Switch Theme:

What niche could Primaris Scouts fulfill?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Enginseer with a Wrench






With the recent news of the new Primaris Neophytes for the Black Templars I have seen people talking about the possibility of a new Primaris Scouts unit in the future. And while I am not against the idea of such a unit it did get me think about what kind of role they could fulfill within an army, especially within a primaris army.

The original Scouts units generally fulfilled three unique roles:
They were a cheap chaff unit to fill out troop choices and excerpt board control on the cheap. However with their change to an Elites choice in 9th they don't fill this as well any more.
They could be deployed outside of your deployment zone to grab objectives early.
They could take sniper rifles to hit characters.

The problem is that the Space Marines, as in the Primaris, already have things that can do all of these:
9th seems to have gotten rid of cheap troop choices for the SM in this edition so I can't see them being this.
The Primaris have a lot on units capable of forward deployment, two of which are already troops.
They is another, very useful, sniper unit available to the SM.

So what else could they be used for?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 06:29:06


 
   
Made in se
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets




Sweden

There are too many primaris roles already. Space marines are saturated. The only role primaris scouts would add would be an aesthetic one.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

The new Neophytes sport 2A and 2W each. If this will translate over to Scouts, I could see them as cheapish units to do actions in the opponents half of the table, with enough punch and staying power to fight other trash backfield units / tag them.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

What role do scouts play?

If you made Primaris scouts why wouldn't they fulfill the same role?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Surely Infiltrators/Incursors are "Primaris Scouts"?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

They would be like budget phobos. Same roles, just not as good at them, but for less points.

If you want a screening unit, they will probably do the job OK. Assuming the price stays reasonable. Probably not with the 12” bubble you get from infiltrators, but at a lower cost (so more bodies per point, and space that way) Less bodies then old scouts, but more wounds

If they have the option for sniper rifles, and get the old ones, they make for a decent backfield camping unit, just tossing shots downrange. Eliminators are not troops either, so viable. You would probably get more bodies/guns with firstborn scouts, but not more wounds per point.

For backfield harassment/actions, they are probably going to be reivers who don’t pay for the fear stuff and with crappy gear. But if all you want is a guy to plant a flag somewhere or do a jig on the magic spot, why pay for stuff?

I suspect that Primaris-sized scouts are going to be one of the most cost effective way of getting wounds to the table. If you want bodies, old scouts are still probably going to be the go-to for a while. if you want them to do something effective, rather then sitting around, actual primaris marines are going to be more effective. But just filling space and taking actions? These guys might be it. They should have some mobility/deployment options, and a low cost.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






ccs wrote:
What role do scouts play?

If you made Primaris scouts why wouldn't they fulfill the same role?


Infiltrators/Reivers/Incursors say hi.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nevelon wrote:
They would be like budget phobos. .


Man I sure am glad that we finally are getting a dedicated kit to fulfil that vital unserved niche in the starved marine ecosystem instead of literally anything else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 11:27:06


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in es
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

Young heretics.

   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Nevelon wrote:
They would be like budget phobos. Same roles, just not as good at them, but for less points.

If you want a screening unit, they will probably do the job OK. Assuming the price stays reasonable. Probably not with the 12” bubble you get from infiltrators, but at a lower cost (so more bodies per point, and space that way) Less bodies then old scouts, but more wounds

If they have the option for sniper rifles, and get the old ones, they make for a decent backfield camping unit, just tossing shots downrange. Eliminators are not troops either, so viable. You would probably get more bodies/guns with firstborn scouts, but not more wounds per point.

For backfield harassment/actions, they are probably going to be reivers who don’t pay for the fear stuff and with crappy gear. But if all you want is a guy to plant a flag somewhere or do a jig on the magic spot, why pay for stuff?

I suspect that Primaris-sized scouts are going to be one of the most cost effective way of getting wounds to the table. If you want bodies, old scouts are still probably going to be the go-to for a while. if you want them to do something effective, rather then sitting around, actual primaris marines are going to be more effective. But just filling space and taking actions? These guys might be it. They should have some mobility/deployment options, and a low cost.


Budget wounds aren't something the marines need. They've got all the toys, from a design standpoint, what they need are weaknesses/limitations.

From a model perspective they definitely don't need slightly larger versions of e worst models in the range. Even if the CAD programs are advanced enough to show off power armor sockets in the arms.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 13:45:55


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Nevelon wrote:
They would be like budget phobos. Same roles, just not as good at them, but for less points.


That's basically Firstborn Scouts. I really don't think SM need to fill a niche between the current Scouts and Incursors/Infiltrators.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 the_scotsman wrote:
ccs wrote:
What role do scouts play?

If you made Primaris scouts why wouldn't they fulfill the same role?


Infiltrators/Reivers/Incursors say hi..


Ah, the rhetorical answered.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

Slipspace wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
They would be like budget phobos. Same roles, just not as good at them, but for less points.


That's basically Firstborn Scouts. I really don't think SM need to fill a niche between the current Scouts and Incursors/Infiltrators.


Nor do I. But I don’t think that’s going to stop GW from creating/filling it.

From a lore POV, updated scouts should happen. Besides trust/tradition, there is no reason all new marines are not primaris.
From a model POV, the old scouts are old, and pretty crappy looking. Snipers are passable, IMHO, but still dated.
From a game play POV, they are a marginal incremental step between units that already exist, for when you want something slightly better then a firstborn scout, but not as good as the phobos equivalent. They add nothing critical, and just add to an already bloated codex.

But if the models look cool, I’ll buy a squad.

   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

a_typical_hero wrote:
The new Neophytes sport 2A and 2W each. If this will translate over to Scouts, I could see them as cheapish units to do actions in the opponents half of the table, with enough punch and staying power to fight other trash backfield units / tag them.

Until we have codex in hand, I won't believe that the Neophytes are 2A and 2W each.

I know the leaked bit has been fairly accurate--but I'm thinking it refers to the Initiates, not the Neophytes for the 2A and 2W. But it's 99% possible that I'm wrong. I just am having a hard time seeing them at 2A and 2W, since up until now the lore was hardline that the Scouts were representative of Neophytes for both the Primaris and Firstborn styles of surgeries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nevelon wrote:

Nor do I. But I don’t think that’s going to stop GW from creating/filling it.

From a lore POV, updated scouts should happen. Besides trust/tradition, there is no reason all new marines are not primaris.
From a model POV, the old scouts are old, and pretty crappy looking. Snipers are passable, IMHO, but still dated.
From a game play POV, they are a marginal incremental step between units that already exist, for when you want something slightly better then a firstborn scout, but not as good as the phobos equivalent. They add nothing critical, and just add to an already bloated codex.

But if the models look cool, I’ll buy a squad.

Lorewise, they've been billed as the same thing up until now.

The BT Neophytes don't look that much bigger than the current Scouts to be honest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 16:32:40


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

They would fulfil the same role as current scouts. They would just be taller.

Wait, are there still people who think vanilla marines aren't going to get replaced eventually?

Old World Prediction: The Empire will have Clockwork Paragon Warsuits 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I mean...

* If you want them to be cheap, infiltrating, objective scorers, you're looking at firstborn scouts. Giving them better stats would (theoretically) mean giving them a higher points cost which would make them less cheap and thus less good at filling their niche.

* If you want something tougher and killier than a firstborn scout that infiltrates and does things like screening out enemy outflankers/deepstrikers... that's called an infiltrator.

* If you want a primaris sniper unit, those are called eliminators.

If you want to update the scout models (and not just make them eliminators), that's all well and good, but they should probably just use the current firstborn stats. Maybe even go back to being WS/BS 4+ to justify a price decrease so that they fill their niche of being relatively cheap even better.

