Switch Theme:

Artefactotum  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Can I check artefactotum can be used if your warlord is not adeptus mechanicus - BS flags it as an error but I can't find any restriction against it only the vague line in the strategem "this must be a relic it can have" when none of the relics appear to have any restrictions?
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

First line of the relics page

If your army is led by an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS WARLORD, you can...


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

How is that a restriction?


Full quote not cherry pick
"If your army is led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord , you can when mustering your army, give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an adeptus mechanicus character model in your army. Named characters cannot be given the following relics."

Most of that paragraph is permissive

The only restriction I can see is the sentence named characters cannot be given the following relics but that wouldn't apply to artefactotum as it can't be used to give a relic to a named character.

In addition were it a restriction artefactotum would never work as it only gives permission to give a relic to characters and Artefactotum only refers to non characters

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 07:00:42


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

U02dah4 wrote:
How is that a restriction?
Because the Strat literally says:
"this must be a relic it can have"

It can not have a relic unless "your army is led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord"

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

But the full quote doesn't say that


How is that a restriction?

"If your army is led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord , you can when mustering your army, give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an adeptus mechanicus character model in your army. Named characters cannot be given the following relics."

you've just made up a line it cannot have relics unless and then put in quotes your army is lead by an adeptus mechanicus warlord. That's not actually a line of text in the book.

If there is a restriction your aware can you supply the full quote.

I mean if that quote existed you would be right but it doesn't .

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 07:45:40


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Doesn't say what?

It exists, no matter how much you ignore it.

It literally says:
"If your army is led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord you can...give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an adeptus mechanicus character model in your army"

If your army is not led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord, can you give a arcana mechanicum to a adeptus mechanicus character?
Hint the answer is no, so that would not qualify as "this must be a relic it can have" because if the warlord is not an adeptus mechanicus warlord, then you can not have that relic...

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 08:40:24


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





U02dah4 wrote:
But the full quote doesn't say that


How is that a restriction?

"If your army is led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord , you can when mustering your army, give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an adeptus mechanicus character model in your army. Named characters cannot be given the following relics."

you've just made up a line it cannot have relics unless and then put in quotes your army is lead by an adeptus mechanicus warlord. That's not actually a line of text in the book.

If there is a restriction your aware can you supply the full quote.

I mean if that quote existed you would be right but it doesn't .


It is a restriction because it tells you that if your army meets a specific requirement (it is led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord) then you can do something (give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an adeptus mechanicus character). If you don't meet the specified requirement (having an adeptus mechanicus warlord), you cannot. Its an IF/THEN situation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/01 09:23:18


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

No there's no then

Just an if

If you meet A you can do B

There's no if you do not meet A you can't do B

Giving something permission is not saying something else can't also give permission to do that.

E.g. if a rule says my character can advance 6" that doesn't mean my troops can't advance if another rule gives them permission.

Plus specifically the permission being granted is not for the army to use arcana mechanicum but to give one to a character.


Artefactotum
Use this Stratagem before the battle, when you are mustering your army. Select one SKITARII model in your army that has the word ‘Alpha’ or ‘Princeps’ in their profile and give them one of the following Arcana Mechanicum (this must be a Relic they could have): The Cage of Varadimas; Temporcopia; The Omniscient Mask; The Skull of Elder Nikola."

Also gives permission.

(Subject to)
"Each Relic in your army must be unique, and you cannot use this Stratagem to give a model two Relics. You can only use this Stratagem once, unless you are playing a Strike Force battle (in which case, you can use this Stratagem twice) or an Onslaught battle (in which case, you can use this Stratagem three times"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Doesn't say what?

It exists, no matter how much you ignore it.

It literally says:
"If your army is led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord you can...give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an adeptus mechanicus character model in your army"

If your army is not led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord, can you give a arcana mechanicum to a adeptus mechanicus character?
Hint the answer is no, so that would not qualify as "this must be a relic it can have" because if the warlord is not an adeptus mechanicus warlord, then you can not have that relic...



No its not relevant if my army is adeptus mechanicus I can give one to a character for free great - I can't I don't qualify. However that only references giving a character a free relic and I am not trying to give a character a free relic

I am trying to use a strategem that gives me permission to give a non character a relic

That says nothing about the army useing arcana mechanicum by other means or non characters.

So even if i met its requirement it wouldn't grant permission.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 10:49:45


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

U02dah4 wrote:
No there's no then

Just an if

If you meet A you can do B

There's no if you do not meet A you can't do B
The permissive ruleset says that...

"There's no if you do not meet A you can't do B" is the same as saying "It doesn't say I cant"

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/01 10:26:20


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Well I have that that from

Artefactotum
Use this Stratagem before the battle, when you are mustering your army. Select one SKITARII model in your army that has the word ‘Alpha’ or ‘Princeps’ in their profile and give them one of the following Arcana Mechanicum.

Clear permission


Subject to
(this must be a Relic they could have)

With no rule yet provided saying they could not have it only one granting permission for a different type of unit to have 1

As I have permission and nothing says it can't I have permission in a permissive ruleset

Permission A = do B
does not equal restriction C can't do B
So When C gives permission to do B - C can do B.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 10:47:39


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

And how do you get past the restriction of "If your army is led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord you can...give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an adeptus mechanicus character model in your army"

when the permission literally says "this must be a Relic they could have"

If If your army is not led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord, then those relics are not a Relic you can have.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Well it's not a restriction it's a permission so I don't need to

And a permission that does not apply to non characters in anyway so would not be relevant even if I met it

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 11:13:21


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Unless you meet the "if" , there are no relics you can have.

We know this, because that's what the rule says.

Oh, and it literally is if, then. As that's how an if clause works.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

I agree it's an if and a then

"If your army is led by an adeptus mechanicus warlord

Then " you can give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an adeptus mechanicus character model in your army"

However I disagree in that's all it says 1 Relic may be given to a character in your army

there are no restrictions on other sorces of arcana mechanicum just permission same as the ik codex doesn't prevent questoris knights taking a relic by Stratagem . It doesn't say if you don't meet this rule you can't take any arcana mechanicum, you just dont get the free one.

Further thats why the extra relic strat says

Use this Stratagem before the battle, when you are mustering your army, if your WARLORD has the ADEPTUS MECHANICUS keyword. Select one ADEPTUS MECHANICUS CHARACTER model in your army and give them one Relic (this must be a Relic they can have). Each Relic in your army must be unique, and you cannot use this Stratagem to give a model two Relics.

Why would it need the warlord clause if the other sentence was a restriction

It needs to reference the warlord because there is no restriction

Artefactotum
Use this Stratagem before the battle, when you are mustering your army. Select one SKITARII model in your army that has the word ‘Alpha’ or ‘Princeps’ in their profile and give them one of the following Arcana Mechanicum.this must be a Relic they could have

Has no warlord restriction and wouldn't be referred to by the first if clause because they are not an adeptus mechanicus character

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 13:21:45


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Must be a relic they can have. Without having a AM warlord how many relics are available?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

With an am warlord 0 are available to non characters same as without you need permission and the only permission is the strategem.

Ergo by that logic the strategem does nothing ever

So I would answer 4 the 4 specifically listed in the strategem giving you permission to take them given no restrictions have been cited except named characters.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 14:58:01


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





U02dah4 wrote:
With an am warlord 0 are available to non characters same as without you need permission and the only permission is the strategem.

Ergo by that logic the strategem does nothing ever


It would allow giving an Arcana Mechanicum to a SKITARII character with "Alpha" or "Princeps" in their title.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Yes because the strategem gives permission
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





which points out your statement "Ergo by that logic the strategem does nothing ever" isn't true. Just because it does nothing for non-characters doesn't mean it does nothing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/01 15:07:45


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

 doctortom wrote:
which points out your statement "Ergo by that logic the strategem does nothing ever" isn't true. Just because it does nothing for non-characters doesn't mean it does nothing.


I don't follow

His logic seems to be that because you don't get a free relic on a character another source is not able to give permission to a non character

So he's asking how many relics can you take without an admech warlord so I answer 0 (so he can make the false claim that means the army can't take any relics). (When really they just don't get a free one)

I am pointing out that by the same logic he's using even with an am warlord 0 can go to non characters

So useing his logic that means the stratagem does nothing ever as nothing else gives permission for them to normally take them.

Which is clearly false ergo his argument is wrong

Because it is self evidently not intended to do nothing in all situations

Unless your saying the stratagem thats only purpose is to give relics to non characters does nothing for non characters but has another purpose- in which case please enlighten me because there is only one SKITARII character and it does not have princeps or alpha in the title it has marshal - princeps and alpha are the SKITARII terms for sgt. So the purpose of the strat by your logic would be to give a relic to a model that doesn't exist in the game.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 15:23:54


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

U02dah4 wrote:
Well it's not a restriction it's a permission so I don't need to

And a permission that does not apply to non characters in anyway so would not be relevant even if I met it
Except you need permission, lack of permission means you can not do that thing.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

I have permission the strat
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

U02dah4 wrote:
I have permission the strat
Except you don't have permission to take a relic because you can only take a relic "If your army is led by an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS WARLORD"

So you actually do not have permission because the Strat literally says: "this must be a relic it can have"

If you do not have a AM Warlord, you can't actually have any of those relics.

You have no way around this, your arguments are in bad faith.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/01 21:08:52


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

You have shown no restriction and provided no quote stateing those words or words to that effect ergo it is not a requirement

It can have the relics as nothing says it cant and the strat gives permission

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/09/01 21:41:20


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

U02dah4 wrote:
"If your army is led by an Adeptus Mechanicus warlord, you can when mustering your army, give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an Adeptus Mechanicus character model in your army. Named characters cannot be given the following relics."
DeathReaper, nothing in this statement makes having a Adeptus Mechanicus warlord a requirement to have any arcana mechanicum. It just allows you to take one if you do have one. It in no way restricts you from having them via another source.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 alextroy wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
"If your army is led by an Adeptus Mechanicus warlord, you can when mustering your army, give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an Adeptus Mechanicus character model in your army. Named characters cannot be given the following relics."
DeathReaper, nothing in this statement makes having a Adeptus Mechanicus warlord a requirement to have any arcana mechanicum. It just allows you to take one if you do have one. It in no way restricts you from having them via another source.
False, because there is no permission to have a relic without an Adeptus Mechanicus warlord. Unless you have a quote stating otherwise.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

There is no requirement to have an adeptus mechanicus warlord as alextroy says as you have not provided one

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/02 07:16:38


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




So what does "it must be a relic they can have" mean? If the only way to have any relic at all is to have a warlord...
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 DeathReaper wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
"If your army is led by an Adeptus Mechanicus warlord, you can when mustering your army, give one of the following arcana mechanicum to an Adeptus Mechanicus character model in your army. Named characters cannot be given the following relics."
DeathReaper, nothing in this statement makes having a Adeptus Mechanicus warlord a requirement to have any arcana mechanicum. It just allows you to take one if you do have one. It in no way restricts you from having them via another source.
False, because there is no permission to have a relic without an Adeptus Mechanicus warlord. Unless you have a quote stating otherwise.
That's what the "Artefactotum" stratagem does though. It gives you permission to give a Skitarii model in the army (with the word Alpha or Princeps in their profile) one of the specified relics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
So what does "it must be a relic they can have" mean? If the only way to have any relic at all is to have a warlord...

Some relics replace wargear. For example the Phosphoenix can only be used by a model equiped with a phosphor serpenta and replaces it. If someone doesn't have that, then that's a relic they can't have because they don't meet the relic requirements.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/02 09:33:25


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I understand that is one possible explanation, but is it the only one?
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: