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Made in ca
Drafted Man-at-Arms




Ultima Seg.

I have never liked the fact that the makers of the different legions made it so obvious who would turn Chaos from the start.

Even from the beggining Fulgrim was presented as a foppish dandy who excelled at everyting and was a perfectionist to the maximum, taking great pride in his aestitcs and maximising of every move.

And the butcher nail XII legion literarly deranged psychopathic killers who revelled in blood lust turned to Khorn. Who knew?

And the legion known for Psychic acrument went to the Magic chaos entity. Mind you to save his legion, but still ended up going to Tzeentch.

The legion who could endure everything, ended up enduring Nurgle's gifts. And many more examples.

It would have been cooler if for example Perturabo accepted Nurgle's gift, being too proud he rejected it only to join Chaos anyway. Any similar thoughts?

^^Now these are just generalities of each legion, I know it's not one sided as I presented. Some will say that the World Eaters enjoyed discipline and martial prowess and weren't just mindless killers, and EC were more hardcore then just enjoying pleasures.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





I think it's generally better for the face of a faction to exemplify the traits of that faction. I'd rather not have a Cawl situation where the most Tzeentch-marked character hates magic or whatever.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm not sure foreshadowing is the right term. The HH stories are prequels, and like prequels they are tied to fixed outcomes of their stories.

Its a common problem with prequels in my opinion where every little detail in the original seems to get referenced or explained, and minor details get blown up into things they were never intended to be. like Alec Guinness wearing robes in the desert in A New Hope because it is appropriate clothing in a desert environment and he is hiding out undercover; then suddenly his disguise is the traditional clothing of the Jedi, that just happens to suit a desert environment and he still wears it even though he is trying to keep a low profile.

The Primarchs and their stories are fleshed out after the legions have been established so the Primarchs end up exemplifying the traits we already associate with those legions from the start.

   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Firstly, as someone else mentioned, the HH is the "prequel" to 40k. Broadly speaking we know whats going to happen and who's going to fall. But when I say "broadly" I mean very very broadly. We only know that 9 Primarchs would join each side, which Traitor Legions would be marked by a God and some of the Second Founding Chapters who were founded post-Heresy. People say the Heresy should have stayed a mystery but IMO, if there's almost nothing written about something despite it being the catalyst event for the creation and decline of the post-Emperor Imperium, that's not mystery its just boring.

Secondly, as you have said you generalised a lot of your depictions of the Legions.
The EC strived for perfection and glory because they were a small Legion that served under the Emperor and Horus longer than their own Primarch. The Legion and Fulgrim were ridiculed by some of the other Primarchs as being too small and ineffective for conquest. Even long after this notion was shaken off, the slight remained a chip on the collective shoulder of the EC for a very long time but still they were considered one of the most loyal Legions and it was only the corrupting influence of the Laer that caused its downfall.
The DG might have been tough but they were also dour and humourless, nothing like the jovial scions of Nurgle.
Magnus and the Tsons would have remained a Loyal Legion had the Emperor not sent the Wolves to bring Magnus in and Horus not intervened to order Russ to kill Magnus.
There is really no accounting for the World Eaters though. Killing is killing whether you fight for one tyrant or another.
   
Made in gb
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Port Carmine

 Gert wrote:

There is really no accounting for the World Eaters though. Killing is killing whether you fight for one tyrant or another.


I may be recalling incorrectly, but I think the War Hounds were originally quite honourable, and although quite close-combat focussed saw that as a means to an end rather than just brutal.

There may be an (un?) intentional nod to the Flanderisation of Khorne in the change from the War Hounds to the World Eaters.

VAIROSEAN LIVES! 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The War Hounds were violent yes. Their most notorious engagement was the quelling of a rebellion where the Emperor personally ordered the Legion to visit His wrath upon the rebels. The operation began at 0300 and ended at 0808, at which point the the Hounds were asked how many prisoners were taken. The commander said he had not been ordered to take prisoners and when Army Regiments arrived, there was no sign of any living population and it was clear there were huge casualties on both sides. Still, they had martial pride and traditions that were eradicated upon Angrons takeover.
The name change was to honour Angron's gladiator friends. Not that Angron cared.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 10:31:08


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah it was never going to be a surprise who turned traitor because we knew that before the stories were written. So they could retrospectively create the background that explained why the could be turned.

Although there was no dark reason alpharius would turn, or Horus.

And I think if you didn’t know fulgrim turned before you read his background you wouldn’t pick him as a traitor.

