP-3 or higher, at which point it's much better due to becoming 5++ with a re-roll, rather than just 5++ (it's still only a little better than the +1 invulnerable bonus we tried above). So it solves problem 3. It also solves problem 4, in quite an extreme fashion – against D1 AP-0 weaponry, Scarab Occult Terminators go from 83% saves to 97% saves. Against everything else they're just slightly better than a +1, but that's damn-near impervious against D1 AP-0. That's probably too much.

    Option 3: Apply Both Invulnerable And Armour
    Spoiler:
  • Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 1 is allocated to a model in this unit, that model can use both its armour save and its invulnerable save against that attack. Make an armour saving throw, then an invulnerable saving throw.

  • This is an attempt to keep the benefits of option 2, but with lessened power. It effectively works out to a re-roll, but with the second roll "capped" at 5++. The result is weaker than a +1 bonus against AP-0 (or AP-1, on Terminators) but evens out or is stronger against everything else. It solves problem 3, and solves problem 4 in a less extreme fashion; they go from 83% saves to 88%. Unfortunately, it still doesn't touch problems 1-2, which are arguably the real issue here.

    Option 4: Feel No Pain
    Spoiler:
  • Each time a model in this unit would lose a wound, if it was not as a result of a mortal wound, roll one D6: on a 5+, that wound is not lost.
  • Each time a model in this unit would lose a wound as a result of an attack, roll one D6 and subtract the Damage characteristic of that attack: on a 4+, that wound is not lost.

  • Revisiting option 3 from another, simpler angle, since "use both invulnerable and armour" is basically just FnP that has synergy with any invulnerable-boosting spells etc. It's relevant regardless of the opponent's AP and your Save, but is less effective the higher their Damage is – since it ignores Damage rather than saves, you're more likely to lose Wounds to "overkill" weapons with high Damage. It's roughly as strong as +1 Save against existing D1 weapons (worse vs AP-0, better vs AP-3) and sits between Plague Marines and existing Rubrics against D2. It solves problems 1, 2, 3, and 4, without being massively powerful.

    The main issues are that it totally abandons the entire existing structure of All Is Dust, and it continues to scale against D3+ weapons (and does so better than Disgustingly Resilient, even if it doesn't do so terribly well), which also means the "feeling" of wading through small arms fire but being blasted apart by bigger guns is lost. The second version handles that pretty cleanly by introducing scaling; it's a 5+ against D1, a 6+ against D2, and vanishes against D3.

    Option 5: Mess With The Qualifiers
    Spoiler:
  • Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 2 or lower is allocated to a model in this unit, [Get Bonus].

  • Very straightforward. Whichever of the previous options picked (or if sticking with the original), just up the qualifier from D1 to D2, or even to [Wounds +1]. This is, relatively speaking, exactly where All Is Dust was before; unless you're overkilling the Rubric Marines, they get a bonus to saves. Unfortunately, because of the binary nature of saves, it effectively has a doubled payoff; against 5 D1 hits at AP-1, All Is Dust will prevent 0.83 damage. If All Is Dust applies to 5 D2 hits at AP-1, it'll instead prevent 1.66 damage. There are a lot of potential knock-on effects – but overall, this plus the official All Is Dust is still weaker than T5+Disgustingly Resilient (strikes even only against D2 AP 0, which is vanishingly rare). This is effectively what I tried for the second version of Option 4, but that comes with automatic scaling-down.

    Option 6: Scaling Re-Roll
    Spoiler:
  • Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit, you can re-roll any saving throw roll that is greater than the Damage characteristic of that attack.

  • Taking lessons learned from elsewhere – this is a re-roll (like Option 2) that scales (like Option 4b). Against D1 attacks, it works out the same as re-rolling with your invulnerable save (i.e. slightly worse than +1 vs AP-0, the same or slightly better elsewhere). However, unlike option 3, it scales up against Damage 2 – working out about the same as option 4b. It also effectively gives you "re-roll 1s" against D3 AP-3 or higher, which is a relatively niche boost.

    Overall, this feels more complex than option 4b, but does preserve the "fragile", Save-focused nature of All Is Dust better than a FnP roll.
       