If we were to pretend the in-universe fluff justifications for primaris never happened and imagine that primaris are just long-awaited truescale marines, infiltrators and eliminators make pretty good "scouts."
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





We had this whole talk awhile back but didn't we figure out most Primaris still started as old scouts ? This was awhile back now granted but I don't see how it makes sense to even have Primaris scouts.

Humans aren't born as Primaris people, so they'd still most likely need the testing as humans then see if the old path will kill them or not, then upgrade to Primaris right ? Unless I'm missing something if I am enlighten me. As I don't see how an even more severe body change wouldn't be more damaging to the body than the already difficult process of a human to a space marine they already have to endure just to become a scout.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goose LeChance wrote:
They would fulfil the same role as current scouts. They would just be taller.

Wait, are there still people who think vanilla marines aren't going to get replaced eventually?


One universal constant is everything fades to nothing, its a matter of when, why and how. Everyone can say firstborn marines will be gone, but if it doesn't happen for another 10 - 20 years I surely won't give a crap as I will most likely not be playing by then, I doubt most of us will by the 20 year mark, if the game lasts that much longer as is.

Eventually even that crazy old man on the street corner saying the end is nigh will inevitably be correct. Claiming the inevitable hardly makes anyone a visionary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 06:04:23


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 AngryAngel80 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Goose LeChance wrote:
They would fulfil the same role as current scouts. They would just be taller.

Wait, are there still people who think vanilla marines aren't going to get replaced eventually?


One universal constant is everything fades to nothing, its a matter of when, why and how. Everyone can say firstborn marines will be gone, but if it doesn't happen for another 10 - 20 years I surely won't give a crap as I will most likely not be playing by then, I doubt most of us will by the 20 year mark, if the game lasts that much longer as is.


(shrugs) I've been playing these games this long, I don't see why I'd quit just because I'll be 20 years older*.
And if the day ever comes that my 1st born are phased out? Then I'll just use them as short Primaris.
As for the game lasting that long? I fully expect it to outlive me.

*Though here in the near future I am going to have to speed up on the painting side of things before my eyesight worsens....
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





scouts are the same weather they're primaris or regular, per the lore, so there's no reason to do primaris scout. but just outright NEW scouts would be welcomed by pretty much everyone, I don't think anyone would argue that scouts are the pre-primaris Marine models that aged the poorest

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
scouts are the same weather they're primaris or regular, per the lore, so there's no reason to do primaris scout. but just outright NEW scouts would be welcomed by pretty much everyone, I don't think anyone would argue that scouts are the pre-primaris Marine models that aged the poorest


Nah. Fugly boxes on stumpy legs and dog-head terminators are still the ugly ducklings of 40K.
   
Made in ca
Enginseer with a Wrench






 AngryAngel80 wrote:
We had this whole talk awhile back but didn't we figure out most Primaris still started as old scouts ? This was awhile back now granted but I don't see how it makes sense to even have Primaris scouts.

Humans aren't born as Primaris people, so they'd still most likely need the testing as humans then see if the old path will kill them or not, then upgrade to Primaris right ? Unless I'm missing something if I am enlighten me. As I don't see how an even more severe body change wouldn't be more damaging to the body than the already difficult process of a human to a space marine they already have to endure just to become a scout.


It is more likely that the process to create a new Primaris doesn't involve creating a firstborn then upgrading to primaris, it is likely that they are created to be primaris from the beginning. The primaris have three extra gene-seeds that are likely added during the process rather then after it as the Magnificat super charges the rest and allows the aspirant to become a primaris after the process is finished rather then a firstborn. Because of this a primaris scout is likely to be larger and stronger then regular scouts. It is possible to do it after though that carries man risks.
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

The question here should be “what UNIQUE role would primaris scouts play?”.

They would fill the same role as always but it will be one primaris do already. Doesn’t mean they can’t fulfil that role.

