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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hello Everyone, well the codex has been out for a fair bit of time so its time to re-assess the question asked awhile back, Are Boyz competitive? Again, want to really emphasize this point, its not whether or not you like them, if they look good or if in your friendly games they are good, this is strictly in a competitive environment like Tournaments/GTs.

Here is a refresher of Every Major and GT Since September started where Orkz finished in the top 4.

Da Summer WAAAGH!: Orkz Finished 3rd Zero Boyz used.

Harbor Heresy: Orkz Finished 3rd. Zero Boyz used.

Alliance Open: Orkz Finished 3rd. 10 Boyz used (1 squad of 10)

Carnage: Orkz Finished 3rd. Zero Boyz used.

Iron Halo: Orkz Finished 2nd and 3rds. Zero Boyz used in both lists.

All told you have 5 events and 6 placings for Orkz, So 6 total lists and a grand total of 1 unit of 10 boyz. Also, Boyz can be taken in Mobz of up to 30 and yet there was only a single mob of 10. Likewise there weren't any Beast Snagga's either. There were however at least 2 units of MSU Grots used as 50pt Troop tax.

As a reminder. Boyz are now 9ppm. T5 with a 6+ save with a 5' movement. Based on how slow they are, its a requirement that they take some kind of transport to get across the board. Either an actual transport, or a Stratagem/psychic ability that puts them in charge range. The problem being that they changed "Ere We Go" from re-rolling 1 or both dice, to requiring you to re-roll both dice. That teamed with the loss of +1 to charge for Evil Sunz means that boyz are actually below a 50% chance to successfully charge from deepstrike/Da Jump. Furthermore, Weirdboyz were nerfed to lower their chance of successfully casting Da Jump. And finally, the KFF was nerfed to be a 6+ invuln instead of a 5+ and can only be buffed for a single turn before blowing up, and at a hefty price of 30pts instead of its old price of 20.

With all those factors and the tournament placings, I'm going to go ahead and say that Boyz are not competitive in the current tournament scene. If you disagree let me know.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion




North Carolina

...why did this need a second thread? Why am I commenting?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
...why did this need a second thread? Why am I commenting?


Well, if you read the other poll, I said that I would re-run the poll after people had time to play against the new Ork Boyz. The first poll was speculation based upon being able to see the new rules/stats. This poll is based on actual game play and tournament results. Its interesting to see if people predictions came true and if with new information, anyone will change their mind.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Yea, I don't think this is a real representation of the meta.

   
Made in bh
Longtime Dakkanaut





Boyz problem is that they don't have a role in the orks army.
They are overshadowed by the very good specialist ladz in everything they do, for a very reasonable extra cost.

They are troops though, and this usually gives you a defined role. Too bad that they are slow, and troops want to steal objectives.

Green tide is alive and well, and I'm fully convinced that it is the really competitive ork army. Buggies are terribly hindered by map composition to really be a tournament build. The only thing keeping that build together are the undercosted dakkajets.
But this green tide will be kommandos, stormboyz, burna boyz and so on. Which is perfectly fine and nice to see on the field. Probably better than just looking at 120 identical models.
The ork dex doesn't have the targeted buffs necessary to capitalize on the higher unit size of boyz, because if not, that would be their correct role.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Rukks also do well, because they don't have to move, really. They're the ones that need a bump ( Justice is served to Xenosmancer! ).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 17:09:25


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I feel "forest meta" is being undermined by the obvious placings buggies are making. Its possible this will fall off - but I find continued assertions on it "not working in tournaments" sort of curious.

In practice Squigbuggies, Dakkajets, Kommandos and Storm Boyz don't really care.

Getting say 4-5 Scrapjets around the table really isn't all that inconvenient. You don't get this massive traffic jam because everything else can sort of ignore the board (don't take this literally but hopefully you know what I mean).
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Most lists going all-in on scrapjets also tend to have them as bloodaxes which means they can plop them into reserves for free.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Rukks also do well, because they don't have to move, really. They're the ones that need a bump ( Justice is served to Xenosmancer! ).


I think people are drastically over-estimating Rukkas. For starters, its Main gun is 2D6 shots hitting on 4s, that averages 3.5 HITS a turn, the secondary gun is D6 shots, hitting on 5s AND its 18' range. It is completely feasible for the Main gun to not have to be moved often to get a good target, the secondary gun? not so much.

The Main gun btw is 3.5 hits at S5 -2AP and 2dmg. Against a Marine profile it does 2.3 wounds and against that 5+ save its 1.55 unsaved wounds for 3 dmg, or in 2 turns it will average 3 dead Marines. Split the difference, its killing 30pts of Intercessors a turn. That is bare minimum for what I would consider effective shooting. The secondary gun, assuming its within range, averages 1.16 hits a turn, 0.7 wounds and 0.5 unsaved wounds for 1 dead Marine on average every 2 turns. The only really good thing about the Rukka is its ignore LOS rule, but with its relatively short ranged guns it doesn't have the same benefits as other indirect fire weapons, it has to close the distance at least a bit.

Spoletta wrote:
Boyz problem is that they don't have a role in the orks army.
They are overshadowed by the very good specialist ladz in everything they do, for a very reasonable extra cost.

They are troops though, and this usually gives you a defined role. Too bad that they are slow, and troops want to steal objectives.

Green tide is alive and well, and I'm fully convinced that it is the really competitive ork army. Buggies are terribly hindered by map composition to really be a tournament build. The only thing keeping that build together are the undercosted dakkajets.
But this green tide will be kommandos, stormboyz, burna boyz and so on. Which is perfectly fine and nice to see on the field. Probably better than just looking at 120 identical models.
The ork dex doesn't have the targeted buffs necessary to capitalize on the higher unit size of boyz, because if not, that would be their correct role.


I believe that I am the biggest proponent of "Green Tide" right now in that my competitive list features 90 Infantry. Kommandos, Trukk Boyz and Stormboyz. I honestly don't feel like 90 infantry is "green tide" but that is just my opinion. The main thing is that the question was "Are Boyz competitive" not whether or not infantry is feasible or if Trukk Boyz are competitive. I think based upon tournament results that we have been seeing, the age of Orkz spamming troops is over at least for the near future.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea, I don't think this is a real representation of the meta.


What would be a better representation then? The point as stated already is whether or not they are competitive in a tournament environment. GTs or majors. How else would you measure their effectiveness besides looking at those exact types of tournaments and see what top placing ork lists are using?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, there are currently 11 players who have said that Ork boyz are competitive, and none have posted as to why they have that belief.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 20:37:16


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
I think people are drastically over-estimating Rukkas. For starters, its Main gun is 2D6 shots hitting on 4s, that averages 3.5 HITS a turn, the secondary gun is D6 shots, hitting on 5s AND its 18' range. It is completely feasible for the Main gun to not have to be moved often to get a good target, the secondary gun? not so much.

The Main gun btw is 3.5 hits at S5 -2AP and 2dmg. Against a Marine profile it does 2.3 wounds and against that 5+ save its 1.55 unsaved wounds for 3 dmg, or in 2 turns it will average 3 dead Marines. Split the difference, its killing 30pts of Intercessors a turn. That is bare minimum for what I would consider effective shooting. The secondary gun, assuming its within range, averages 1.16 hits a turn, 0.7 wounds and 0.5 unsaved wounds for 1 dead Marine on average every 2 turns. The only really good thing about the Rukka is its ignore LOS rule, but with its relatively short ranged guns it doesn't have the same benefits as other indirect fire weapons, it has to close the distance at least a bit.


Even just a 33% return would be good given you can do it from behind a polystyrene brick.

But you have Speedwaaagh for a turn to make them AP3 - which is now offering a 43% return on intercessors.
You have M10 - and a free advance in the Speedwaaagh turn. So I'm not convinced 18" really is all that short on the secondary gun. Further pushing up that already respectable return.
The mine won't come up very often but its another situational perk if your opponent does have any aggressive vehicles (I mean its 16" effective range - they don't have to be that aggressive.)

In short you have a unit which is hard for your opponent to remove early and has efficient offensive and defensive stats. Perhaps most importantly, due to being M10" with a range 36" ignoring LOS main gun, it can almost always just fire at whatever is most important to deal with every turn.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tyel wrote:


Even just a 33% return would be good given you can do it from behind a polystyrene brick.

But you have Speedwaaagh for a turn to make them AP3 - which is now offering a 43% return on intercessors.
You have M10 - and a free advance in the Speedwaaagh turn. So I'm not convinced 18" really is all that short on the secondary gun. Further pushing up that already respectable return.
The mine won't come up very often but its another situational perk if your opponent does have any aggressive vehicles (I mean its 16" effective range - they don't have to be that aggressive.)

In short you have a unit which is hard for your opponent to remove early and has efficient offensive and defensive stats. Perhaps most importantly, due to being M10" with a range 36" ignoring LOS main gun, it can almost always just fire at whatever is most important to deal with every turn.


IG have a host of IDF weapons that are the equal of the Rukka. Heavy Quad Launcher, Wyvern, Medusa Carriage, Basilisk, Earth shaker, Manticore, Deathstrike, Heavy Mortar Battery etc. Now they aren't exactly the same and some are less efficient and some are more efficient. But as an example, you can plop a Basilisk literally anywhere on the table now and it can hit ANYWHERE on the table. Its weapon is 240' range, Heavy D6 (roll 2 dice, take the highest) S9 -3 D3 dmg. it has easy access to a host of buffs and hits on 4s. The Quad launcher is the same price and averages 14 shots at S5 no AP 1dmg. Hell, for 10pts more an IG player can take 2 Heavy weapon squads and put out 6D6 shots at S4 no AP 1 dmg that are indirect fire and range 48. So if the value of the rukka is in its Indirect fire than these other units are almost as powerful. Difference being that rukka is required to be within 18' range of its target to get its 2nd gun to even fire, these can sit back at 48+ and fire all day hiding in a ruins.

The Rukka IS GOOD! but its not OP by any stretch. If you could take the Nitro upgrade on a squadron...maybe.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Fortunately kustom jobs can only go on single model units, but you won't find me supporting IG artillery much, either. IG mortars and manticores were some of the more abused models in 8th. I don't think Rukks are broken, but if there is no army that forces them out of lists then they will need a small bump.

   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





I mean, convenience is a thing too. One of the big reasons you don't see too many horde armies in tournies is that, well if you can get the same effect out of 3 models than 30. You'll save yourself some stress every time.

Can boyz be competitive? Probably, though it would be meta reliant. Can your opponent chop through 9 or 12 10 ork units of infantry? (that's what i'm assuming you'd want to take, there's not a huge amount of reason to take 30 model units atm.)

Unless you throw some distraction units at the enemy like bikers, commandos and trukkboyz your opponent is going to start chipping away at your army before you can start getting the axe into them. But the more distraction you have the less boyz you have, and once you go past a certain point you may as well just take a faster alpha strike list.

Oddly I think some other factions can do hordes better than us as an example i'll be facing off against a silver tide list this weekend. They have good shooting, durability, recusion of units/models and a handful of hammer/anvil units to do heavy lifting.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Fortunately kustom jobs can only go on single model units, but you won't find me supporting IG artillery much, either. IG mortars and manticores were some of the more abused models in 8th. I don't think Rukks are broken, but if there is no army that forces them out of lists then they will need a small bump.


"If there is no army that forces them out of lists" ....So because a unit is taken in competitive lists it needs to be nerfed? That is an argument based on a faulty premise to say the least.

Rukkas are countered the exact same way as the aforementioned IG Artillery. The only difference is that its significantly easier to counter due to the shorter range. All those IG units have 48+ inch range. hell, the basilisk is 240 the Rukka is 18 on 1/3rd of its main guns and only 36 on its #1 gun. To put that in better perspective, they are in EASY melta range turn 1 if the opponent wants to get their 18' gun in range.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:
"If there is no army that forces them out of lists" ....So because a unit is taken in competitive lists it needs to be nerfed?


No, I mean if nothing causes Orks to not choose Rukks ( or buggies in general ) then they affect the internal balance of the book and may create a skew for some opponents ( though less likely ).

   
Made in bh
Longtime Dakkanaut





When I said that they are heavily affected by terrain, I didn't mean only traffic jams. I meant that if there is a bit of dense terrain around, you are trying to alpha strike with a list that hits on 6s.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 03:02:05


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

When all the top placing Ork list are as likely to take 10 Boyz, 10 Gretchen, or pay CP to take neither, you know Boyz are not competitive.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Spoletta wrote:
When I said that they are heavily affected by terrain, I didn't mean only traffic jams. I meant that if there is a bit of dense terrain around, you are trying to alpha strike with a list that hits on 6s.


I have the feeling that those particular Ork lists want to go second.

   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





Spoletta wrote:
When I said that they are heavily affected by terrain, I didn't mean only traffic jams. I meant that if there is a bit of dense terrain around, you are trying to alpha strike with a list that hits on 6s.


Doesn't effect them enough to not be the top ork choice for tournaments though...

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




I think anybody comparing Rukks and IG indirect fire are short changing the Orks as a faction. 4+ to hit for Orks is major, it’s random shots, but there’s typically 2-4 of them to help spread that out. Doing something about them means being in reach of the rest of the Orks, with IG there aren’t a lot of counter attacks I’m scared of, most are just big blobs for tying things up nowadays. 36” range with vehicle movement leaves them the whole table at their will.