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    RevlidRas wrote:
    Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 2 or lower is allocated to a model in this unit, add 1 to any saving throw made against that attack.

    How would this work with regards to Damage D3 weapons? A "Damage characteristic" is what's on the datasheet, not what you roll. So a damage roll of D3 that yields a 1 is not treated as a Damage 1 attack.



    Mind, I think you make a fair point about "All Is Dust" being obsolete in the current meta. There's the option to treat AP -1 as AP 0, which has precedent (see Order of the Valorous Heart). But overall, I find it odd that the current "All Is Dust" affects the save roll, rather than the wound roll.

    Perhaps a "cannot be wounded on better than 3+" rule, like a lesser and non-stratagem version of Transhuman Physiology? Or is that overly circumstantial, since it only affects Strength 8+?

    .

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 16:34:54


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    -Guardsman- wrote:
    RevlidRas wrote:
    Each time an attack with a Damage characteristic of 2 or lower is allocated to a model in this unit, add 1 to any saving throw made against that attack.

    How would this work with regards to Damage D3 weapons? A "Damage characteristic" is what's on the datasheet, not what you roll. So a damage roll of D3 that yields a 1 is not treated as a Damage 1 attack.
    Same way it currently does, I guess – unless it specifically says Damage 2, you don't get the benefit. Kind of sucks, but there you go.

    The only one of those three options that actually works against D3/D6 weapons is the FnP one, since it applies after any damage roll.

    -Guardsman- wrote:
    Mind, I think you make a fair point about "All Is Dust" being obsolete in the current meta. There's the option to treat AP -1 as AP 0, which has precedent (see Order of the Valorous Heart). But overall, I find it odd that the current "All Is Dust" affects the save roll, rather than the wound roll.

    Perhaps a "cannot be wounded on better than 3+" rule, like a lesser and non-stratagem version of Transhuman Physiology? Or is that overly circumstantial, since it only affects Strength 8+?
    I think the idea is that the Thousand Sons are brittle terracotta soldiers, as opposed to the squishy Death Guard, who sponge up lots of damage?

    The distinction between the two is kind of confused, since Plague Marines used to have T5 and FNP, meaning they were at their best against low-Strength, D1 weapons, and got worse against higher Strength, higher Damage weapons that could blow chunks out of their rotting bodies. Now they have -1D instead of FNP, meaning they're still pretty tough against most D1 weapons due to those tending to have lower Strength, but they're actually at their best against D2 weapons, comparatively speaking.

    Meanwhile, back in 7e Rubric Marines had a 3+/4++ save, boosted to 3+/3++ if you used a psychic power on them. This meant powerful weapons just washed over them, and you needed loads of smaller shots to overwhelm their sorcerous defences. Total contrast to Plague Marines, despite both being slow, tough, elite bolter-boys. In 8e they swapped to 3+/5++, and got a bonus against D1 weapons... meaning you needed powerful weapons to destroy them, since they'd just ignore smaller shots. Which is just Plague Marines again, but from a different, worse angle.

    9e Plague Marines at least have the excuse of adapting their rules the meta and still conveying the basic notion of "very tough, you need bigger guns than usual". 8e-9e Rubric Marines just... don't seem to know what they're doing. They have invulnerable saves, so they're good against high-power weapons, except their defensive ability only works against low-power weapons. And they're still slow, just like Plague Marines, but while Plague Marines now get to double-tap bolters all the time, Rubric Marines just get to ignore Heavy penalties on their one Heavy gun.

    If you were directly translating their original respective roles, returning FNP to Plague Marines and giving -1D to Rubrics would make more sense. In the current game, a wound roll cap would work to convey the "high power weapons are useless" idea, but is functionally very similar to just making them T5, like Plague Marines.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/12 17:01:13


     
       
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    RevlidRas wrote:
    All Is Dust

    Replace it with 4+ invuln. Replace Disgustingly Resilient and T5 for Plague Marines with a couple more wounds. Rubrics are resistant to high AP weapons, Plague Marines are resistant to low damage weapons, the only special rule required is an invulnerable save. I don't know if it makes sense, but it makes the units mechanically different, which is at least interesting from a gameplay and list-building angle and it's not bloated.

