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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Mindstealer Sphiranx (Fast Attack, Power Rating 4)
A vicious species native to the Sorcerer's Planet, the Mindstealer Sphiranx is as cruel and proud as any Terran feline, and armed with a hypnotic gaze that can dominate weaker minds. Often employed by the masters of the Thousand Sons as a final, deadly test for apprentice magi, the Sphiranx make their lairs in ruins, vaults, and other places of arcane energy, and delight in riddles and illusory torments. More powerful Sorcerers may strike a bargain with one of the Sphiranx, binding it to prey on their foes as a prowling assassin or psychic saboteur.
1 Mindstealer Sphiranx: M 10”; WS 3+; BS -; S 6; T 5; W 6; A 5; Ld 8; Sv 5+
A Mindstealer Sphiranx is equipped with: flesh-shredding claws.

Wargear
  • Flesh-shredding claws: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength User; AP -2; Damage 1; Abilities: -.

  • Abilities
  • Living Mirage: This model has a 4+ invulnerable save.
  • Telepathic Dread (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 6” of this model, subtract 2 from the Leadership characteristic of models in that unit, and each time a Psychic test or Deny the Witch test is taken for that unit, roll one additional D6 and discard the highest dice result.
  • Transfixing Gaze: In your Psychic phase, select one enemy unit that is within 12” of and visible to this model.
  • -- Until the start of your next Psychic phase, that unit cannot fire Overwatch or Set to Defend, and cannot be selected to fight in the Fight phase until all eligible units from your army have done so.
  • -- Roll 2D6: if the result is equal to or greater than the highest Leadership characteristic of models in that unit, until the start of your next Psychic phase, that enemy unit loses the Objective Secured ability and cannot perform actions (if it is currently performing an action, it immediately fails).

  • Keywords
  • Faction: CHAOS, TZEENTCH, THOUSAND SONS
  • Keywords: MONSTER, MINDSTEALER SPHIRANX

  • Points Costs
  • Mindstealer Sphiranx: 75 points

  • Visions of Madness (2 CP)
    Thousand Sons – Epic Deed Stratagem
    The Sphiranx delight in invading the minds of others, locking them into a psychic prison populated by their deepest fears and most awful secrets.
    Use this Stratagem in your Psychic phase. Select one MINDSTEALER SPHIRANX model in your army and one enemy unit within 6" of that model. Until the start of your next Psychic phase, that enemy unit is not affected by the aura abilities of other enemy units.


    Spoiler:
    Mindstealer Sphiranx (Fast Attack, Power Rating 4)
    A vicious species of alien life native to the Sorcerer's Planet, the Mindstealer Sphiranx is equal parts daemon and feline, and as cruel and proud as both breeds combined. Often employed by the masters of the Thousand Sons as a final, deadly test for apprentice magi, the Sphiranx make their lairs in ruins, vaults, and other places of arcane energy, and delight in riddles and illusory torments. More powerful Sorcerers may strike a bargain with one of the Sphiranx, binding it to prey on their foes as a prowling assassin or psychic saboteur.
    1 Mindstealer Sphiranx: M 10”; WS 3+; BS 2+; S 6; T 5; W 6; A 4; Ld 8; Sv 5+
    A Mindstealer Sphiranx is equipped with: flesh-shredding claws; thought-shredding gaze.

    Wargear
  • Thought-shredding gaze: Range 12"; Type Assault D3; Strength 8; AP -2; Damage 1; Abilities: Each time an attack is made with this weapon, use the target's Leadership characteristic instead of its Toughness characteristic to determine the wound roll. If a hit is scored with this weapon, until the start of your next Shooting phase the target cannot fire Overwatch or Set to Defend, and cannot be selected to fight until all eligible units from your army have done so.
  • Flesh-shredding claws: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength User; AP -2; Damage 1; Abilities: -.

  • Abilities
  • Living Mirage: This model has a 4+ invulnerable save.
  • Dominate Mind: In your Psychic phase, select one enemy unit that is within 12” of and visible to this model and roll 3D6: if the result is greater than the enemy unit’s Leadership characteristic, until the start of your next Psychic phase, that enemy unit cannot perform actions (if that unit is currently performing an action, it immediately fails), and it loses the Objective Secured ability.
  • Telepathic Dread (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 6" of this model, each time a Morale test, Psychic test or Deny the Witch test is taken for that unit, roll one additional D6 and discard one of the dice.

