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Made in gb
Been Around the Block





Hi all, so i'm getting some IG today, as i've always wanted some Cadians.

I've also seen they're now called astra miliatarum and I've also seen Militarum Tempestus which also look like a cool group.

are they the same thing? Or are they a different army within the same race i.e. you normally collect one or the other? Kinda like Catachan etc.
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Mira Mesa

The Tempestus are half-way to being their own army. Their units are part of the Imperial Guard, so you can add them to an army with regular units, but they also get their own special rules if you take them by themselves. If you want to collect Tempestus, you should probably play them by themselves, but a squad or two won't hurt in an Imperial Guard army if you're just playing casually.

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Made in gb
Been Around the Block





ahh ok. I'll stick to cadians then. Don't want to expand before i've even started ..... well.... for now
   
Made in es
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Tempestus aka stormtroopers are a great addition imho… don’t hesitate if you want to collect them.

   
Made in gb
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






Astra Militarum is the copyrightable version of Imperial Guard, they're interchangeable even within GW works.
Scions are Stormtroopers that got a makeover and some new toys. They can be played as their own army or be included in a Guard army (though they do not gain any Regimental benefits).
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Think of them like an elite unit for your Imperial Guard which can also be fielded as their own army if you like.

Imperial Guard are all about combined arms, so having a unit of Scions is not a bad idea if you want.

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Made in gb
Storm Trooper with Maglight





A recent rumour (take with as much salt as you feel is appropriate) stated that the Cadian Kasrkin will be making a comeback early in 2022.

Of course there's no reason why you can't collect regular Cadians, get a squad or two of Tempestus Scions to go with them, and then collect some Kasrkin when they're released. Might be worth sticking to regular Cadians for now and seeing how the Kasrkin pan out though.

Personally I love the old Kasrkin metal models (still use them in my distinctly non Cadian army) so hope that the rumour is true.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

If Kasrkin are coming back, it won't be as something that can just be a stand-in for Scions.

Just so we're clear. The OG Kasrkin rules from the 13th Black Crusade book flatout disallowed the actual Kasrkin unit from functioning like Stormtroopers.
   
Made in es
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Karskins… I have some. They were popular models. Peeps in my gaming group raved about them. Interesting rumor ! So sure, if not sold on scion aesthetic and no hurry then wow, yeah, maybe waiting is good. Scions shouldn’t be going away anytime soon.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kanluwen wrote:
If Kasrkin are coming back, it won't be as something that can just be a stand-in for Scions.

Just so we're clear. The OG Kasrkin rules from the 13th Black Crusade book flatout disallowed the actual Kasrkin unit from functioning like Stormtroopers.


If the past said all of the future we'd never be surprised by anything any more. They will most likely function different than scions but they could also just be a different scion faction. So they could very well just be stand ins for scions albeit their own regiment of them, like maybe they can use the cadian reg traits because they are super skilled cadians ? We just don't know what we don't know. I'd find it odd for them to be totally different from scions and I would bet plenty would use them as stand ins for scions either way, I already do.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Or y'know, they're a Cadian exclusive unit...?

There's been rumors of Regiment Supplement Books for awhile now. Given that we seem to be getting DKoK with "signature units" (Grenadiers and Rough Riders both show up in the artwork pushed for them and are rumored), it's not wildly beyond the pale.
   
Made in gb
Storm Trooper with Maglight





The Kasrkin of old were equipped the same way as Tempestus Scions (Storm Troopers), carapace armour, hotshot lasguns and the same special weapon options. If I remember correctly (I might not) Kasrkin couldn't deepstrike, so that's at least one point of difference.

I think the Kasrkin models replaced the Storm Trooper models, GW didn't sell both at the same time. My memory might be failing me again on this point though.

However as mentioned just because things were done one way before doesn't necessarily mean that it will be the same going forward. I'd be surprised if GW stop selling Tempestus Scions when the Kasrkin are released. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.
   
Made in gb
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






The Stormtroopers were still available but as really small units and IIRC the special weapons were all separate as well. The 5th Ed Guard Codex even just used them as an example of Stormtrooper minis because of how similar they were.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

El Torro wrote:
The Kasrkin of old were equipped the same way as Tempestus Scions (Storm Troopers), carapace armour, hotshot lasguns and the same special weapon options. If I remember correctly (I might not) Kasrkin couldn't deepstrike, so that's at least one point of difference.

No Deep Striking or Infiltrating, and Kasrkin were Troops choices rather than Elites, only available within the Cadian Shock Troop list in C: EoT.

When the Doctrines book followed up, Kasrkin were the suggested representation for "Grenadiers" doctrine in a Cadian army, which allowed for 3x Stormtrooper Squads as Troops--again with no DS or Infiltration.

I think the Kasrkin models replaced the Storm Trooper models, GW didn't sell both at the same time. My memory might be failing me again on this point though.

They did sell both at the same time. The 'gas mask' styled stormtroopers remained on sale after the Kasrkin were pulled from sale.


However as mentioned just because things were done one way before doesn't necessarily mean that it will be the same going forward. I'd be surprised if GW stop selling Tempestus Scions when the Kasrkin are released. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.

