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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I had a win versus DE and noticed something.

Most DE lists have so little shooting. The power is all in melee. What better way to punish them with even basic flamers?

I'm not talking Aggressor style though. Those are worth shooting. I'm talking dreadnought fists and unit / vehicle upgrades.

Wyches are only a 6++. A couple basic flamers takes out 4 on overwatch. Wracks are not far behind.

*If* you can take out boats then charging becomes a lot more dangerous.

I almost feel like Tau should kick the gak out of DE on both fronts even with their old book.

Anyway just an observation. Nothing to run away with to skew yourself out of other matches, but I'm looking to trade out combis for combiflamers and lean in a little more.

Thoughts?


   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

It would depend on the army wielding the flamers.

Not all armies have good acces to flamers. Flamers on dreadnoughts etc. sounds like a plan if that is what is bothering you.

GSC mostly run hand flamers these days so they already do this.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

*waves*

Hi, DE player here...

Just about any shooting is good in taking down DE foot units. The trick is to bust them out of their vehicles before they're positioned to get out and charge.

So, armies that can spam out high volume of shots will do good, so long as you have enough AT to crack the vehicles.

Problem is, most armies don't do really well with the right balance of high volume of shots with enough ATs, so I would argue that for whatever army you're playing, when building a list where you know you'll face the meta-DE armies, focus on maximizing your Primary and Secondary objectives.


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

Raiders (which are plentiful in competitive DE lists) absorb even heavy flamers without batting an eye.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




I agree with this, but they can turn over watch off I think, at least for one unit, so ask beforehand; I think it’s a Cult of Strife thing, but it was used on my 9 flamer rubrics yesterday.

I have however noticed deep strike flamers are also very good for similar reasons. They can’t necessarily be taken out on their way in and they can nuke a squad per and still stand ready for overwatch. You just need to have a way to get them out of their transports and not in combat 1st turn, and this has been the impossible part for me with our 18-24” range and all the LoS/obscuring i need to cope with.
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Yeah, flamers arent gonna do a thing to DE (or most armies really). Since its restricted to 1/turn now, your opponent can just throw a suicide unit into your flamers and thank you for spending that CP.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 whembly wrote:
*waves*

Hi, DE player here...

Just about any shooting is good in taking down DE foot units. The trick is to bust them out of their vehicles before they're positioned to get out and charge.

So, armies that can spam out high volume of shots will do good, so long as you have enough AT to crack the vehicles.

Problem is, most armies don't do really well with the right balance of high volume of shots with enough ATs, so I would argue that for whatever army you're playing, when building a list where you know you'll face the meta-DE armies, focus on maximizing your Primary and Secondary objectives.



That's the thing - you put a lot of effort into cracking boats and then you're out of shots. Sprinkling a little promethium amongst front line units gives you a response and could save enough models down the line. Ultramarines could do really well with their extra overwatch - maybe toss in a Judiciar again...where did those poor guys go?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Yeah, flamers arent gonna do a thing to DE (or most armies really). Since its restricted to 1/turn now, your opponent can just throw a suicide unit into your flamers and thank you for spending that CP.


Yea there's always a risk they've got something to get in the way, but it just feels like there should be more flamers around and that people shouldn't shy away even if they're AP0. I hope Black Templars will change that up for marines a bit.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/20 20:51:19


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Mostly the problem is that I as a DE player have a whole host of tools to strategically deny you overwatch basically wherever.

Do I want to charge in with a raider first? Maybe a Succubus first? Maybe turn off overwatch with wych cult of strife? maybe charge in with incubi, or an archon? Maybe get really spicy and just break LOS from the unit I'm charging, cus y'know i'm just swimming in units that can fly, and oh hey there's a strat to move horizintally through terrain, thanks again wych cult of strife.

It's The Magineau Line of 40k strategy.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Yea they're a huge pain in the ass.

What's the bet on when the hell GW is going to give them another round of slapsies?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/20 19:47:20


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea they're a huge pain in the ass.

What's the bet on when the hell GW is going to give them another round of slapsies?



Beyond Certain, I would say! They've been at like 65% WR for the past 5 months or so and are still there after nerfs, and have recently taken back their Best Army In The Game throne from Admech after their nerfs. The only question is when, not if IMO
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




Ano... Sisters have been on the anti DE flamers for a while now. The only challenge is balancing that vs Ork/IH/IW lists...

   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Most DE lists have so little shooting. The power is all in melee.




They typically have lots of anti tank and very little anti infantry ranged weapons. That's because their anti infantry weapons suck while they can easily spam effective anti tank and sources of mortal wounds.

Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons and Autocannons (these are harder to spam though) are all good against Drukhari. Assault Cannons are good against Orks too.

 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

 Blackie wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


Most DE lists have so little shooting. The power is all in melee.




They typically have lots of anti tank and very little anti infantry ranged weapons. That's because their anti infantry weapons suck while they can easily spam effective anti tank and sources of mortal wounds.

Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons and Autocannons (these are harder to spam though) are all good against Drukhari. Assault Cannons are good against Orks too.


This is actually fairly true i think. Even before outside of disintegrators we didn't have a lot of long range dedicated anti-infantry shooting. Our anti-infantry shooting was mostly poison which often has low or no ap and anything dark eldar can throw at you with anti infantry shooting is unprotected and likely to be shot off in a turn (shredder scourge, possibly mandrakes). We can use disintegrators (not that i do because dark lances are just that good) but if we're facing hordes it's a waste of time and you're better off using melee infantry or reavers to counter them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/26 20:20:39


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