    My only concern would be what the difference will be between Alpha Legion and TS Rubrics? Is being Troops with more powers to choose from enough to make up for the lack of a chapter tactic? As much as I thought +6" range was problematic, I think 5+ invulnerable save is going to be much worse. It's also going to make TS armies look pretty unthematic with lots of Rhinos despite TS being terrible mechanics in their previous fluff, but now I suppose they just rewind time on their tanks and give them sorcerous protection. Giving Cult Troops a special keyword to stop them from getting Chapter Tactics outside their designated legion would be an option, alternatively, cult troops could simply be entirely barred from detachments outside their own legion, forcing people to use a Patrol to get access to cult troops, I personally like this option very little.
       
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    Currently All is Dust needs no sprucing.

    Thousand sons are just as durable as Custodes against most armies.

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     Eihnlazer wrote:
    Thousand sons are just as durable as Custodes against most armies.
    Uh, no, that's not true. Not remotely. What?

    Custodes have T5, W3, and 2+/5++ (plus a 6+ FNP against MW). Rubrics have T4, W2, and 3+/5++, which grows to 2+/5++ against D1 weapons. At their absolute best, they're still a point of Toughness and a Wound off. It takes more than twice as many bolt rifle hits to kill a Custodes than it does to kill a Rubric, and four times as many heavy bolter hits.


    Against any D2 Marine-killing guns (plasma, heavy bolters, autocannons, whatever) Rubric Marines are just Marines with a 5+ invulnerable save. Against any D1 guns - which is most mainline guns, admittedly - they're Marines with +1Sv.

    Rubric Marines aren't even close to Custodes. Hell, they're not even as tough to Plague Marines, most of the time. The only place they have the advantage against Plague Marines is D1 AP0 weapons, which are looking rarer and rarer these days. Against AP-1 they draw even most of the time, and D2+ obviously blows them out of the water.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/13 00:02:44


     
       
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    I have already played games against them. Seeing it on the table with my own eyes was enough to say that yes, they are basically just as durable of an army.

    All you have to do as a t-sons player is put all your buffs on one squad of terminators and make it so that your opponent cant shoot anything except for them or your contemptors.


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     vict0988 wrote:
    RevlidRas wrote:
    All Is Dust

    Replace it with 4+ invuln. Replace Disgustingly Resilient and T5 for Plague Marines with a couple more wounds. Rubrics are resistant to high AP weapons, Plague Marines are resistant to low damage weapons, the only special rule required is an invulnerable save. I don't know if it makes sense, but it makes the units mechanically different, which is at least interesting from a gameplay and list-building angle and it's not bloated.

    My only concern would be what the difference will be between Alpha Legion and TS Rubrics? Is being Troops with more powers to choose from enough to make up for the lack of a chapter tactic? As much as I thought +6" range was problematic, I think 5+ invulnerable save is going to be much worse. It's also going to make TS armies look pretty unthematic with lots of Rhinos despite TS being terrible mechanics in their previous fluff, but now I suppose they just rewind time on their tanks and give them sorcerous protection. Giving Cult Troops a special keyword to stop them from getting Chapter Tactics outside their designated legion would be an option, alternatively, cult troops could simply be entirely barred from detachments outside their own legion, forcing people to use a Patrol to get access to cult troops, I personally like this option very little.
    The conceptual problem with Cult Marines has always been the same; Plague Marines use Death Guard-themed special guns, nowadays, but they could be found as elite, Nurgle-infested Astartes in any Legion or renegade Chapter. Berserkers could represent basically any elite Marine sufficiently devoted to Khorne, even if the chainaxe is a World Eaters signature. Noise Marines are a bit more directly tied to the Emperor's Children, but fundamentally, any elite Slaaneshi Marine is liable to pick up combat drugs and exotic sensory weaponry.

