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Made in gb
Snord





Barovia

So I finally finished the last of my Berzerkers and treated them to a coat of Munitorum Varnish this morning. Compared to my previous attempts they are now lovely and frosty:







I have two questions for the denizens of Dakka:

Can this be fixed and how?

Whats the best varnishing solution to avoid this happening again?

Thanks in advance.

Is no fun, is no Blinsky! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wishing I was back at the South Atlantic, closer to ice than the sun

A colleague had this happen and he noticed if the figure got wet the "frost" disappeared. This was the night before a competition. So he got red ink, washed them all, the white disappeared. The next morning when the ink had dried he had a lovely army of khorne berserker all a lovely shade of pink.

Moral of the story, no I don't think it can be fixed. My suggestion, get a large tub of snow flock, and redo the bases to snow so that they look as if they are covered in frost while fighting on a cold planet.

Cheers

Andrew

I don't care what the flag says, I'm SCOTTISH!!!

Best definition of the word Battleship?
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Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







If you apply a gloss coat over the top of the frost it can help a lot. You can then put another coat of matte coats over the top to remove the shine.

The only guaranteed way to stop it in the future is to use brush on or airbrushed varnishes.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

You could try white spirit/paint thinner and a soft bristled brush. If the acrylic paint is cured it should be fine. I've done this before, but it was immediately after the frosting occured so results may vary.

This should remove most of it, a few touch ups here and there may be required.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





The best luck I've had is just to hit it was a gloss varnish or satin varnish that is more on the glossy side.

The frosting is matting agent being too heavy or too prominent, if you spray it with a gloss it'll seal it over.

Try spraying very light coats of gloss varnish and wait for it to dry between coats rather than drenching it so you can see if it's working or not.

To avoid frosting in the future, make sure the can is well mixed before spraying, keep shaking it for a good couple of minutes, follow the directions for the correct spraying distance, don't apply too much in one go, follow the old trick of not starting or stopping your spraying while pointed at the model (start spraying pointing to one side of the model, sweep all the way across, then stop spraying when you're no longer pointing at the model), also avoid doing it on humid days and excessively hot days.

The issue is the matting agent, so for the most part gloss varnishes can be applied more haphazardly and still give good results.

Also sometimes you just get a crap can that likes to frost. I normally like Testors Dullcote but one time I got a really finicky can of it that liked to frost things up. Since then I always test a can on something I don't care about first.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
You could try white spirit/paint thinner and a soft bristled brush. If the acrylic paint is cured it should be fine. I've done this before, but it was immediately after the frosting occured so results may vary.

This should remove most of it, a few touch ups here and there may be required.


I've had mixed (mostly not good) results trying to remove frosting, much better luck just covering it with another varnish.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/21 14:55:29


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





My guess would be the can was cold when you sprayed or it wasn’t shaken up enough.

However I have never used this varnish so it is a guess
   
Made in gb
Snord





Barovia

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions guys.

I think I'll try the gloss varnish option as that seems less fraught with danger. I'll need to buy some non-rattle can matt varnish and follow up with that through the airbrush.

Can was sitting in hot water (maybe too hot) then shaken like hell before spraying. Distance was within spec and I'm quite used to starting/ending the spray not on the model. Otherwise, may have been humidity as I did feel slightly sweaty by the time I finished (only 15C), but at the time I put that down to maybe being a bit too active after some surgery a few days ago.

Going forward I think I'll use the airbrush for varnishing. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with the airbrush so usually prefer to use rattle cans. Time to man up maybe.

@AllSeeingSkink - thanks for all the additional information, that has really helped my understanding of the issues.

Is no fun, is no Blinsky! 
   
Made in gb
Thane of Dol Guldur





Bodt

Windsor and Newton matte varnish is great. Brush on or airbrush.

Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children

Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Relative humidity also has an impact, high humidity at the time of spraying can cause frosting.

Yes, gloss varnish is the easy way to get rid of the frosting, and then re-apply matt to kill the shine once the gloss has cured. Just make sure you either brush on the varnish, or wait for a dryer day to spray.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in gb
Snord





Barovia

Thanks for the suggestions, I like Winsor & Newton products in general so will go with that. It will also probably be comparatively cheaper than going with "hobby" varnish.


Is no fun, is no Blinsky! 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






There is actually two entirely different things which are both generally referred to as “frosting” and these occur in one of two ways.

Cloudiness – After the varnish dries it takes on a cloudy or milky appearance. This is an adhesion problem. When the varnish does not properly cling to the model surface.

Frost – After the varnish dries it looks like it was just removed from a deep freeze. This is a surface issue where thousands of microscopic pits develop and refract light in all directions. This could be due to the surface the varnish was applied to or an uneven coat.

To tell which is the case; take a clean brush with some clean water and go over the whole model. If the cloudiness does NOT go away than you have an adhesion issue. If the frosty look DOES disappear than it’s a surface issue. The water fills all of the microscopic pits to create a smooth surface that light can bounce off of in a single direction.

If you have an adhesion issue than I’m sorry to say, it’s time to get the Simple Green and start over. (Some have had success using rubbing alcohol to remove the cloudiness, but I strongly discourage this unless you have nothing to lose. The alcohol can make it worse. The alcohol can partially dissolve the varnish creating both an adhesion issue and a surface issue.) However, if it’s a surface issue you’re not entirely out of luck. To try and correct the surface issue you need to fill in all of those tiny pits. If the frosting isn’t too bad, you can varnish the model again or you can apply a gloss varnish and then reapply a matte medium.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 oni wrote:
There is actually two entirely different things which are both generally referred to as “frosting” and these occur in one of two ways.

Cloudiness – After the varnish dries it takes on a cloudy or milky appearance. This is an adhesion problem. When the varnish does not properly cling to the model surface.

Frost – After the varnish dries it looks like it was just removed from a deep freeze. This is a surface issue where thousands of microscopic pits develop and refract light in all directions. This could be due to the surface the varnish was applied to or an uneven coat.

To tell which is the case; take a clean brush with some clean water and go over the whole model. If the cloudiness does NOT go away than you have an adhesion issue. If the frosty look DOES disappear than it’s a surface issue. The water fills all of the microscopic pits to create a smooth surface that light can bounce off of in a single direction.

If you have an adhesion issue than I’m sorry to say, it’s time to get the Simple Green and start over. (Some have had success using rubbing alcohol to remove the cloudiness, but I strongly discourage this unless you have nothing to lose. The alcohol can make it worse. The alcohol can partially dissolve the varnish creating both an adhesion issue and a surface issue.) However, if it’s a surface issue you’re not entirely out of luck. To try and correct the surface issue you need to fill in all of those tiny pits. If the frosting isn’t too bad, you can varnish the model again or you can apply a gloss varnish and then reapply a matte medium.


I'm not going to disagree with you on the possibility of cloudiness with varnishes, it's something I've experienced when trying to paint high-shine low-surface-energy surfaces at work, but I've never seen clouding on a miniature, and even if you did have clouding, wouldn't you expect it to be localised (maybe from a finger print or some such) rather than over the entire model like this?

Maybe if you used incompatible paints it might happen, but I use a pretty broad range or paints (enamels, acrylics, lacquers, alcohol acrylics, oils) and I don't recall seeing clouding on any miniatures I've painted. Crazing, yes, clouding, nup.

Either way, I'd be curious to hear an update from the OP to see how they went with it. It's always good to have a repository of knowledge on what worked and what didn't.
   
Made in gb
Snord





Barovia

I've given them a couple of light coats of gloss varnish today which seems to have fixed the frosting and they are all lovely and shiny.

Going to give them a day or two to cure completely then hit them with varnish through the airbrush. May go with satin rather than matt to bring out the colour more.

Will update with pics once complete, but it's looking good so far...

Is no fun, is no Blinsky! 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Glad to hear it. Always sad when something that has had care and effort expended goes awry at the last stage.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Snord





Barovia

Finally broke out the airbrush and re-varnished them. Tried satin first but it was way too shiny so ended up going with matt (Winsor & Newton).

Turned out much more matt than the rest of my World Eaters previously sprayed with Munitorum Varnish (guess that is a semi satin) but they are close enough to fit in. There are a couple of very small areas where there is still a little frosting, but I'm probably the only one who would spot it. Pics not great, probably easier to see in the last shot from above:







Overall, the gloss varnish was a great save - thanks Dakka!

I hope this thread helps others with their frosting problems.


Is no fun, is no Blinsky! 
   
Made in es
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Much improved. I have used a mix of both methods with light application of spirits or alcohol then gloss. Never perfect but … better. Your results look great considering where these started… FROSTY indeed! Good job!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/30 08:37:48


   
 
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