I never like how scouts got used as cheap chaff. They are supposed to be the future of the chapter and always get wiped out. Not great for chapter longevity. In the fluff of my chapter they are “scouts” so don’t really see frontline duty so I don’t have any in my army.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Andykp wrote:


I never like how scouts got used as cheap chaff. They are supposed to be the future of the chapter and always get wiped out. Not great for chapter longevity. In the fluff of my chapter they are “scouts” so don’t really see frontline duty so I don’t have any in my army.


neither did GW, this is why they're elites now.

grnated they kinda suck so I could see GW taking the time to redesign them both rules wise and model wise


So my thought, scouts are, as others said, the future of the chapter. problem is that with no "fog of war" no "double blind" etc scouting in 40k is LAAAARGELY "useless"


by useless I mean scouts are just units that are deployed far ahead, to nab objectives early, there's little "find and report on the enemy" etc Tau Pathfinders are honestly one of the better scouts with their market lights IMHO, I don't think scouts should have marker lights, but maybe something that allows them to sacrifice an attack agaisnt a unit to grant missile launchers in another unit the indirect ability. that'd give scouts suddenly an intreasting specialist niche

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Somerdale, NJ, USA

From what I understand of the Primaris progression is this:

Human child/pre-teen -> start of implants -> becomes SM Scout -> full geneseed implanted/grows -> becomes Firstborn or Primaris.
Additionally more and more Firstborn "crossing the rubicon" to Primaris.

There really is no rhyme or reason for the "Primaris" scouts GW is releasing with the BT Primaris Crusader squad.

"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

- 8k /// - 5k /// - 5k /// - 6k /// - 6k /// - 4k /// - 4k 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Lord Clinto wrote:
From what I understand of the Primaris progression is this:

Human child/pre-teen -> start of implants -> becomes SM Scout -> full geneseed implanted/grows -> becomes Firstborn or Primaris.
Additionally more and more Firstborn "crossing the rubicon" to Primaris.

There really is no rhyme or reason for the "Primaris" scouts GW is releasing with the BT Primaris Crusader squad.
Primaris scouts are just scouts with full set of up to date implants. Nothing weird about it. That non-primaris scouts would even exist anymore is weird.

   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

Well gw clearly doesn't want marines having cheap filler in troops so I doubt they'll end up there.

That would mean they go to elites or fast attack and both of them are beyond rammed.

As others have said with infiltrators and incursers there's not really a need.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Canada

Roles can be reshuffled with the snap of a finger

Old World Prediction: The Empire will have Clockwork Paragon Warsuits 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Given that there is likely to be some form of "You may only take as many X as there is Y in your detachment" style rule with Neophytes, I doubt we will see them in any great numbers, especially in the way scouts were used. Besides, scouts only ever rose to prominence in 8th, because it was the cheapest way around the Troop tax. 9th completely abolished that, as now there is no value in cheap battalions.

I had heard they have access to a new special shotgun, that is essentially a 12" bolter, assault 2 S4 AP1 D1. According to Auspex tactis news at least.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Neophytes are part of the same squad as the Initiates in the BT setup, they're not a separate unit.

I remain unconvinced that they'll make a distinctive unit for everyone else. I could see Scouts getting a kit rework and the additional Wound...or they're using the fact that these guys seem to be wearing a stripped down Phobos kit to justify an additional Wound.
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

I can see the argument for scouts having one wound as they're not fully implanted.

But for space wolves it makes no sense their's are fully augmented so should of been a unique unit.

But even with two wounds I can't see them being taken.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Every Chapter had enough fully veteran Marines serving as training sergeants in the 10th to field something equivalent to Wolf Scouts. The Raven Guard would sometimes field squads from their 1st Company in Scout gear as kill teams to boot.

It was always dumb that SW were the only ones that had them.

Anyways, argument could be made that the extra Wound on Neophytes is going to come from them wearing slightly more protective armor but not to the point of being so heavily bulked up.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: