Switch Theme:

Be'lakor advance and charge?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan






Austin, Texas.

So I read in many competitive tournament analysis/articles that Bel'akor is potentially competitive because he can advance and charge in a slaanesh daemon detachment.

Yet, I also see in the faq that the daemon detachment loses all loci?

So does he get to advance and charge in a slaanesh daemon detachment or not?

Thanks to anyone who knows where to find the relevant rules.

I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine. 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






RAW, the FAQ entry still applies, even though it was written for an old datasheet. The FAQ entry is still in a current publication, and the datasheet name that it refers to is still the same.

Most people seem to agree that the FAQ shouldn't apply by RAI, though, since it was for the old Be'lakor datasheet from when he didn't have all allegiances. That's probably where these discussions come from.
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

Yes, new belakor can advance and charge in a slaanesh deamon detachment, because its a pure slaanesh detachment, he has the SLAANESH keyword. The old belakor didnt have NURGLE, SLAANESH, KHORNE, TZEENTCH. Thats why the chaos daemon FAQ says the daemon detachment would lose loci. GW simply forgot to change the FAQ.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/14 22:47:31


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The Daemonic Loci rules say "If your army is Battle-forged, all CHARACTERS in Chaos Daemons Detachments gain a Daemonic Locus, so long as every unit in that Detachment owes its allegiance to the same Chaos God" (Page 124 Codex: Chaos Daemons)

40k FAQ wrote:If I include Be’lakor in a Detachment in which every other unit owes its allegiance to the same Chaos God, does that Detachment benefit from the Daemonic Loci ability?
A: No, as Be’lakor does not owe allegiance to any one Chaos God.

The FAQ says that the daemon detachment does not benefit from the Daemonic Loci ability if Be’lakor is included that detachment.

This is the current RAW.

Unless they change the FAQ it will stay the RAW.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/14 23:03:47


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan






Austin, Texas.

Well that's annoying. The tourney I'm competing in is taking it RAW so no advance and charge. Last minute list change time let's go

I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine. 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Daemonic Loci rules say "If your army is Battle-forged, all CHARACTERS in Chaos Daemons Detachments gain a Daemonic Locus, so long as every unit in that Detachment owes its allegiance to the same Chaos God" (Page 124 Codex: Chaos Daemons)

40k FAQ wrote:If I include Be’lakor in a Detachment in which every other unit owes its allegiance to the same Chaos God, does that Detachment benefit from the Daemonic Loci ability?
A: No, as Be’lakor does not owe allegiance to any one Chaos God.

The FAQ says that the daemon detachment does not benefit from the Daemonic Loci ability if Be’lakor is included that detachment.

This is the current RAW.

Unless they change the FAQ it will stay the RAW.


Im all about FAQs overruling everything, but in this case the FAQ is very wrong, because belakor does owe allegiance to every chaos god. He has all four keywords. Its very clear that this means old belakor, who didnt have any of the chaos god keywords.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Owing allegiance to all four gods is the same as “does not owe allegiance to one god”.

You’ve accidentally agreed with the old FAQ!

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Owing allegiance to all four gods is the same as “does not owe allegiance to one god”.


It is not. I can swear allegiance to A, B, C, and D, and still say yes when someone ask me if i swore allegiance to A.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Is the FAQ in question you are referring to the one revising the rules from the 8th Edition Chaos Daemons Codex?

The newest version of Be'lakor is not from that Codex and therefore the guidance given in the FAQ has no bearing on Be'lakor as listed in the Warzone Charadon supplement.

The FAQ is not a "FAQ for any instance of Be'lakor in any book or magazine he ever appeared in"; as written, it's a FAQ for the version of Be'lakor in Codex: Chaos Daemons specifically.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 p5freak wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Owing allegiance to all four gods is the same as “does not owe allegiance to one god”.


It is not. I can swear allegiance to A, B, C, and D, and still say yes when someone ask me if i swore allegiance to A.


Yes, but do you have allegiance to one god? That was the question being asked. No, you have four allegiances. Seriously, look at the words and don’t twist them in a vain attempt to be right. Amazing if you change the question the answer does too!


FWIW applying an FAQ written before the latest rules is bonkers, I don’t have a horse in that logic race. Simply pointing out the accidental agreement in your post.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/15 19:33:00


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You owe allegiance to four gods, not one god. If you ask the q "does B owe allegiance to a single god" , which has the same meaning, the answer is no.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




nosferatu1001 wrote:
You owe allegiance to four gods, not one god. If you ask the q "does B owe allegiance to a single god" , which has the same meaning, the answer is no.

In the end that's irrelevant.

The FAQ refers to a Be'lakor that has allegiance to no god(s).
The 4-god Be'lakor and the Chaos Daemons FAQ interact in no way what so ever. The first page of the FAQ has a headline that specifically says "Codex: Chaos Daemons".

I don't know of your local scene let people play models using older rules but if that were to happen and someone said "I want to play the 8th Ed. Codex version of Be'lakor" then sure, they would use the related FAQ to get the most up to date version of applicable rules for that model.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
The Daemonic Loci rules say "If your army is Battle-forged, all CHARACTERS in Chaos Daemons Detachments gain a Daemonic Locus, so long as every unit in that Detachment owes its allegiance to the same Chaos God" (Page 124 Codex: Chaos Daemons)

40k FAQ wrote:If I include Be’lakor in a Detachment in which every other unit owes its allegiance to the same Chaos God, does that Detachment benefit from the Daemonic Loci ability?
A: No, as Be’lakor does not owe allegiance to any one Chaos God.

The FAQ says that the daemon detachment does not benefit from the Daemonic Loci ability if Be’lakor is included that detachment.

This is the current RAW.

Unless they change the FAQ it will stay the RAW.


Im all about FAQs overruling everything, but in this case the FAQ is very wrong, because belakor does owe allegiance to every chaos god. He has all four keywords. Its very clear that this means old belakor, who didnt have any of the chaos god keywords.
Wrong or not, the FAQ still exists, and is still rules.

The current RAW is that the daemon detachment does not benefit from the Daemonic Loci ability if Be’lakor is included that detachment.

That aside, they will probably update the FAQ, so wait til then do to get the real answer, and not the mix and match answer we have now.


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JohnnyHell wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Owing allegiance to all four gods is the same as “does not owe allegiance to one god”.


It is not. I can swear allegiance to A, B, C, and D, and still say yes when someone ask me if i swore allegiance to A.


Yes, but do you have allegiance to one god? That was the question being asked. No, you have four allegiances. Seriously, look at the words and don’t twist them in a vain attempt to be right. Amazing if you change the question the answer does too!


FWIW applying an FAQ written before the latest rules is bonkers, I don’t have a horse in that logic race. Simply pointing out the accidental agreement in your post.


The question posed in the FAQ is NOT having allegiance to only one god.

"If I include Be’lakor in a Detachment in which every other unit owes its allegiance to the same Chaos God, does that Detachment benefit from the Daemonic Loci ability?"

It doesn't say "only" the same Chaos God, it's only worried about the one specific God the rest of the detachment has allegiance to. You can have allegiance to all four gods and have allegiance to the same Chaos God that the others in the detachment have.

But, you're right in that we shouldn't be trying to apply a FAQ for an 8th edition Be'lakor to a 9th edition datasheets. That way lies madness...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/15 20:34:23


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yes, but he also has allegiance to three other gods, so still doesn't allow you to get the locus as you have 3 other god key words in there.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, but he also has allegiance to three other gods, so still doesn't allow you to get the locus as you have 3 other god key words in there.


Does daemonic locus specify that you can worship only one god?
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 doctortom wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, but he also has allegiance to three other gods, so still doesn't allow you to get the locus as you have 3 other god key words in there.


Does daemonic locus specify that you can worship only one god?
"so long as every unit in that Detachment owes its allegiance to the same Chaos God" (Page 124 Codex: Chaos Daemons)" is implying only one by use of the wording "the same"


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 doctortom wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, but he also has allegiance to three other gods, so still doesn't allow you to get the locus as you have 3 other god key words in there.


Does daemonic locus specify that you can worship only one god?

It is required to owe allegiance, which is singular in nature, to same god

By definition, of the character, belakor in no way owes allegiance to the same god. It has four masters.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





nosferatu1001 wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, but he also has allegiance to three other gods, so still doesn't allow you to get the locus as you have 3 other god key words in there.


Does daemonic locus specify that you can worship only one god?

It is required to owe allegiance, which is singular in nature, to same god

By definition, of the character, belakor in no way owes allegiance to the same god. It has four masters.


Doesn't it have allegiance to all four Chaos Gods? (I would say that would be answered by whether Be'lakor has keywords for all four). That would mean that no matter which Chaos God you named, Be'lakor has allegiance to it
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter






As I understand it, he can choose to be of any "faction" so to speak, but it severely restricts his ability to include other daemons in his army. Whereas if he chooses unaligned, he can include as many daemons as he wants?

Also he seems like Smite bait for any army with even halfway decent Psykers. GK can drop him in a single turn if the rolls go off. That's a lot of burden on a list just to watch it get nuked on turn 2.
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

This is not about disciples of belakor, and no, belakor cant choose to be of any faction. This is about including belakor in a slaneesh daemon detachment.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 doctortom wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, but he also has allegiance to three other gods, so still doesn't allow you to get the locus as you have 3 other god key words in there.


Does daemonic locus specify that you can worship only one god?

It is required to owe allegiance, which is singular in nature, to same god

By definition, of the character, belakor in no way owes allegiance to the same god. It has four masters.