But all the loyalist primarchs have pretty much boy scout backgrounds, even corax, who’s background was a bit dark, was a rebel leader like Luke skywalker.

But I agree with your premise generally
   
Made in gb
Bryan Ansell





Birmingham, UK

The Warhounds could be written as one of the more tragic tales of corruption.

A martial legion and very proud but certainly questionable. Lacking their fathers presence until Angron is found and taken against his will to join his 'Sons'.

Unwanted sons who in trying to please and be like their 'father' submit themselves to horrific mutilations which dooms them all...daddy still hates them.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I have the same criticism in that the primarchs were made too iconic for the roles they would eventually assume and more nuance would have been appreciated.

That said, I am somewhat forgiving here due to the nature of the setting. The primarchs were snatched through the warp by the dark gods right before they began their stories. But time is not linear in the Warp. Neither is causality. The very fact that they would become traitors in the future could very much echo backwards in time and shape who they were before. The dark gods very likely asserted influence when they abducted the primarchs. There was an in-universe theory that if the Imperium lost the HH Chaos would have ended up becoming starved; what if the dark gods specifically avoided trying to corrupt the primarchs that would later remain loyal, stacking the odds to create the outcome they desired?

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Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I have the same criticism in that the primarchs were made too iconic for the roles they would eventually assume and more nuance would have been appreciated.

That said, I am somewhat forgiving here due to the nature of the setting. The primarchs were snatched through the warp by the dark gods right before they began their stories. But time is not linear in the Warp. Neither is causality. The very fact that they would become traitors in the future could very much echo backwards in time and shape who they were before. The dark gods very likely asserted influence when they abducted the primarchs. There was an in-universe theory that if the Imperium lost the HH Chaos would have ended up becoming starved; what if the dark gods specifically avoided trying to corrupt the primarchs that would later remain loyal, stacking the odds to create the outcome they desired?


it';d not suprise me, IIRC Horus is called "the sacrifical king" by chaos. they NEVER intended him to win

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





I must say I only read one HH book, Flight of the Eisenstein. As a Chaos Fan I was pretty annoyed though that all the cool guys stayed loyal and every one who turned Chaos was a dick right from the start. *spoiler alert * that Grulgor guy even went full on Cartoon villain and still talked crap despite having become a Plague Marine.

I thought it was pretty bad storytelling with very little ambiguity. I hope other HH novels show more grey instead of just Black and white.
   
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

 Sylhfer wrote:
The legion who could endure everything, ended up enduring Nurgle's gifts. And many more examples.

It would have been cooler if for example Perturabo accepted Nurgle's gift, being too proud he rejected it only to join Chaos anyway. Any similar thoughts?
I'm not sure what you mean about Perturabo accepting Nurgle's gift and then rejecting (Nurgle's gift?), it's kind of a one way street when you become infected by nurgle.

Nurgle did try to get Perturabo though, in what I think is one of the more badass Perturabo moments, he did indeed refuse. An emissary of nurgle has come to offer Perturabo Nurgle's patronage:

Slaves to Darkness wrote:‘How were you sent?’ said Perturabo to Khalek. ‘We are the storm, its sevenfold winds are our sire, and we its children. Where it carries us, we go. We are its voice. It took us from the graveyard of ships in its heart, took us and gave us life again, and so we come to speak for it.’ ‘The warp…’ breathed Volk. ‘It is… in them.’ ‘The storm is within all,’ said Khalek. ‘What did the storm send you to say?’ asked Perturabo. ‘It sent us to make you an offer. There is a throne for you, Lord of Iron,’ said Khalek, and he shivered as he spoke. Volk noticed a flash of red on the paper-dry lips. ‘A throne that weeps with the tears of your enemies. And with the throne, a crown that once on your brow will make the iron of your blood eternal. You are rotting, Lord of Iron. You layer metal on your skin and bind the killing edges closer to you, because they make you feel the strength that is bleeding out of you. You feel this truth. You know it in the fever-tremble of your skin.’ Khalek’s body was moving, his shoulders heaving, as though the muscles inside his armour were writhing even as his voice held steady. ‘The Sixfold Prince has bitten deep and feasted long. The wound festers within your soul. You are dying. Your iron is rust.’ Perturabo did not move, but Volk thought that the shadows deepened in the hollows of his face. Khalek’s convulsions ceased. His chin was wet with blood. ‘You resist,’ said Khalek. ‘You fight, but that only steals more from you. You seek the Son of Blood, the Dog of Bones snapping in its brass collar. Father Storm sees this – it sees and knows that if you find the Hound of Red Sands, you will die. You are weak, and he is beyond your weakness. He will not yield. He will not obey. He will test your metal, and it will be wanting. The Father sees, the Father knows.’ Khalek took a rasping breath and bowed his head. ‘You can rise, lord. You can be eternal, unbreaking, unbreakable.’ ‘Is that the extent of what you have come to say?’ asked Perturabo. Khalek raised and dipped his head. ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘Good,’ said Perturabo. The air screamed. Beams of incandescent energy and streams of rounds burned through the space between Perturabo and Khalek. The warrior vanished. Armour plating, flesh and metal tore into shreds and vapour.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/19 23:47:20