The rumored Kasrkin release is tied to a Cadian release, not an Imperial Guard release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
The Stormtroopers were still available but as really small units and IIRC the special weapons were all separate as well.

They were available the same way that Kasrkin were for awhile:
Blister of 3 random Hellgun poses, blister of 2 Special Weapons packaged together, and then a Sergeant blister.
The 5th Ed Guard Codex even just used them as an example of Stormtrooper minis because of how similar they were.

Spoiler:

This was the 5th Edition C: IG.

It does not actually show a single Stormtrooper model in it. There's only two pieces of artwork showing them:
Both of which showcase this style:
Spoiler:


Fun fact! The artwork of the Valkyrie from the 5E codex? With those Stormtroopers disembarking?
Still in the Guard codex! It's had the darker parts lightened up a bit, showing off that the Stormtrooper design is actually closer to the Scions than people like to believe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/25 20:13:51


 
   
Made in gb
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






Thats the artwork not the minis page though, so yes thats the Stormtrooper models in the artwork but I'm fairly certain they were used in the miniatures gallery.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Codex: IG from 5th Edition(aka: Why I Dislike Robin Cruddace Intensely) does not feature Stormtroopers at all in the miniatures gallery.

Pages 74-77 are Cadian Shock Troops. Only non-Cadian model is the Power Sword+Powerfist Commissar(shown on p77).
Pages 78- 81 are Catachan Jungle Fighters. No non-Catachan models shown here!
Pg 82 is Mordians, Tallarn, Armageddon, and Valhallan Ice Warriors--each one gets a row of 5 models(except Mordians who technically get 4 since they have a Heavy Weapons Team!). No Stormtroopers here!
Pg 83 is Vostroyan Firstborn. No non-Vostroyan models.
Pgs 84-85 are not labeled as anything. They show a Steel Legion Chimera, a Valhallan Leman Russ, a Vostroyan Chimera, a Valkyrie in dark green, the Bolt Pistol aiming Commissar, and Techpriest Enginseer (I want to say pose #2? has an axe that's squared off with the 'cog teeth' pattern rather than the other metal Enginseer who had a rounded off axe with the 'cog teeth' patterning!). No Stormtroopers.
Pg 86 shows an Armageddon, Vostroyan, and Cadian Sentinel(Armageddon+Vostroyan are Armoured while Cadian is Scout) and a Mordian Hellhound.
Pg 87 shows a Tallarn Chimera, Vostroyan Basilisk, and the other Techpriest.
The final page of the gallery is 88. It shows:
Commissar Yarrick, Commissar with Plasma Pistol+Power Sword(it's a pose that has the sword raised to strike and pistol aimed slightly to the side whilst running), Lord Commissar model, Commissar with P. Fist and Book.
Astropath, Officer of the Fleet, Sanctioned Psyker(now called "Wyrdvanes"--it's the Cadian Sanctioned Psyker model from the initial Cadian releases), Primaris Psyker, and Master of Ordnance.
Ratling Snipers(the whole set of them).
Ogryn Bone 'Ead, and two Ogryns with Ripper Guns(the metals that came out done up in a pseudo-Cadian styling).

There are zero Stormtroopers in the book in a model format.

For what it's worth? There's always been unsubstantiated rumours that the Scion design started not long after that book and they were intended to be the "new face" of Stormtroopers--but the Vostroyan sales slowed it down.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





They are the same and do have an element of interchangeability however personally I like to simply use my Cadians and field a good old fashioned Guard army with lots of bodies and lots of tanks.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

I mean, they are the same...if you really don't know the lore behind Kasrkin I guess?
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






If there truly will be a new 'Kaskrin' kit, I suspect it will actually be a veteran guardsman kit. They currently do not have a dedicated kit that would come with all their options. So according to GW's current policy, we will probably either get a kit with guardsmen with shotguns or the shotguns will be removed as an option in the rules.

   
Made in gb
Storm Trooper with Maglight





The rumour which we're all discussing states (at least the version of the rumour I've read states this):

"Astra Militarum with veteran-style Cadians. Two new regiments are also in the works. New Kasrkin and new vehicle, designed to fit between the Leman Russ and the Baneblade."

That implies that there will be a Cadian veteran box (hopefully with shotguns as an option, cos I really don't want to see that removed from the Codex) and a Kasrkin box.

The comment about two new regiments is interesting. I guess Krieg are one of the two. I'd be surprised if the other one had its own unique sprues, would expect something more like another greatcoat regiment and a Death Korps box would be able to build either.

I guess some people would be interested in the rumour about a tank that's bigger than a Leman Russ but smaller than a Baneblade. Personally I think IG have enough tanks as it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/26 09:46:38


 
   
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Springfield, VA

I bet the GW tank will be a Malcador/Macharius ish thing (given those are already the tanks that do literally that) but 110% better in every way, invalidating my current collection if I want to run IG tanks.

Or maybe not, in which case they will be crap and not worth purchasing for competitive play...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/26 12:02:55


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






I wish the would just make plastic Macharius. It is easily the best looking IG tank.

In any case, I can't wait to see what the IG update brings.

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Fun fact! The artwork of the Valkyrie from the 5E codex? With those Stormtroopers disembarking?
Still in the Guard codex! It's had the darker parts lightened up a bit, showing off that the Stormtrooper design is actually closer to the Scions than people like to believe.




The old school Stormtroopers look nothing like the new Scions.

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Jarms48 wrote:
Fun fact! The artwork of the Valkyrie from the 5E codex? With those Stormtroopers disembarking?
Still in the Guard codex! It's had the darker parts lightened up a bit, showing off that the Stormtrooper design is actually closer to the Scions than people like to believe.




The old school Stormtroopers look nothing like the new Scions.


You know your images didn't work, right?


This art piece is from the 5E codex, where it was published in black+white.
It was reused in C: Astra Militarum (2013), where it was published in colour...with the faceplates darkened.
And the image shown there? That's from C: Astra Militarum (2017)...where it was used to represent Scions disembarking from a Valkyrie.




They are a lot closer than you're making them out to be. The Scions have a bit more "grimdark" to them and a bit more plating(notably on the thighs)
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Yeah I mean the new Scions strike me as an imaginative redesign of the original kit.

(Which is actually how I feel about primaris too. See? I like new things!)
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

El Torro wrote:
The rumour which we're all discussing states (at least the version of the rumour I've read states this):

"Astra Militarum with veteran-style Cadians. Two new regiments are also in the works. New Kasrkin and new vehicle, designed to fit between the Leman Russ and the Baneblade."

That implies that there will be a Cadian veteran box (hopefully with shotguns as an option, cos I really don't want to see that removed from the Codex) and a Kasrkin box.

Just for clarity's sake...

There was more to the Cadian bit. It wasn't "veteran box", but rather that they'll have a more veteran look. The description given mentioned them looking more "nomadic", with hoods and ponchos and raggedy uniforms. It comes really close to what is on pg 23 of the Kill team Core Book.

The comment about two new regiments is interesting. I guess Krieg are one of the two. I'd be surprised if the other one had its own unique sprues, would expect something more like another greatcoat regiment and a Death Korps box would be able to build either.

Yeah...I'd expect Tallarn as the next "new regiment". There's art that looks like a redesign of them in the Kill Team Octarius booklet.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




They are a lot closer than you're making them out to be. The Scions have a bit more "grimdark" to them and a bit more plating(notably on the thighs)


They're really not. The new Scions just look derpy as hell. They're wearing medieval plate armour, have those stupid looking motorbike helmets, and those exposed cables from their guns. Which would both restrict movement and have a greater risk of the gun failing.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/8/8e/43rd_Iotan_Dragoons.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160826050500

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/7/73/Imperial_Stormtrooper_guard.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130208042124

The old school stormtroopers were awesome. Covered in webbing, grenades, ammo pouches. They were ready for combat. They looked incredibly realistic and believable.

Edit: I don't know why the images don't work for me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/27 01:00:49


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Jarms48 wrote:
They are a lot closer than you're making them out to be. The Scions have a bit more "grimdark" to them and a bit more plating(notably on the thighs)


They're really not. The new Scions just look derpy as hell. They're wearing medieval plate armour, have those stupid looking motorbike helmets, and those exposed cables from their guns. Which would both restrict movement and have a greater risk of the gun failing.

So does having a hotshot lasgun, period, if you go off the fluff. The lore mentions that the backpack is a cooling system, which can be detached if necessary.



The old school stormtroopers were awesome. Covered in webbing, grenades, ammo pouches. They were ready for combat. They looked incredibly realistic and believable.

Yeah, and the Scion models can be modeled as such. You could also look at the actual art of them rather than color plates intended to show off the color schemes.

Edit: I don't know why the images don't work for me.

Because it's trying to tell you to stop using the fan wiki that has people's fanart in there too.

It has to do with their setup, in real talk. I dunno why. It's not great as a source in any regards. Heck, they have the introductory piece of Kasrkin art listed as a "Kill Squad Trooper" for a PDF!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/27 01:28:20


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






For the original question, start slow, and pick out the things you like. GW swings the pendulum too hard between editions to be chasing the meta.

If going Cadian, you might want to glance at ebay and see if people are selling lots for fairly cheap, the kit has been around close to 20 years, and they recently jacked the price up on it (they did also add a sprue with some extra heads and special weapons).

The Start Collecting Scions kit is actually not half bad, nets you a decent amount of bang for your buck, though the Commissar that gets shoved into every guard box brings diminishing returns. Bonus points that for just a tiny bit of effort the Scion heads fit on regular Cadian bodies if you want to jazz things up a bit.

All in all though, start simple and slow, its easy to overwhelm yourself starting a Guard army, at which point basically nothing will get done.



On the topic of new vs old scions/stormtroopers. The new kit does harken back to the older ones - the berets are a callback to the mid 90s kit, and some of the design cues follow the early 2000s ones, but it has its own distinct look. Its been forever since I saw the 90s ones, but they were more a standard military uniform with beret head, the 2000s ones were more tacticool, and the new scions kit is more medieval bent.
   
 
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