    Then you have Rubric Marines, who are indisputably 100% exclusive to the Thousand Sons, created by a single specific event in the past that only affected them and was enacted by their signature character, covered in heraldry specific to their Legion. If they were just Chaos Space Marines with magic boltguns and a sorcerer champion, and were called, I dunno, Arcane Marines or something, it'd be a different matter; Rubrics would be Arcane Marines + All Is Dust as the Thousand Sons "bonus". Instead, we're in a position where "Alpha Legion Rubric Marines" don't really make sense, as a concept, but need to be available or else Tzeentch is the only god without Cult Marines.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/13 02:00:12


     
       
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    That is a bit wonky. I think there was a brief line in the 6th(?) edition chaos codex that tried to justify it as some Thousand Sons sorcerer basically renting out his apprentice and some rubricae to another warlord as a form of mercenary work. But that always felt like a bit of a stretch. Or at least too specific to be a good excuse to be used in every CSM army that includes them.

    All Is Dust is a little weird in that what exactly it represents has kind of become unclear. Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't the fluff used to be that rubricae basically slowly reassembled themselves? Like, you'd blow off an arm, and it would turn to dust, and then that dust would float back into place and become an arm again? I could have sworn there was fluff saying that you really wanted to have big (read: anti-tank) guns around to deal with rubricae because small arms were so ineffective against them. Which in turn made me really annoyed with the 6th and 7th edition rules for them where they were just as susceptible to lasgun fire as a normal marine, but could tank lascannons more reliably thanks to their invul saves.

    So does All Is Dust mean rubricae are durable against little guns or big guns? Is it a dusty version of necron living metal, or is it a magic forcefield that makes lascannon teams sigh?


    ATTENTION
    . Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
     
       
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    Wyldhunt wrote:
    That is a bit wonky. I think there was a brief line in the 6th(?) edition chaos codex that tried to justify it as some Thousand Sons sorcerer basically renting out his apprentice and some rubricae to another warlord as a form of mercenary work. But that always felt like a bit of a stretch. Or at least too specific to be a good excuse to be used in every CSM army that includes them.

    All Is Dust is a little weird in that what exactly it represents has kind of become unclear. Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't the fluff used to be that rubricae basically slowly reassembled themselves? Like, you'd blow off an arm, and it would turn to dust, and then that dust would float back into place and become an arm again? I could have sworn there was fluff saying that you really wanted to have big (read: anti-tank) guns around to deal with rubricae because small arms were so ineffective against them. Which in turn made me really annoyed with the 6th and 7th edition rules for them where they were just as susceptible to lasgun fire as a normal marine, but could tank lascannons more reliably thanks to their invul saves.

    So does All Is Dust mean rubricae are durable against little guns or big guns? Is it a dusty version of necron living metal, or is it a magic forcefield that makes lascannon teams sigh?
    Rubric Marines have seldom been consistent.

    3e Plague Marines were Chaos Space Marines with +1 Toughness and True Grit (they got to use their bolter as a pistol for meatier defensive melee). 4-5e Plague Marines were Chaos Space Marines with +1 Toughness, Feel No Pain, and Blight Grenades (again, a bonus to defensive fighting in melee). That FNP is a fat jump. 6-7e Plague Marines were Chaos Space Marines with +1 Toughness, Plague Knives (again, a minor melee boost) and Blight Grenades. Pretty consistently Space Marines, but more durable, particularly against smaller guns due to the extra Toughness and Feel No Pain not helping against high-Strength attacks.

    3e Rubric Marines were Chaos Space Marines with +1 Wound and Slow and Purposeful (they moved slower, but always shot as though standing still - which was an even bigger thing back then). 4-5e Rubric Marines were Chaos Space Marines with a 4+ invulnerable save, Slow and Purposeful, and Inferno Bolts; much more potent at range, but psychic powers were trickier to use, so the principle held out. 6-7e Rubric Marines were the same, but could go up to 3++, and gained special gun options; again, more of a ranged boost.

    So Rubric Marines went from being extra tough against small guns (since they'd still get Instant Death'd by big ones and didn't have an Invulnerable Save for high AP) to being extra tough against big guns (since their 4+ invulnerable save negated AP), back to being extra tough against small guns in 8e-9e.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/15 11:55:35


     
       
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    Wyldhunt wrote:
    So does All Is Dust mean rubricae are durable against little guns or big guns? Is it a dusty version of necron living metal, or is it a magic forcefield that makes lascannon teams sigh?


    I think actually Nacron like full on re generation would be a more fun rule personally, not sure how it would work in terms of effectiveness to points but it would make them rather more unique.
       
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    moreorless wrote:
    Wyldhunt wrote:
    So does All Is Dust mean rubricae are durable against little guns or big guns? Is it a dusty version of necron living metal, or is it a magic forcefield that makes lascannon teams sigh?


    I think actually Nacron like full on re generation would be a more fun rule personally, not sure how it would work in terms of effectiveness to points but it would make them rather more unique.
    All Is Dust
  • When this unit fails a Morale test, no models flee and no Combat Attrition tests are taken for this unit.
  • When this unit passes a Morale test, roll one D6 for each model from this unit that has been destroyed this turn. On a 5+, that model is returned to its unit with its full wounds remaining.


  • In other words, it's concentrated firepower that takes down Rubric Marines. If you have a squad of 10 Rubric Marines, killing 1 in a turn means you killed 0.66, but killing 3 means you've killed 2.16, and killing 5 means you've "really" killed 4.16.

    This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/08/16 02:59:32


     
       
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    RevlidRas wrote:
    moreorless wrote:
    Wyldhunt wrote:
    So does All Is Dust mean rubricae are durable against little guns or big guns? Is it a dusty version of necron living metal, or is it a magic forcefield that makes lascannon teams sigh?


    I think actually Nacron like full on re generation would be a more fun rule personally, not sure how it would work in terms of effectiveness to points but it would make them rather more unique.
    All Is Dust
  • When this unit fails a Morale test, no models flee and no Combat Attrition tests are taken for this unit.
  • When this unit passes a Morale test, roll one D6 for each model from this unit that has been destroyed this turn. On a 5+, that model is returned to its unit with its full wounds remaining.


  • In other words, it's concentrated firepower that takes down Rubric Marines. If you have a squad of 10 Rubric Marines, killing 1 in a turn means you killed 0.66, but killing 3 means you've killed 2.16, and killing 5 means you've "really" killed 4.16.


    Indeed, something thats fundamentally different to Disgustingly Resilient in how it works rather than just boosting one defensive stat over another.
       
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    moreorless wrote:
    RevlidRas wrote:
    moreorless wrote:
    Wyldhunt wrote:
    So does All Is Dust mean rubricae are durable against little guns or big guns? Is it a dusty version of necron living metal, or is it a magic forcefield that makes lascannon teams sigh?


    I think actually Nacron like full on re generation would be a more fun rule personally, not sure how it would work in terms of effectiveness to points but it would make them rather more unique.
    All Is Dust
  • When this unit fails a Morale test, no models flee and no Combat Attrition tests are taken for this unit.
  • When this unit passes a Morale test, roll one D6 for each model from this unit that has been destroyed this turn. On a 5+, that model is returned to its unit with its full wounds remaining.


  • In other words, it's concentrated firepower that takes down Rubric Marines. If you have a squad of 10 Rubric Marines, killing 1 in a turn means you killed 0.66, but killing 3 means you've killed 2.16, and killing 5 means you've "really" killed 4.16.


    Indeed, something thats fundamentally different to Disgustingly Resilient in how it works rather than just boosting one defensive stat over another.

    Why is a unique ability more fun than something using core rules?
       
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    RevlidRas wrote:
    moreorless wrote:
    Wyldhunt wrote:
    So does All Is Dust mean rubricae are durable against little guns or big guns? Is it a dusty version of necron living metal, or is it a magic forcefield that makes lascannon teams sigh?


    I think actually Nacron like full on re generation would be a more fun rule personally, not sure how it would work in terms of effectiveness to points but it would make them rather more unique.
    All Is Dust
  • When this unit fails a Morale test, no models flee and no Combat Attrition tests are taken for this unit.
  • When this unit passes a Morale test, roll one D6 for each model from this unit that has been destroyed this turn. On a 5+, that model is returned to its unit with its full wounds remaining.


  • In other words, it's concentrated firepower that takes down Rubric Marines. If you have a squad of 10 Rubric Marines, killing 1 in a turn means you killed 0.66, but killing 3 means you've killed 2.16, and killing 5 means you've "really" killed 4.16.

    This is just 8th edition Reanimation Protocols. 8th edition Reanimation Protocols sucked.
       
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     vict0988 wrote:
    Why is a unique ability more fun than something using core rules?
    It's not inherently more fun, and if you can use core rules, you should. The main reasons not to use the core rules are a) if the core rules would be too strong/weak for what you have in mind, b) if the core rules can't produce the precise outcome you want.

    On Plague Marines and Terminators, for example, Disgustingly Resilient is almost identical to +1 Wound; it's worse against Damage 1 weapons for everyone, better against Damage 2 weapons for Terminators, and identical in every other respect. It has almost the same relationship with a 5+ Feel No Pain. The main reason to stick with Disgustingly Resilient in place of either of those is a) because you don't want Plague Marines to require 3 unsaved D1 wounds to take down, b) because you want Death Guard Daemon Engines to be exceptionally tough.

    The goal of All Is Dust is to make Rubric Marines tougher, and ideally would do so in a manner distinct to Plague Marines. The simplest form of All Is Dust would be a 4+ invulnerable save, which works fine, but does mean that any AP above -1 (or -2 for Terminators) is useless against Rubric Marines. If that's acceptable in terms of balance, and fits your goal in terms of what you want them to do and how you want their opponents to react (mostly just... by not bothering with AP, I guess?), it's absolutely fine.

    The quoted version of All Is Dust instead needs a more unique set of rules because of the behaviour it's meant to encourage by your opponent - namely, wiping out whole units of Rubric Marines before they can "reassemble" at the end of the round. The more the opponent can kill in each turn, the more likely the Rubrics will be to fail their Morale test and not reassemble - or simply be wiped out. The more you can protect your Rubrics and keep the enemy from concentrating their firepower, the more likely they are to stand back up again at the end of the turn. It also has the benefit of not rendering whole classes of weaponry pointless - the stuff that's good at killing Rubrics is still good at killing Rubrics, it just needs to be applied in specific ways.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 21:37:07


     
       
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    Rubric Marines are not Necrons reassembling themselves on the battlefield. Rubric Marines are Marines who's bodies has been turned into dust with their essence fused with their sealed power/terminator armor.

    The reason their 3.5 rules gave them a second wound (extremely rare back then) is because you have to smash, blast, or riddle their armor apart to stop them. You can't take them out with shot to the head or hearts. You need to degrade the armor to the point they fall apart or a big enough hole is put in them. Thus 2 Wounds or an Instant Death was needed to put one down.

    Now days, all power armor marines are 2 wounds, but Rubric Marines have a 5+ Invulnerable (in a TS detachment at least) along with All Is Dust giving them +1 Armor Save against D1 attacks. They are back at their 3.5 edition roots as they are most resistant to small arms fire, the exact opposite of Disgusting Resilient that does nothing against the same small arms. They still have some additional resistance to stronger attacks since AP -3 or better might as well be AP -2 thanks to the Invulnerable Save. This leaves low multi-damage (2, 3 , D3) moderate AP (-1 or -2) weapons as the best for taking down TS, the very weapons you don't want to be shooting at Plague Marines!

    While it may seem a bit lame that the best weapons for taking down Rubrics and Scarabs are the best weapons for taking down normal marines, those are also the very weapons that don't work well against a number of other armies. There are one of the reasons that Drukhari, Adepta Sororitas, and AdMech are taking the meta by storm and even Death Guard can do well. The meta weapons are bad against them. When the meta moves away from 2W marine killers, Thousand Sons will benefit the most.
       
    Made in dk
    Loyal Necron Lychguard






    RevlidRas wrote:
     vict0988 wrote:
    Why is a unique ability more fun than something using core rules?
    It's not inherently more fun, and if you can use core rules, you should. The main reasons not to use the core rules are a) if the core rules would be too strong/weak for what you have in mind, b) if the core rules can't produce the precise outcome you want.

