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Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




So today I was having a discussion and my friend asked if an invasion fleet could be shot out the space by a Shadowsword/Titan Gun. I told him no, but then I recalled there are ground based laser systems that can shoot at and hit space ships, or ships in the atmosphere (kinda hazy on that) Seeing as how most Titan level guns are basically the size of ground based planet defense batteries, how easy would it be for say, an Imperator, or Emperor titan to target a ship in orbit and hit it with a Emperor level weapon? Are there such weapons that could breach atmo? I have to believe that a sufficiently powerful laser weapon CAN reach a ship in orbit, as it's a beam of light. The Volacano cannon would be the most powerful of those correct? So a Shadowsword likely doesn't have the power to get the shot off, but I have to imagine an Emperor class titan could.

Is there any lore out there of titan weapons attacking ships in space? If ground based systems can do it, titans have to be able to.
   
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The actual weapon might be the same size but the power needed for it to actually do the shooting would likely be far in excess of what a Titan can manage.
A Titan's reactor needs to power multiple weapon systems, targeting systems, allow the Titan to move, and a host of other tasks.
A Defence Laser just needs to worry about being able to fire.
   
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dorset

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So today I was having a discussion and my friend asked if an invasion fleet could be shot out the space by a Shadowsword/Titan Gun. I told him no, but then I recalled there are ground based laser systems that can shoot at and hit space ships, or ships in the atmosphere (kinda hazy on that) Seeing as how most Titan level guns are basically the size of ground based planet defense batteries, how easy would it be for say, an Imperator, or Emperor titan to target a ship in orbit and hit it with a Emperor level weapon? Are there such weapons that could breach atmo? I have to believe that a sufficiently powerful laser weapon CAN reach a ship in orbit, as it's a beam of light. The Volacano cannon would be the most powerful of those correct? So a Shadowsword likely doesn't have the power to get the shot off, but I have to imagine an Emperor class titan could.

Is there any lore out there of titan weapons attacking ships in space? If ground based systems can do it, titans have to be able to.


Titan scale guns are not even close to being big enough to threaten a 40K warship.

Remember that in 40K, true, jump capable starships start at around a mile in length and go up form there. Capital-ship grade weapons are, quite literally, the size of some titans, and warships are armoured to withstand attacks form weaponry on that scale.

you could, quite literally, have a a full scale battle on the hull of a 40K battleship (which IIRC are somewhere around 8000m long), and im pretty sure several armies have done just that, up to and including having titans duke it out on the outside of a warship.


their are ground based orbital defences, yes, but they are either saturn V sized anti-starship torpedo's launched form ICBM style silos, or high powered energy guns ("Lances") the size of a empire state building.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
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Many of the planet bases systems are simple warship prow lances taken off ruined ships and mounted pointing up. The others are normally missile based.

Even if select titan weapons could threaten orbital ships you simply are not getting the elevation to target them.
   
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Lebanon NH

Ah, 40k ship sizes :-)

Now I want to have a battle on the hull of a starship!
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Notably, the Emperor titan can mount a defense laser on the carapace.
   
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

leerm02 wrote:
Ah, 40k ship sizes :-)

Now I want to have a battle on the hull of a starship!


seen it done as a games day battlefield. wasnt able to get a game on it, but it was a very impressive board.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Is there any lore out there of titan weapons attacking ships in space? If ground based systems can do it, titans have to be able to.
The Emperor class titan mounts a small defense laser emplacement on its carapace.
Volcano cannons are also fundamentally titan-grade defense lasers, though on smaller titans are not particularly suited for shooting at starships.

As powerful as they are a single titan-based defense laser is of little meaningful threat to an actual warship, but is suitable for engaging dropships and other heavy orbital landing and attack craft that might be deployed from space. They would be comparable to the weapons used in las-macrobatteries on ships that don't have the power to mount full sized anti-shipping lances.

The larger battleships mount things like the old hellfire-class torpedo - "the payload of a Hellfire is one hundred and twelve sub-munitions, each one with a five giga-tonne warhead." - Space Hulk Rulebook, pg.3.
That's around 300,000 hiroshimas per warhead, one hundred and twelve warheads per torpedo, fired in salvos of six as secondary armament to the gothics lance batteries.

Or they could just break out the big guns - https://youtu.be/h67JpMyrOVE?t=115

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/04 22:32:49


 
   
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Lebanon NH

A.T. wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Is there any lore out there of titan weapons attacking ships in space? If ground based systems can do it, titans have to be able to.
The Emperor class titan mounts a small defense laser emplacement on its carapace.
Volcano cannons are also fundamentally titan-grade defense lasers, though on smaller titans are not particularly suited for shooting at starships.

As powerful as they are a single titan-based defense laser is of little meaningful threat to an actual warship, but is suitable for engaging dropships and other heavy orbital landing and attack craft that might be deployed from space. They would be comparable to the weapons used in las-macrobatteries on ships that don't have the power to mount full sized anti-shipping lances.

The larger battleships mount things like the old hellfire-class torpedo - "the payload of a Hellfire is one hundred and twelve sub-munitions, each one with a five giga-tonne warhead." - Space Hulk Rulebook, pg.3.
That's around 300,000 hiroshimas per warhead, one hundred and twelve warheads per torpedo, fired in salvos of six as secondary armament to the gothics lance batteries.

Or they could just break out the big guns - https://youtu.be/h67JpMyrOVE?t=115


Not to be THAT GUY: but this right here? This is why the Imperium would totally win out against star-trek/star-wars. The scales of 40k warfare are just so ridiculous!

...now I'm gonna go play Battlefleet Gothic 2 again :-)
   
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leerm02 wrote:
Not to be THAT GUY: but this right here? This is why the Imperium would totally win out against star-trek/star-wars. The scales of 40k warfare are just so ridiculous!
Depends on your sources. Did you know for instance that those clone trooper transports in the prequels (the dinky little open-sided landing skiffs) were armed with multiple salvo firing 100 kiloton missile launchers... apparently.

Always the problem of showing the firepower of a faster than light technology base (who by all reason could easily just throw a big rock very quickly at a planet if they wanted to cause damage). IIRC it was said by one of the TNG writers back in the day that they had to just quietly ignore the implications of the settings technology in order to have shoot-outs where one side didn't just vapourise everything in the general direction of the other side, but then still have episodes with the Enterprise burning a hole half way through a planet while being careful not to accidentally set the atmosphere on fire.

No such restrictions for 40k so far.
   
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Lebanon NH

Not to derail the conversation (well, more than it already has been,) but I would HIGHLY recommend the book: "The Last Human" (by Zack Jordan) for exactly that kind of thing.

Without giving away any spoilers: every other sentient species in the galaxy decides to play nice and work together. Humans start throwing space rocks at everyone and other such warlike practices (basically trying to be 40k Imperium on everyone, with exactly that kind of reckless attitude,)... until they all get smacked down.

It's pretty great.
   
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Not as up to date as I would like but a nice chart of sizes. Most of the settings have equally insane large ships.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/05 14:28:16


 
   
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The Shire(s)

Could you please put that enormous image in spoiler tags for us mobile users?

Duty's Fist - Duty's Fist was the Defence Laser deployed to protect the west gate of the city of Bellephon upon the world of Thesus Reach, and employed technology dating back to the Dark Age of Technology. The Fist could reroute the power supplies of the entire metropolis into one earth-shattering laser blast. When fired in this manner, Duty's Fist possessed the capability to shatter a Battle Titan into a thousand pieces and even engage targets in orbit above the planet. During the battle for Bellephon when the Forces of Chaos assaulted Thesus Reach during the 13th Black Crusade, Duty's Fist exchanged fire with the Planet Killer, Abaddon the Despoiler's personal flagship. Though it forced the Planet Killer to undertake evasive manoeuvres, it was eventually disabled by a powerful Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, and its defenders were torn apart by a one-man assault by Kharn the Betrayer, Champion of Khorne.


This is the defense laser in the "Exterminatus" battle report from the 2007 Apocalypse 1st edition.

It re-routed power from an entire city to fire, and it appears to be fairly common for defense lasers to cause widespread blackouts when firing. This weapon was capable of knocking out battle titans in a single hit, and the Planet Killer was a unique, enormous capital ship, so I doubt any titan-grade weapon would have been capable of threatening it. Defense lasers look to have significantly greater capabilities than titan weaponry at the upper end.

Image of Duty's Fist:
Spoiler:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
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 Haighus wrote:
Could you please put that enormous image in spoiler tags for us mobile users?

Duty's Fist - Duty's Fist was the Defence Laser deployed to protect the west gate of the city of Bellephon upon the world of Thesus Reach, and employed technology dating back to the Dark Age of Technology. The Fist could reroute the power supplies of the entire metropolis into one earth-shattering laser blast. When fired in this manner, Duty's Fist possessed the capability to shatter a Battle Titan into a thousand pieces and even engage targets in orbit above the planet. During the battle for Bellephon when the Forces of Chaos assaulted Thesus Reach during the 13th Black Crusade, Duty's Fist exchanged fire with the Planet Killer, Abaddon the Despoiler's personal flagship. Though it forced the Planet Killer to undertake evasive manoeuvres, it was eventually disabled by a powerful Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, and its defenders were torn apart by a one-man assault by Kharn the Betrayer, Champion of Khorne.


This is the defense laser in the "Exterminatus" battle report from the 2007 Apocalypse 1st edition.

It re-routed power from an entire city to fire, and it appears to be fairly common for defense lasers to cause widespread blackouts when firing. This weapon was capable of knocking out battle titans in a single hit, and the Planet Killer was a unique, enormous capital ship, so I doubt any titan-grade weapon would have been capable of threatening it. Defense lasers look to have significantly greater capabilities than titan weaponry at the upper end.

Image of Duty's Fist:
Spoiler:



Not that size means everything, but the qualitative power described for Duty's fist is one thing, but the model representation is smaller than a Forge World warlord titan's volcano cannon....

For something that can duel with the planet killer I would expect a weapon larger than an emperor titan...



Defence lasers were designed as anti ship emplacements.

In BFG they were represented by lance batteries mounted on the surface of a planet, so if you think about defence weaponry as basically ship weapons mounted on the ground then it makes more sense.


The reason why ships aren't just nuking titans with full broadsides, is that when ground troops have deployed for a ground war, there's a limited amount of involvement orbital batteries could have without putting their own troops at significant risk.

In epic armageddon, you can take space ship support, but they're very limited in either deploying pintpoint strikes with orbital lances against war engines like titans, or a single blast from a battery onto the table which can hit your own units if you're not careful.

A full orbital barrage from a ship would easily cover the whole board and destroy your own forces.

That and enemy ships will be keeping your ships tied up in combat.





   
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So in the recent Plague war series, there are countless pages where literal titan clans, and knight clans, go to war on open battlefield, against plague daemon titans? Basically they are giant wooden things. All of this is observable by the MACRAGGES HONOR, which is sitting above the planet. Later in the same book, the expertly lance strike a single spot on the same planet, with ZERO friendly casualties. How are lance batteries not able to target titans? This makes zero sense. And if a lance Battery can range a titan on the ground, a Imperator Titan Sunfury plasma cannon should be able to range space.
   
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The Shire(s)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So in the recent Plague war series, there are countless pages where literal titan clans, and knight clans, go to war on open battlefield, against plague daemon titans? Basically they are giant wooden things. All of this is observable by the MACRAGGES HONOR, which is sitting above the planet. Later in the same book, the expertly lance strike a single spot on the same planet, with ZERO friendly casualties. How are lance batteries not able to target titans? This makes zero sense. And if a lance Battery can range a titan on the ground, a Imperator Titan Sunfury plasma cannon should be able to range space.

Eh, bad writing. They should come up with an adequate excuse for why orbital bombardment isn't an option. Usually strong defenses forcing the ship to keep its distance or risk heavy damage.

Space Marine vessels may have some highly accurate bombardment mini-lances though, because they are regularly shown to be able to snipe units from orbit and this was represented in rules even. I suspect these are different to the ship-killing weapons, which are more likely to take out a titan and probably much more likely to cause collateral.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
 
   
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It is as Haighus said. Horrible writing from bad authors.

Take another book, Warlord: Fury of the god machine. Imperial vs Chaos. The Navy has orbital supremacy and there are no functioning weapons left that can target them. With a horde of chaos titans moving from one hive to another, along a known path, what would you do?

Instead of obliterating them from orbit, the ships close in, drop a single crewless titan as backup, and then watch as everything gets obliterated. Friendly legios, chaos legio, and the hive.

And all because of grimdark.


Edit: The Sunfury is an arm cannon. Even if it can range into orbit I highly doubt the titan has the ability to elevate it effectively.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/12 06:25:53


 
   
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It’s all going to be tied to the their purpose.

Titans are land battleships. That’s their combat role.

Ground based surface to orbit weapons? Well…..they’re surface to orbit weapons.

Both are likely powered by Plasma generators. Surface weapons likely have their own, dedicated plasma generator, which is solely for powering that weapon. A Titan? That Plasma generator (reactor, now I think about it) is power the God Engine, Shields and Weapons, hence they’re prone to overheating.

So. Yeah. Surface orbital defence weapons are going to be more powerful, because they’re not competing for power the way a Titan’s systems inherently are.

   
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I think the best answer is that horrible writing has led me to the belief that Titans are stronger than they actually are. Thank you all!
   
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Fixture of Dakka






When the Imperator titan came out, the "defence laser" on its carapace tower was just a volcano cannon with AA capability; the actual weapon was the same as the one mounted on titans and the Shadowsword tank.

The only weapon mounted on a ground-based vehicle, to my recollection, ever described as being from a starship, was on the Squat Cyclops super-heavy vehicle:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Cyclops_(Squat)&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop

(from around the same time as the Imperator was introduced).
   
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When I first got into 40K, only Titans could carry super heavy plasma weapons due to power requirements.

Then came the Stormshadow.

Things change.

   
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Stormblade.

In 1st edition Epic, Warlords and Reavers could both carry the same weapons (although Warlords could usually mount versions with a higher "grade" - a grade 1 plasma gun rolled one dice to hit, a grade 3 rolled 3 dice). Warhounds could also mount the same weapons but not the super-heavy weapons (plasma cannon, defense lasers, quake cannon). At that point, the metal weapons for the Reaver and Warhound were just alernate models for the same weapons as represented by the plastic pieces on the Warlord weapons sprue. When 2nd edition came around, those metal weapons were retconned into being smaller weapons for the Warhound and Reaver titans, and the newly-renamed "plasma blastgun" was expilicitly said to be for those two lighter chassis bcause they were forbidden to mount the bigger Warlord plasma weapons.
   
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Other than a GI Joe character, is there a 40K super heavy of that name?

And yes your correction is accepted and acknowledged!

   
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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
In 1st edition Epic, Warlords and Reavers could both carry the same weapons (although Warlords could usually mount versions with a higher "grade" - a grade 1 plasma gun rolled one dice to hit, a grade 3 rolled 3 dice). Warhounds could also mount the same weapons but not the super-heavy weapons (plasma cannon, defense lasers, quake cannon).
Plasma cannons and destructors on the warlords only, plasma blastguns on the reaver and warhound (and stormblade).
Curiously no other restrictions listed on the warhound datasheet that I have here (white dwarf 144 UK).

Of course the best (and worst) loadout for 1st edition titans was a squadron of warlords with a big plasma weapon, fire control center, corvus assault pods and a corvus assault head. Statistically you'd either get three up-shielded reaver equivalents an a huge block of free infantry... or the game would end half way though turn 1 in a hail of deathstrike missiles and barrage launchers.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So in the recent Plague war series, there are countless pages where literal titan clans, and knight clans, go to war on open battlefield, against plague daemon titans? Basically they are giant wooden things. All of this is observable by the MACRAGGES HONOR, which is sitting above the planet. Later in the same book, the expertly lance strike a single spot on the same planet, with ZERO friendly casualties. How are lance batteries not able to target titans? This makes zero sense. And if a lance Battery can range a titan on the ground, a Imperator Titan Sunfury plasma cannon should be able to range space.


As I said in the post directly above yours, Epic Armageddon allowed ships to attack the ground, but they were very targeted an limited.

Lance batteries could only make pin point strikes against War Engines and Titans, while their barrage weapons were limited so a small blast that had a fixed target so if you weren't careful you could hit your own.

The lance batteries had the same stats as a volcano cannon. If you wanted a titan weapon to target orbital ships, you're most likely going to use one of those, not a sunfury. In BFG plasma weapons are relegated to batteries, they don't make Lances out of them.


Remembering that an atmosphere provides dispersion and/or drag on any shots you make, while in space they can go for hundreds of kilometres without issue.




   
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I'd imagine that titan weapons would fire at a slower rate than the ones mounted on ships or in fixed emplacements. Ships would surely have better cooling, reloading and generator systems to keep them running. Titans are sophisticated sure, but they also have to maintain a lot in a relatively compact form, keeping upright and mobile on a bipedal platform takes more effort than a person realizes.

Perhaps a ships void shields would recover faster than a titans could, meaning the ship would have a massive advantage even if their weapons were equivalent. (Which I don't think they are.)

Then the question must be asked.... can a titans weapons even aim upwards? Maybe some titan that's fallen on it's back could make some final gesture of defiance as it's weapons are now pointing skyward?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/14 23:33:14


 
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Other than a GI Joe character, is there a 40K super heavy of that name?

I don't think so - when it comes to IG Super Heavy Tanks, both Storm- and Shadow- appear to be prefixes, along with Doom-, Bane- and Hell-.

Suffixes from known vehicles appear to be -blade, -sword, -hammer, and -lord.

I'm curious as to what a Shadowlord SHT would be, I must admit.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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cody.d. wrote:
Then the question must be asked.... can a titans weapons even aim upwards? Maybe some titan that's fallen on it's back could make some final gesture of defiance as it's weapons are now pointing skyward?
The defense laser on the Emperor class set in a special anti-air mount. The rest have limited elevation but the titan could kneel/lean back in theory (less so for the Emperor) but are probably not equipped to target ships in orbit even if they could point their weapon in the right direction.


 Dysartes wrote:
I don't think so - when it comes to IG Super Heavy Tanks, both Storm- and Shadow- appear to be prefixes, along with Doom-, Bane- and Hell-.
Suffixes from known vehicles appear to be -blade, -sword, -hammer, and -lord.
I'm curious as to what a Shadowlord SHT would be, I must admit.
There isn't much consistency. Probably something with a turbolaser and transport capacity.

Bane - Blade - Turret weapon, hull demolisher
Storm - Blade - Fixed weapon only
Storm - Sword - Fixed weapon only
Storm - Lord - Fixed weapon, Transport
Storm - Hammer - Two twin turrets turrets
Hell - Hammer - Turret weapon, hull demolisher
Doom - Hammer - Fixed weapon, Transport
Bane - Hammer - Fixed weapon, Transport
Bane - Sword - Fixed weapon only
Shadow - Sword - Fixed weapon only



   
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 Dysartes wrote:
I don't think so - when it comes to IG Super Heavy Tanks, both Storm- and Shadow- appear to be prefixes, along with Doom-, Bane- and Hell-.
Suffixes from known vehicles appear to be -blade, -sword, -hammer, and -lord.
I'm curious as to what a Shadowlord SHT would be, I must admit.
There isn't much consistency. Probably something with a turbolaser and transport capacity.

Bane - Blade - Turret weapon, hull demolisher
Storm - Blade - Fixed weapon only
Storm - Sword - Fixed weapon only
Storm - Lord - Fixed weapon, Transport
Storm - Hammer - Two twin turrets turrets
Hell - Hammer - Turret weapon, hull demolisher
Doom - Hammer - Fixed weapon, Transport
Bane - Hammer - Fixed weapon, Transport
Bane - Sword - Fixed weapon only
Shadow - Sword - Fixed weapon only


I do think Blade, Hammer, Lord, and Sword have some form of meaning.

- Blade: Is more of your traditional heavy tank, something like a Tiger or IS. Though the Stormblade kinda messes with this. Perhaps jack-all-trades is a better description, the Stormblades plasma weapon can take out nearly any target equally, only needing to overcharge against the most powerful threats.
- Hammer: Some kind of assault gun. Used to assault or demolish enemy fortifications. Can be a transport, but not necessarily.
- Lord: Specifically a heavy transport. Has "lighter" weapons in exchange for more transport capacity.
- Sword: Is some kind of heavy self-propelled gun. Think something like a Ferdinand, Jagdtiger, IS-152, etc.

So, I do think you're right and that a hypothetical Shadowlord would probably have a turbo-laser destructor and a transport capacity around 25 - 40.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/16 03:44:40


 
   
 
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