  • Keywords
  • Faction: CHAOS, TZEENTCH, THOUSAND SONS
  • Keywords: MONSTER, MINDSTEALER SPHIRANX

  • Points Costs
  • Mindstealer Sphiranx: 85 points

  • Visions of Madness (1 CP)
    Thousand Sons – Epic Deed Stratagem
    The Sphiranx delight in invading the minds of others, driving prey to madness with a hypnotic glance that reveals their deepest fears and most awful secrets.
    Use this Stratagem in your Psychic phase, when a THOUSAND SONS model from your army destroys a model in an enemy unit that is within 9" of a friendly MINDSTEALER SPHIRANX. Until the end of the turn, subtract 1 from Combat Attrition tests taken for that enemy unit, and each model in that unit that is destroyed in the Psychic phase counts as two models in the Morale phase.


    Spoiler:
    Mindstealer Sphiranx (Fast Attack, Power Rating 4)
    A vicious species of alien life native to the Sorcerer's Planet, the Mindstealer Sphiranx is equal parts daemon and feline, and as cruel and proud as both breeds combined. Often employed by the masters of the Thousand Sons as a final, deadly test for apprentice magi, the Sphiranx make their lairs in ruins, vaults, and other places of arcane energy, and delight in riddles and illusory torments. More powerful Sorcerers may strike a bargain with one of the Sphiranx, binding it to prey on their foes as a prowling assassin or psychic saboteur.
    1 Mindstealer Sphiranx: M 10”; WS 3+; BS -; S 6; T 5; W 7; A 5; Ld 8; Sv 5+
    A Mindstealer Sphiranx is equipped with: flesh-shredding claws.

    Wargear
  • Flesh-shredding claws: Range Melee; Type Melee; Strength User; AP -2; Damage 2; Abilities: -.

  • Abilities
  • Living Mirage: This model has a 4+ invulnerable save. Each time this model declares a charge, none of the targets of that charge can fire Overwatch or Set to Defend.
  • Hypnotic Gaze: At the start of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy unit within 3" of this model. That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible THOUSAND SONS units from your army have done so.
  • Telepathic Dread (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 9" of this model, each time a Morale test, Psychic test or Deny the Witch test is taken for that unit, roll one additional D6 and discard one of the dice.

  • Keywords
  • Faction: CHAOS, TZEENTCH, THOUSAND SONS
  • Keywords: MONSTER, MINDSTEALER SPHIRANX

  • Points Costs
  • Mindstealer Sphiranx: 75 points

  • Dominate Mind (2 CP)
    Thousand Sons – Epic Deed Stratagem
    The Sphiranx delight in invading the minds of others, driving prey to madness with a hypnotic glance that reveals their deepest fears and most awful secrets.
    Use this Stratagem in your Psychic phase. Select one MINDSTEALER SPHIRANX unit in your army. Roll 3D6 for each enemy unit within 9” of and visible to that MINDSTEALER SPHIRANX; if the result is greater than that enemy unit’s Leadership characteristic, until the start of your next Psychic phase, that enemy unit cannot perform actions (if that unit is currently performing an action, it immediately fails), and it loses the Objective Secured ability.

    This message was edited 30 times. Last update was at 2021/09/21 12:22:27


     
       
    Made in ca
    Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





    The Frozen North

    This is far too complex and meandering. Boil it down to a few key abilities and focus on them. Similarly, I don't think its ability should be tied to a stratagem.

    I would suggest that you nominate a unit within 12" and roll 2d6. If you exceed the highest Leadership characteristic the unit loses Objective Secured and cannot Set to Defend or Overwatch. I would also suggest tweaking its aura to be -1 to Leadership, Combat Attrition rolls, and Psychic Tests.

    A minor note, but its ability should probably not be called Daemonic if it isn't a daemon. I think the invulnerable save could be rolled into its Living Illusion ability.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/27 15:52:10


    Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

    Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
     
       
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    Dakka Veteran




     MinMax wrote:
    This is far too complex and meandering. Boil it down to a few key abilities and focus on them.
    Yeah, I absolutely agree. This is a consequence of me being unable to settle on one specific use for its broad "mind control" powers, trying to do a weird Mutalith Vortex Beast thing to cover them all, and just getting lost in the weeds. I've replaced that Stratagem entirely with a much more simple one; pick a unit within 6", and it loses ObSec. In addition, deaths from psychic powers hurt its Morale twice as much, and if it fails a Morale test, it fails whatever action they're trying.

    Sticking with a 1CP Stratagem for now, rather than making it an inbuilt ability. If it was an inbuilt ability, I'd feel like it needed a "roll 2D6 over [characteristic]" qualifier, which would make it much less reliable – especially since unlike Drukhari, Reivers, or Chaos Space Marines, the Thousand Sons faction has relatively few ways to reduce Leadership characteristics.

    Drukhari who roll 2D6 against Leadership can score -2 from a VEHICLE with Grisly Trophies and -1 for DARK CREED units. Space Marines doing the same can score -2 from Reivers, -1 from a Fear Made Manifest WARLORD, -1 from Fearsome Aspect units (if they took that for some reason), -1 from various Psychic powers, and -1 from different Stratagems and Relics for Raven Guard, White Scars, Salamanders, or Dark Angels. Chaos Space Marines can score -1 from Raptors, -1 from Spawn, -1 from Icon of Despair (until that gets changed to match Death Guard, anyway), -1 from a few Relics, and up to -3 from NIGHT LORDS units.

    Meanwhile, Thousand Sons have... -1 from Chaos Spawn and -1 from one CULT OF CHANGE psychic power. It would make a 2D6 Leadership roll so much less reliable.

     MinMax wrote:
    I would also suggest tweaking its aura to be -1 to Leadership, Combat Leadershi rolls, and Psychic Tests.
    Mathematically, there is almost no difference between "treat 6s and as 1s" and "subtract 1". Subtracting 1 is actually more powerful, on average, because it takes you from 1-6 (average 3.5) to 0-5 (average 2.5), while the 6-to-1-swap takes you to 1-5 (average 2.66). Similarly, 2D6 goes from 2-12 (average 7) to 1-11 (average 6), while the 6-to-1-swap takes you to 2-10 (average 6.16).

    There are two reasons I went with this slightly more complex/unusual effect. The first is Perils; -1 to Psychic tests does nothing to Perils, while converting 6s to 1s doubles the odds of Perils from 5.5% to 11%. The second, more important reason is Shield of Faith, which currently gives Sororitas a 1-in-6 (or 1-in-3, with the right Sacred Rite) chance to shut down any psychic power they want, no matter how high the Psychic test, for free, once per unit, with a range of 24". This is completely insane nonsense-tech that shouldn't exist, but unfortunately it does – so the Sphiranx either shuts it down within 6", or at least halves the odds if they took Aegis of the Emperor. It does nothing against Purity of Faith, but that's fine – that's a Stratagem.

    (it also bypasses And They Shall Know No Fear/Remorseless, but that's just a side-effect)

     MinMax wrote:
    A minor note, but its ability should probably not be called Daemonic if it isn't a daemon. I think the invulnerable save could be rolled into its Living Illusion ability.
    I honestly just forgot to add the DAEMON keyword. It's partly daemonic, like an alien daemon prince – or the Khymerae, in the Drukhari list.
       
    Made in ca
    Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





    The Frozen North

    Treating 6s as 1s unfairly punishes units which ignore Combat Attrition modifiers.

    Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

    Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
     
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




     MinMax wrote:
    Treating 6s as 1s unfairly punishes units which ignore Combat Attrition modifiers.
    Sure? Treating 6s as 1s is absolutely unfair to Space Marines and Death Guard, who ignore Combat Attrition modifiers and presumably pay extra to do so. Ditto AdMech and Sororitas armies who are using the Light of the Emperor/Incantation of the Iron Soul abilities, Orks armies using Squig Hounds with Gretchin, or Necrons with an Immortal Pride Warlord.

    Does that mean ignoring Combat Attrition modifiers – or ignoring Combat Attrition entirely, like Dark Angels, Graia, Sacred Rose, etc – is unfair to Dark Creed or Poisoned Tongue Drukhari, who apply Combat Attrition modifiers and presumably pay extra to do so? Or Space Marines with Fear Made Manifest Warlords? Does that mean ignoring Morale entirely, like Thousand Sons or Tyranids, is unfair to units which apply Leadership or Morale test modifiers, like Reivers, Night Lords, Chaos Spawn, Drukhari gear, etc? I mean, yes, it is unfair. In an ideal world, all of these would be able to stack/cancel out somehow, so that they were never just totally irrelevant. Unfortunately, that's not the case, so it seems weird to single out the Mindstealer?

    ...plus, in practical terms, a 5-man squad of marines that loses 2 guys and has a Spawn nearby will fail 16% of the time, and lose 0.33 models to CA. With the Sphiranx, they lose 0.66. The absolute biggest hit it'll inflict is +1 fleeing on a squad of 10 that lost two guys, has a Spawn nearby, and failed a Morale test on a 6. It's not a big swing.

    I guess I could limit it somehow, X times per round, etc? The only alternative, if I want to keep the anti-Shield-of-Faith effect, would be split off the CA/Ld penalty into its own bullet point, and have the Psychic/Deny test modifier be separate.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/27 20:04:05


     
       
    Made in dk
    Loyal Necron Lychguard






    65 pts would be power rating 3 right?

    Why would an illusion be more resistant to low S attacks compared to high S attacks? S 6 is normally twice as effective compared to S4, you've made it thrice as effective.

    Gaze of the Mindstealer is never going to come up, it either needs range 18" or it should just be removed.

    "Does that mean ignoring Combat Attrition modifiers – or ignoring Combat Attrition entirely, like Dark Angels, Graia, Sacred Rose, etc – is unfair to Dark Creed or Poisoned Tongue Drukhari, who apply Combat Attrition modifiers and presumably pay extra to do so?"
    No, because as you said you are paying to ignore it. If nobody had any abilities that could be ignored there would be no purpose in having the ability to ignore them in the first place. I don't think it's offensive to have an ability that works this way, but it is worth considering if this is how you would want GW to develop their rules? More and more unique buffs, unique penalties that target buffs, unique buffs that ignore penalties, unique penalties that ignore buffs that ignore penalties...

    Daemonic Illusions: This model has a 4+ invulnerable save.
    Gaze of the Mindstealer: In your Psychic phase, you can select one enemy unit within 18" of and visible to this model and roll 3D6: if the result is greater than the enemy unit's Leadership characteristic, the selected unit cannot Deny the Witch until the end of the phase and loses the Objective Secured ability until the end of your turn and if the unit is currently performing an action, that action automatically fails.
    Telepathic Dread (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 3" of a unit with this ability, subtract 2 from the Leadership characteristic of models in that unit.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




     vict0988 wrote:
    Why would an illusion be more resistant to low S attacks compared to high S attacks? S 6 is normally twice as effective compared to S4, you've made it thrice as effective.
    In early drafts this was Toughness 6; I changed it Toughness 5 with -1 to wound, mainly to make it stand out defensively. As far as I'm aware, the differences between the two would be at Strength 4 (6+ instead of 5+), and Strength 7-9 (4+ instead of 3+). There's not really any problem with swapping it back to T6 (and/or giving it a 4+ invulnerable save), especially given how much real estate the other rules look like they'll need.

     vict0988 wrote:
    "Does that mean ignoring Combat Attrition modifiers – or ignoring Combat Attrition entirely, like Dark Angels, Graia, Sacred Rose, etc – is unfair to Dark Creed or Poisoned Tongue Drukhari, who apply Combat Attrition modifiers and presumably pay extra to do so?"
    No, because as you said you are paying to ignore it. If nobody had any abilities that could be ignored there would be no purpose in having the ability to ignore them in the first place. I don't think it's offensive to have an ability that works this way, but it is worth considering if this is how you would want GW to develop their rules? More and more unique buffs, unique penalties that target buffs, unique buffs that ignore penalties, unique penalties that ignore buffs that ignore penalties...
    Alright, yeah, that's fair. Given the consistent opposition to the mechanic, I'll ditch it and come up with something else. Thanks for the feedback!

    Right now I'm basically looking at three separate effects:
  • An aura ability that passively penalises Morale, Deny the Witch, and Psychic tests.
  • A triggered ability that either allows you to force an enemy to fight last, or allows you to remove ObSec and actions on a 2D6 roll.
  • A Stratagem that allows you to do whatever the ability doesn't.


  • i.e.
    Telepathic Dread (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 9” of this model:
  • Subtract 2 from the Leadership characteristic of models in that unit.
  • Each time a Psychic test or Deny the Witch test is taken for that unit, roll one additional D6 and discard the highest result.


  • And then either Fight Last (Ability) + ObSec (Stratagem):
    Spoiler:
    Transfix: At the start of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy unit within 3" of this model. That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible THOUSAND SONS units from your army have done so.

    GAZE OF THE MINDSTEALER (2CP)
    Use this Stratagem in your Psychic phase. Select one MINDSTEALER SPHIRANX unit in your army and roll 2D6 for each enemy unit within 9” of and visible to that model. If the result is greater than that enemy unit’s Leadership characteristic, until the start of your next Psychic phase, that enemy unit cannot perform actions (if that unit is currently performing an action, it immediately fails), and it loses the Objective Secured ability.

    (or just 1CP for one unit)


    Or ObSec (Ability) + Fight Last (Stratagem):
    Spoiler:
    Domination: In your Psychic phase, select one enemy unit that is within 9” of and visible to this model and roll 2D6: if the result is greater than the enemy unit’s Leadership characteristic, until the start of your next Psychic phase, that enemy unit cannot perform actions (if that unit is currently performing an action, it immediately fails), and it loses the Objective Secured ability.

    TRANSFIXING GAZE (1CP)
    Use this Stratagem at the start of the Fight phase. Select one enemy unit within Engagement Range of a MINDSTEALER SPHIRANX unit from your army. Until the end of the phase, that enemy unit is not eligible to fight until after all eligible THOUSAND SONS units from your army have done so.


    Not sure which I should go with. I guess the Fight Last (Ability) version feels more appropriate, since it reduces the number of rolls you'll be making each turn, and means stripping your enemies of ObSec to potentially help win the game is bigger and more dramatic, and is limited to one model doing it each round instead of every single Mindstealer.

    Though making it a big dramatic multi-unit "aura" of 9" might be too much; Reivers get the same effect for the same cost at 3", and they're not M12"... although their version does kill ObSec without needing a roll, and they actually have the bodies to occupy an objective after killing ObSec (in theory). It could be just the one unit for 1CP, at 18" range? You're still encouraged to get in close due to the -2Ld aura... but that's a bigger range than the longest-range anti-ObSec effect I know of in the game at the moment, the Drukhari Warlord Trait (9") and the Psychomancer ability (12"). Thoughts?

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/30 19:21:09


     
       
    Made in dk
    Loyal Necron Lychguard






    RevlidRas wrote:
    Though making it a big dramatic multi-unit "aura" of 9" might be too much; Reivers get the same effect for the same cost at 3", and they're not M12"... although their version does kill ObSec without needing a roll, and they actually have the bodies to occupy an objective after killing ObSec (in theory). It could be just the one unit for 1CP, at 18" range? You're still encouraged to get in close due to the -2Ld aura... but that's a bigger range than the longest-range anti-ObSec effect I know of in the game at the moment, the Drukhari Warlord Trait (9") and the Psychomancer ability (12"). Thoughts?

    Reivers and Psychomancers are bad, the only Drukhari WL Traits people use to my knowledge are melee buffs, are the rules you're thinking of going to ruin games or are they at worst just going to require a pts increase to be balanced? We can only scratch our beards and pontificate upon the value of units so much before we have to do testing to find out for sure, I think it's okay to make things powerful as long as they seem reasonable and don't make other units in the game that are currently cool, seem uncool with our rules (like making a Space Marines Lieutenant that can beat Abbadon). I posted some change suggestions for Psychomancers in a new thread.
       
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     vict0988 wrote:
    Reivers and Psychomancers are bad, the only Drukhari WL Traits people use to my knowledge are melee buffs, are the rules you're thinking of going to ruin games or are they at worst just going to require a pts increase to be balanced? We can only scratch our beards and pontificate upon the value of units so much before we have to do testing to find out for sure, I think it's okay to make things powerful as long as they seem reasonable and don't make other units in the game that are currently cool, seem uncool with our rules (like making a Space Marines Lieutenant that can beat Abbadon). I posted some change suggestions for Psychomancers in a new thread.
    tbh, I actually forgot that Psychomancers even existed while writing this thing, despite the original version being staggeringly close to having the exact same "roll over Ld, pick one debuff" effect. Probably a bad sign.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran




    Alright, I've got three versions lined up. Can't decide between them yet. Any thoughts?

    Version 1: The Full Package
    Spoiler:
  • Living Mirage: This model has a 4+ invulnerable save.
  • Telepathic Dread (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 6” of this model, each time a Morale test, Psychic test or Deny the Witch test is taken for that unit, or each time that unit is selected for the Transfixing Gaze ability, roll one additional D6 and discard one dice.
  • Transfixing Gaze: In your Psychic phase, select one enemy unit that is within 12” of and visible to this model.
  • -- Until the start of your next Psychic phase, that unit cannot fire Overwatch or Set to Defend, and cannot be selected to fight in the Fight phase until all eligible units from your army have done so.
  • -- Roll 2D6: if the result is equal to or greater than the highest Leadership characteristic of models in that unit, until the start of your next Psychic phase, that enemy unit loses the Objective Secured ability and cannot perform actions (if it is currently performing an action, it immediately fails).

  • This version puts "No Overwatch + Fight Last" and "Roll to Cancel Actions/ObSec" into the same ability, targeting the same unit within 12". OW/Fight Last is automatic, but ObSec/Actions needs a roll. As the ability is free, and doesn't require a Stratagem or Warlord Trait or even a HQ slot, it's 2D6 instead of the Psychomancer's 3D6 – however, it is "equal to or greater than", and the aura makes it 3D6 drop lowest if you're within 6", which makes the odds almost the same.

    In other words, if you're targeting a unit of Marines (Ld8), you have a 42% chance of killing their Actions/ObSec at 12", and a 70% chance of killing their Actions/ObSec within 6". The Psychomancer is at 74% at 12" and 83" within 6", but it's also a HQ slot and a M5 model that absolutely doesn't want to be in melee.

    Version 2: Streamlined
    Spoiler:
  • Living Mirage: This model has a 4+ invulnerable save. Each time this model declares a charge, none of the targets of that charge can fire Overwatch or Set to Defend.
  • Hypnotic Gaze: At the start of the Fight phase, you can select one enemy unit within 3" of this model. That unit is not eligible to fight this phase until after all eligible units from your army have done so.
  • Telepathic Dread (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 9" of this model, each time a Morale test, Psychic test or Deny the Witch test is taken for that unit, roll one additional D6 and discard one of the dice.

  • Overwatch/Set To Defend is just an emergent quality of the fact that no-one can fire Overwatch or Set To Defend against the Mindstealer itself, so you just have to charge with it. Fight Last is a melee ability, just like the Foul Blightspawn. No Actions/ObSec denial – it's a Stratagem, if it even exists. In exchange, the anti-Morale/Psychic aura is increased to 9", and it would get a slightly improved melee statline.

    This is by far the simplest, as well as the easiest to balance and the most in-line with existing non-HQ capabilities. It's definitely the top contender with Version 1, I just can't quite bring myself to strip out the anti-ObSec/Action effect when it's a debuff that Thousand Sons currently lack any access to.

    Version 3: Mind Bullets
    Spoiler:
  • Thought-shredding gaze: Range 12"; Type Assault D3; Strength 8; AP -4; Damage 1; Abilities: Each time an attack is made with this weapon, use the target's Leadership characteristic instead of its Toughness characteristic to determine the wound roll. If a hit is scored with this weapon, until the start of your next Shooting phase the target cannot fire Overwatch or Set to Defend, and cannot be selected to fight until all eligible units from your army have done so.
  • Living Mirage: This model has a 4+ invulnerable save.
  • Dominate Mind: In your Psychic phase, select one enemy unit that is within 12” of and visible to this model and roll 3D6: if the result is greater than the enemy unit’s Leadership characteristic, until the start of your next Psychic phase, that enemy unit cannot perform actions (if that unit is currently performing an action, it immediately fails), and it loses the Objective Secured ability.
  • Telepathic Dread (Aura): While an enemy unit is within 6” of this model, each time a Morale test, Psychic test or Deny the Witch test is taken for that unit, or each time that unit is selected for the Dominate Mind ability, roll one additional D6 and discard one dice.

  • This version moves "no OW + Fight last" into a gun – one which the Mindstealer can fire into melee, since it's a MONSTER. It would also knock 1A off the profile, since it gets 1-3 reasonably nasty shooting attacks. Everything else is basically the same. I'm shying away from this one, because while it was intended to separate out the Mindstealer's various abilities and make them less complicated, I think it actually does the opposite. It means the Mindstealer can and must select two targets, in two different phases, and make a total of 2-4 rolls (before wound rolls) to see if those abilities work – as opposed to just selecting one unit and rolling once.

    Autohit on the gun would reduce the rolling, but increase the power, the amount of text needed for the gun, and still mean the Mindstealer could target two units. Removing the "wound on Leadership" ability would shorten the text needed for the gun, but I despise the "Eyeburst" statline on the Medusae just being a warpflame pistol that cares about Toughness. Might be best to give up on this one.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/02 20:06:54


     
       
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    V1 seems best to me, but something smells funny about the wording on Telepathic Dread, have you checked any similar abilities for wording used?

    I especially dislike the part where V2 only lets your Thousand Sons units fight before the catnipped unit.
       
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     vict0988 wrote:
    V1 seems best to me, but something smells funny about the wording on Telepathic Dread, have you checked any similar abilities for wording used?
    It's pretty common for charges and Morale tests, but there's no real consistency that I can find.
  • The Thousand Sons codex has a Warlord Trait and Relic that lets you do this on Psychic tests, and both say "roll one additional D6 and discard one D6". So I should probably use that.
  • The Drukhari codex says "roll one additional D6 and discard the lowest result", but I can't use that because it doesn't work for anything but Morale tests.
  • Space Wolves and Mechanicus say "roll one additional D6 and discard one of the dice", which is what I used here.
  • White Scars and Iron Hands say "discard one of the results", which doesn't really make sense to me because I'm pretty sure a "result" is what you get after adding those up.
  • Chaos Space Marines say "your opponent must roll one additional D6 and you can choose one of those dice to be discarded". Which makes sense, given the other "enemy rolls 3d6 and drops one" abilities all specify highest/lowest.


  • So I guess it should be either:
  • While an enemy unit is within 6” of this model, each time a Morale test, Psychic test or Deny the Witch test is taken for that unit, or each time that unit is selected for the Transfixing Gaze ability, roll one additional D6 and choose one of those dice to be discarded.
  • While an enemy unit is within 6” of this model, each time a Morale test, Psychic test or Deny the Witch test is taken for that unit, or each time that unit is selected for the Transfixing Gaze ability, roll one additional D6 and discard one D6.
  •    
    Made in dk
    Loyal Necron Lychguard






    It definitely has to be the CSM version because normally you cannot discard or roll for your opponent and your two suggestions fail to say that you get get to choose which D6 is disarded or who rolls the additional D6. The White Scars rule is for rolling your own charge roll so it isn't applicable for this rule.

    While an enemy unit is within 6” of this model, each time a Morale test, Psychic test or Deny the Witch test is taken for that unit, or each time that unit is selected for the Transfixing Gaze ability, your opponent must roll one additional D6 and you can choose one of those dice to be discarded.

    Then change transfixing gaze so the roll is your opponent's to make.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/03 04:23:19


     
       
     
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