    On Plague Marines and Terminators, for example, Disgustingly Resilient is almost identical to +1 Wound; it's worse against Damage 1 weapons for everyone, better against Damage 2 weapons for Terminators, and identical in every other respect. It has almost the same relationship with a 5+ Feel No Pain. The main reason to stick with Disgustingly Resilient in place of either of those is a) because you don't want Plague Marines to require 3 unsaved D1 wounds to take down, b) because you want Death Guard Daemon Engines to be exceptionally tough.

    The goal of All Is Dust is to make Rubric Marines tougher, and ideally would do so in a manner distinct to Plague Marines. The simplest form of All Is Dust would be a 4+ invulnerable save, which works fine, but does mean that any AP above -1 (or -2 for Terminators) is useless against Rubric Marines. If that's acceptable in terms of balance, and fits your goal in terms of what you want them to do and how you want their opponents to react (mostly just... by not bothering with AP, I guess?), it's absolutely fine.

    The quoted version of All Is Dust instead needs a more unique set of rules because of the behaviour it's meant to encourage by your opponent - namely, wiping out whole units of Rubric Marines before they can "reassemble" at the end of the round. The more the opponent can kill in each turn, the more likely the Rubrics will be to fail their Morale test and not reassemble - or simply be wiped out. The more you can protect your Rubrics and keep the enemy from concentrating their firepower, the more likely they are to stand back up again at the end of the turn. It also has the benefit of not rendering whole classes of weaponry pointless - the stuff that's good at killing Rubrics is still good at killing Rubrics, it just needs to be applied in specific ways.

    I guess I don't see why DG vehicles should be as tough as they are, a Crawler requires more plasma shots than a Land Raider and I think that's too much. 14W T8 3+/5++ would still be a great defensive profile. I also don't see why Death Guard should be weak to poison or lasguns and after those changes I think Rubrics just need a niche and that being a ranged AP unit that is good against other AP units seems fine and is a niche they filled in the past.

    Being resistant to a small amount of damage isn't really a niche and if you aren't killing the unit then how few you kill is close to irrelevant. The reason why it's important for them to have a niche is because of Berzerkers, Noise Marines and Plague Marines, these all have to join the same codex when GW gets off their butts and give CSM their second wound, aaaand now I'm angry at GW again.

    I do like that the RP suggestion is really weak, that means it won't take up too much of the Rubric power budget, that's what I wanted from Necron RP instead of the novel-length abomination that lets Necron Warriors sprint almost as fast as supersonic Guardsmen (another abomination).
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




     vict0988 wrote:

    Being resistant to a small amount of damage isn't really a niche and if you aren't killing the unit then how few you kill is close to irrelevant.
    It's not a niche, so much as a way to affect enemy behaviour and reward your behaviour.

    The "Resurrection" All Is Dust directly affects enemy behaviour, because it encourages the enemy to direct concentrated firepower at the Rubric unit, rather than wittling down your whole army, and rewards you for decisions that keep the enemy from focusing their fire on the Rubric unit, or that take advantage of them doing so.

    The current All Is Dust is a bit less behaviour-influencing, because it's rooted in Damage - a pre-set weapon characteristic, rather than a decision you make. That said, it does encourage the opponent to split their Tzaangor/Rubric fire appropriately, and encourage you to avoid D2+ weapons where possible.

    A 4+ invulnerable save All Is Dust is, to my mind, the least interesting, because it's rooted in AP - another pre-set weapon characteristic - and there's not really any decision for your opponent to make. AP-1 guns are still good. AP-2 or more guns aren't, and are also useless against Tzaangor and Cultists, who don't habe armour in the first place. There's not really any decision-space, here.

     vict0988 wrote:

    I do like that the RP suggestion is really weak, that means it won't take up too much of the Rubric power budget, that's what I wanted from Necron RP instead of the novel-length abomination that lets Necron Warriors sprint almost as fast as supersonic Guardsmen (another abomination).
    In terms of raw numbers, it's actually the same as a 5+ FNP unless you lose 3+ models in a turn - and it can be better against D3+ weapons, since it ignores overkill. As a general comparison, it's better than the +1 Save All Is Dust against D1, AP-2 or more (until you lose 3+ models) or D2+.

    But yeah, I have no idea why Resurrection Protocols is so overcomplicated.
       
     
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