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I wholeheartedly agree. It was lazy in most cases. With that said, there are some jewels in there. I personally found Angron's back story to be one of the best. He was Spartacus turned up to 11 (which doesn't sound particularly inspired at first). But, his story is so much deeper than it might appear, filled with lots of missed opportunities. Of all the fallen patriarchs, his fall to chaos was perhaps the most attributable to the emperor's hubris and lack of empathy.

From the start, he viewed Angron as a failure, a broken tool of no value to him, and thus dismissed without a 2nd thought. He "failed" because he failed to stop the slave masters from implanting the butcher's nails (when he was only a child). He "failed" because he lived on a slave/prison/gladiatorial world and did not have the tools to fight back against off-world slave owners. Had the emperor even attempted to use his vast scientific ability and psychic powers to attempt to heal his mind and remove the butcher's nails, Angron's fall might have been avoided. It is fairly clear that he was discarded by the emperor, so why would any sane person stay "loyal" to someone who was ready to let him suffer/die upon first glance?

More importantly, Angron the memory of his followers and adopted kinsmen dying in their final battle - without him, their protector and hero - caused him such suffering that he became apathetic toward the Imperium. Why wouldn't he? The only people that ever supported him, showed him compassion died without him. The emperor "saved" him by removing him from the final battle, but then immediately discarded him and ignored him. How was the emperor, the lords of terra, the mechanicum any better than the slave masters that tortured him and his followers?

TLDR Angron's backstory was surprisingly good. It's his depiction in other books (where he isn't the main character) that present him as one-dimensional.

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Made in gb
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Perturabo is similarly a tragic character.

We see examples of him being capable of so much more than siegecraft, and excelling at those endeavours.

Yet. He and his Legion were left to feel distinctly second fiddle to his Brothers, and Dorn in particular.

The Iron Warriors did the dirty work of sieges - the hard work, the necessary work. Only for the glory to go to literally any other Legion.

Where the Imperial Fists were tasked with building glorious defences, the Iron Warriors were left in the trenches and the mud.

It’s a story I can vaguely relate to. See, at my work I was tasked with finding a way to support my pod - to come up with a project which could make their lives easier, and their work more efficient.

And I did so. I won’t bore you with the details, but suffice to say what I did worked. As did the projects of my other team mates. By our combined endeavours, our Pod became one of the most productive.

What we started was eventually adopted on a wider scale - albeit better and more streamlined. But we were shut out of that spit and polishing, because our manager at the time was a Word Not Allowed On Dakka, and literally gave away all our notes and efforts, so he could chase a promotion.

Weeks if not months of trial, error and eventually successful working prototype processes just taken away from us, and given to others who used them to get promotions.

Suffice to say we were left demoralised, and pretty flipping angry. All the effort, none of the glory nor reward, all because of one complete git of a manager.

Granted I didn’t turn to Chaos as a result, so my analogy is shonky. But I can still appreciate Perturabo’s decision.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Sylhfer wrote:
I have never liked the fact that the makers of the different legions made it so obvious who would turn Chaos from the start.

Even from the beggining Fulgrim was presented as a foppish dandy who excelled at everyting and was a perfectionist to the maximum, taking great pride in his aestitcs and maximising of every move.

And the butcher nail XII legion literarly deranged psychopathic killers who revelled in blood lust turned to Khorn. Who knew?

And the legion known for Psychic acrument went to the Magic chaos entity. Mind you to save his legion, but still ended up going to Tzeentch.

The legion who could endure everything, ended up enduring Nurgle's gifts. And many more examples.

It would have been cooler if for example Perturabo accepted Nurgle's gift, being too proud he rejected it only to join Chaos anyway. Any similar thoughts?

^^Now these are just generalities of each legion, I know it's not one sided as I presented. Some will say that the World Eaters enjoyed discipline and martial prowess and weren't just mindless killers, and EC were more hardcore then just enjoying pleasures.


Yeah it's almost like the Horus Heresy was originally intended by the writers to be more of an indicator of a setting that is in itself an unreliable narrator by drawing parallels to the ancient simplistic stories of angels and demons saints and sinners heroes and villains to distinguish Warhammer 40,000 from other science fiction universes like Star Trek where history is an unbroken, rationally understood chain stretching back from the characters in the setting to the modern day.

It's almost like 40k often does this kind of thing with its jokes in the same way that a setting like Judge Dredd does, indicating various history-warping apocalypses and totalitarian regimes by putting something in front of the reader that either they know isn't right (for example: "the tech-priests data files indicate that "Monkeys" were ancient insectoid beings possibly bred for combat with venomous tails and leathery wings") or that they can generally FEEL are too simplistic to be wholly true ("the leader of the blood angels chapter of space marines was a man named Angelus Blooderton who had big giant wings and a super awesome flaming sword")

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

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Made in fr
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Watch Fortress Excalibris

I think the traitor primarchs are generally better-written and far more compelling characters than the loyalists. The traitors mostly turned against the Emperor for sensible, relatable, human reasons. Most of us would probably have made the same choices in the same circumstances. By contrast, the loyalist primarchs mostly come across as either wilfully blind authoritarian-follower types or as philosophical zombies who casually shrug off all their supposed principles because the plot requires them to stay on what should be (to them) obviously the 'wrong' side.

A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





Northumberland

 Duskweaver wrote:
I think the traitor primarchs are generally better-written and far more compelling characters than the loyalists. The traitors mostly turned against the Emperor for sensible, relatable, human reasons. Most of us would probably have made the same choices in the same circumstances. By contrast, the loyalist primarchs mostly come across as either wilfully blind authoritarian-follower types or as philosophical zombies who casually shrug off all their supposed principles because the plot requires them to stay on what should be (to them) obviously the 'wrong' side.



Right but that's the only conclusion every author can make. This is a thing that annoys me about all the reddit memelord types (magnus did nothing wrong etc etc). I don't think any of those people understand how literature works. If you're making a prequel to extremely well established lore where the bad guys are super bad you have to try and create a narrative from somewhere. In order to make the stories and characters slightly enjoyable you have to make the villains human. That is the only thing that can make them compelling.

That's why so many are still noble or have been tricked by someone else. Of course there's going to be fairly obvious clichés and tropes because we already know the end result. There's not a surprise twist at the end here. The work they have done to create different loyalists from the traitor legions is at least interesting if nothing else. If the super duper baddies are bad from the start what's the point of even reading the books.

A lot of people complain about the Horus Heresy series but from a writers perspective there isn't a lot to go on. The whole premise of the 40k backstory is just a biblical analogy so you're having to work with the "angels and demons". But it's not just good versus evil it's also Loyalists versus Traitors. Loyal to what? The Emperor and his vision?

The reason the traitors are better written is because the authors are trying much harder to present them as better characters within the novels. The big question of the heresy is "Why did these angels fall from grace?" That's a much better playground to create in.

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Loyal Necron Lychguard





 Duskweaver wrote:
I think the traitor primarchs are generally better-written and far more compelling characters than the loyalists. The traitors mostly turned against the Emperor for sensible, relatable, human reasons. Most of us would probably have made the same choices in the same circumstances. By contrast, the loyalist primarchs mostly come across as either wilfully blind authoritarian-follower types or as philosophical zombies who casually shrug off all their supposed principles because the plot requires them to stay on what should be (to them) obviously the 'wrong' side.

The loyalist primarchs come across like that because... that's what they are, really. They have to be to follow the Emperor's vision. The daemon primarchs didn't undergo a fall from grace, their shift on the alignment chart was horizontal.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Keep in mind that the bare-bones Heresy story came first (with Horus the only named character) in RoC:Slaves to Darkness, even Sanguinius and Dorn hadn't been invented yet. The concept of 'primarch' didn't even exist at that point- Horus is simply a general.

Despite the Emperor's Children and World Eaters being introduced in StD, Angron and Fulgrim aren't named. Or even implied. Even when the second RoC book came out and fleshed things out some, at least half of the primarchs still don't exist.

The HH novels are looking back over years of background work and trying to slot an absolute mess into an overly simplified A to B story (that still a mess, mostly because they let some authors wander off on extreme tangents and dead ends).

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
 
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