It’s another reason why Boyz just won’t compete vs trukkers, snaggas or Kommandos, having MSU allows them to go HAM on actions, a lot like Drukhari can. We can all just be glad their codex secondaries didn’t help that play style out much.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 15:18:53


 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter






Spoiler:
SemperMortis wrote:
Hello Everyone, well the codex has been out for a fair bit of time so its time to re-assess the question asked awhile back, Are Boyz competitive? Again, want to really emphasize this point, its not whether or not you like them, if they look good or if in your friendly games they are good, this is strictly in a competitive environment like Tournaments/GTs.

Here is a refresher of Every Major and GT Since September started where Orkz finished in the top 4.

Da Summer WAAAGH!: Orkz Finished 3rd Zero Boyz used.

Harbor Heresy: Orkz Finished 3rd. Zero Boyz used.

Alliance Open: Orkz Finished 3rd. 10 Boyz used (1 squad of 10)

Carnage: Orkz Finished 3rd. Zero Boyz used.

Iron Halo: Orkz Finished 2nd and 3rds. Zero Boyz used in both lists.

All told you have 5 events and 6 placings for Orkz, So 6 total lists and a grand total of 1 unit of 10 boyz. Also, Boyz can be taken in Mobz of up to 30 and yet there was only a single mob of 10. Likewise there weren't any Beast Snagga's either. There were however at least 2 units of MSU Grots used as 50pt Troop tax.

As a reminder. Boyz are now 9ppm. T5 with a 6+ save with a 5' movement. Based on how slow they are, its a requirement that they take some kind of transport to get across the board. Either an actual transport, or a Stratagem/psychic ability that puts them in charge range. The problem being that they changed "Ere We Go" from re-rolling 1 or both dice, to requiring you to re-roll both dice. That teamed with the loss of +1 to charge for Evil Sunz means that boyz are actually below a 50% chance to successfully charge from deepstrike/Da Jump. Furthermore, Weirdboyz were nerfed to lower their chance of successfully casting Da Jump. And finally, the KFF was nerfed to be a 6+ invuln instead of a 5+ and can only be buffed for a single turn before blowing up, and at a hefty price of 30pts instead of its old price of 20.

With all those factors and the tournament placings, I'm going to go ahead and say that Boyz are not competitive in the current tournament scene. If you disagree let me know.
IMO, Orkz never made it to 1st place because they didn't take a ton of Boyz so far taking zero to 1 squad of Boyz gets you 2nd place at best!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 19:28:22


Primaris fanboy: "NO, you can't just give old marines 2W, they're supposed to be squatted!" GW: "Heavy Bolters go brrrrrrrr"
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

If the argument for their uniqueness is spamming Wulfen and Thunderwolves, then it wasn't really a unique army to begin with whether you like it or not.
nervous sweating
Regal Hunt, A custom space wolf army: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/774993.page#10435681 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Actual data on the topic:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/ptoadv/calling_all_warbosses_an_analysis_of_orks_at_lgt/

TL;DR: There is an average of 1.32 units of boyz in competitive ork armies, allmost all of them slugga/choppa and almost all of them are small units. About half of them seem to be trukkboyz.
Both storm boyz and kommandoz each outnumber the total amount of boyz played.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 06:29:02


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

It's shocking how many big meks with KFFs were used in those lists, and how little koptas (I mean everyone has the AOBR ones!).

Anything else is exactly as expected. Maybe warboss on bikes are a bit low on the model count but they're FW models or available only through conversions.

Other good units that have low model count are yet to be released as proper official kits, when they do they're going to show up more frequently.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 07:01:06



 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





As LGT has banned the beastboss on squigosaur, otherwise the premier caller of waaagh (doesn’t appear to have stopped 3 people from trying to be kunnin and sneak one in though)




Is that "kunnin, but brutal" or "brutal, but kunnin"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
It's shocking how many big meks with KFFs were used in those lists


Definitely needed. Some armies alpha strike the pants off buggies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/23 14:27:33


   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Wait... they banned a legal unit? WTF?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wait... they banned a legal unit? WTF?


The model isn't officially available in time so to be fair to those without conversion skills or something, I guess.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




why would they ban that?
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Read their tournament pack. They blanket banned unreleased models as you can't build a proxy with the same dimensions as a model with unknown/speculative dimensions.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Oh, that makes sense.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Rihgu wrote:
Read their tournament pack. They blanket banned unreleased models as you can't build a proxy with the same dimensions as a model with unknown/speculative dimensions.
It's a little anal retentive or perhaps paranoid and anti-creativity*, but I'm relieved to see it's "unreleased models" and not "that one model specifically".



*Something truly hard to imagine from people who like symmetrical terrain set-ups. (/s)


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 16:25:24


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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