Doesn't it have allegiance to all four Chaos Gods? (I would say that would be answered by whether Be'lakor has keywords for all four). That would mean that no matter which Chaos God you named, Be'lakor has allegiance to it

He has allegiances to all four gods
If you ask "does he have allegiance to Slaanesh" it is an incomplete answer to say yes, or no. As you cannot say "yes", without equivocation, you do not get the locus
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Pardon me, by "any faction" I meant any Chaos god. Obviously I didn't mean Belakor could wind up in a Ad Mech Detachment.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

There’s a lot of basic grammar errors going on above, but again this whole thread is about trying to apply an FAQ written before new rules to those new rules. Agree with your opponent and move on if it’s actually an issue in your game, else there’s precious little point in a dogmatic to-and-fro here.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 JohnnyHell wrote:
There’s a lot of basic grammar errors going on above, but again this whole thread is about trying to apply an FAQ written before new rules to those new rules. Agree with your opponent and move on if it’s actually an issue in your game, else there’s precious little point in a dogmatic to-and-fro here.

Nothing to do with applying the faq, I'm going from the codex. The codex does not allow belakor to advance and change, as he does not owe allegiance to the same god
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm going to offer my opinion on this, for how I would rule it if I were running an event and had to answer this.


The rule for Daemonic Loci, not even the FAQ, specifically calls out Be'lakor as NOT owing its allegiance to any of the Chaos Gods. This seems, to me, to be a rule that prohibits Be'lakor from gaining an allegiance, even if at some point the daemon were to gain the keyword. Whilst the rule was written at a time that the datasheet did not contain the keywords, it now does, but this rule specifically naming Be'lakor as not owing any allegiance still stands.

Note, this is NOT a "fluff" thing, like how the FAQ could be so interpreted. This is a specific rule - Be'lakor does not have an allegiance to any Chaos god.

Furthermore, the rule for Daemonic Loci states that all the daemons in the detachment must owe allegiance to the same Chaos God. Whilst one can argue that this works in the one direction (Be'lakor shares at least 1 god keyword with the other units in the detachment), it does NOT work in the opposite direction (the other units in the detachment do not owe allegiance to the other 3). In this way, one can also say the answer to this question is "no", as all daemons do not owe allegiance to the same god.


So those are 2 reasons I can see that Be'lakor would not gain a Loci.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Since the intent is pretty obvious this is an easy one.

FAQ is old and does not apply to new Belakor since its an 8th edition FAQ and he is now a 9th edition model.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

 Yarium wrote:

The rule for Daemonic Loci, not even the FAQ, specifically calls out Be'lakor as NOT owing its allegiance to any of the Chaos Gods. This seems, to me, to be a rule that prohibits Be'lakor from gaining an allegiance, even if at some point the daemon were to gain the keyword. Whilst the rule was written at a time that the datasheet did not contain the keywords, it now does, but this rule specifically naming Be'lakor as not owing any allegiance still stands.


Citation please. I cannot find anything in the Loci rule which says that Belakor is not owing its allegiance to any of the Chaos Gods.

DAEMONIC LOCI

If your army is Battle-forged, all CHARACTERS in Chaos Daemons Detachments gain a Daemonic Locus, so long as every unit in that Detachment owes its allegiance to the same Chaos God. The Daemonic Locus gained depends upon their allegiance, as shown in the table below. For example, all CHARACTERS in a NURGLE Chaos Daemons Detachment gain the Locus of Virulence.


Lets look at the allegiance rule.

<ALLEGIANCE>
With the exception of Be’lakor, all Chaos Daemons owe allegiance to one of the four Chaos Gods. Most datasheets specify which Chaos God the unit owes allegiance to (e.g. a Great Unclean One has the NURGLE keyword, so owes allegiance to Nurgle). If a Chaos Daemons datasheet does not specify which Chaos God it owes allegiance to, it will have the <ALLEGIANCE> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must choose which of the Chaos Gods it owes its allegiance to. It then replaces its <ALLEGIANCE> keyword in every instance on its datasheet with the name of its patron Chaos God: KHORNE, TZEENTCH, NURGLE or SLAANESH.


The example is quite clear, the great unclean one has the NURGLE keyword, so he owes owes allegiance to NURGLE. Belakor has all four keywords, so he owes allegiance to all four gods.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think you just cited it with the allegiance rule itself stating that he doesn’t owe allegiance. You are welcome to your interpretation.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Eihnlazer wrote:
Since the intent is pretty obvious this is an easy one.

FAQ is old and does not apply to new Belakor since its an 8th edition FAQ and he is now a 9th edition model.

We're not using the faq

We're using the rules, which requires you owe a,legiance to the same chaos god. Belakor does not only owe allegiance to Nurgle, or slaanessh, but all four. So you cannot say he owes allegiance to slaanesh as your response is incomplete. You have to equivocate.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: