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If this isnt the case, how does a process with a 60%ish sucess rate manage to work on EVERY named character?

Have played 40k since they were called the Imperial Army. 6k IG 10k Nids 2k GSC 
   
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Because it's a pretty dumb way for a named character to die.

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 ImperialArmy wrote:
If this isnt the case, how does a process with a 60%ish sucess rate manage to work on EVERY named character?


....god damn this is rapidly becoming my favorite thing.

Say, d'you know what happens when any other faction besides space marines gets a new kit they're not a huge fan of? Like, let's say I play orks and I like buggies being these 35ppm simple cheap little vehicles with just a big shoota or a scorcha on them, and GW replaces them with a half-dozen monopose 100pt vehicles with loads of diferent weapons?

We just have to deal with it.

I'm sorry GW made your marines slightly taller and with different kneepads.

Yes.

You've figured it out, from the way they keep replacing the models of the characters with the new versions that have the different kneepads, and they keep making "New" primaris units that are basically the same that fill the same roles as existing marine units. They are replacing marine units with new kits.

You're a very smart boy.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Because people would be mad if their special character died.

There really isn't an option that will please everyone, so it's better to allude to irrelevant characters being killed in surgery, but the ones that substantial amounts of people have an attachment to get to stay, and we get cool new sculpts.


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Because you don't kill bankable characters/concepts, or at the very least shouldn't.
How are players of Chapter X going to react if the only character their faction has is killed off? Ask anyone who plays an army that didn't keep X unit or Y character from a previous edition into a different one and you'll get your answer.
That and obviously Primaris are intended to replace Firstborn at some point, just as any new thing is intended to replace an old thing.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 ImperialArmy wrote:
If this isnt the case, how does a process with a 60%ish sucess rate manage to work on EVERY named character?


I mean... we all know that's obviously the case and always have, but also....

Lies, dirty lies, and statistics. Practically speaking 60% assumes a huge sample size, but that doesn't mean its 3+ roll on each marine. One would have to assume there's factors at play and weaker candidates fail more often than stronger ones. Anyone strong enough to reach named character status probably has very very little chance of dying from the process, while scouts probably fail something like 80%+.
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






There was a time where Eldrad and Tycho were dead, but people kept playing them and they kept being in the lists/having rules.

Eldrad's death got retconned out, I don't know if the same is true of Tycho, but people didn't seem super bothered by that. The only characters I can think of that still have rules despite being out of the narrative are Ursarker Creed and Color Sergeant Kell. Not sure if there was/is outrage around that.

Let's kill off some named Space Marines! Let's fail to cross the Rubicon! Let's gooooo! (Maybe they could kill off Tycho again, if he's alive!)

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Where do you get 60% from? I thought it was much lower.

   
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your mind

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Rihgu wrote:
There was a time where Eldrad and Tycho were dead, but people kept playing them and they kept being in the lists/having rules.

Eldrad's death got retconned out, I don't know if the same is true of Tycho, but people didn't seem super bothered by that. The only characters I can think of that still have rules despite being out of the narrative are Ursarker Creed and Color Sergeant Kell. Not sure if there was/is outrage around that.

Let's kill off some named Space Marines! Let's fail to cross the Rubicon! Let's gooooo! (Maybe they could kill off Tycho again, if he's alive!)


Aun'Va has rules but is also canonically dead.

A few older Space Marine characters went the way of the Dodo or were drastically changed. 3rd Edition's Captain Cortez hasn't technically been listed as KIA, but has been missing in both lore and rules for a long time. The Salamanders Chaplain Xavier was killed off in a heroic stand against the Drukhari. Sargent Lysander was promoted to Captain and given shiny Terminator Armour and a giant hammer.

But still, aslo yes, lets kill off some named space marines. Maybe the Rubicon Primaris isn't the best way to do that, but I totally agree that some should die off. I mean, GW is fine with discontinuing regular units from time to time (RIP Pariahs), so why not regular characters?

To answer the OP's comment, Plot Armour. If crusade is to be believed, it is about 1 in 6 that die, though that could just be from the requirement of having to roll a D6.


17210 4965 3235 5350 2936 2273 1176 2675
1614 1342 1010 2000 960 1330 1040  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Roboute Guilliman was dead for most of his career. He got better.
   
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 ImperialArmy wrote:
If this isnt the case, how does a process with a 60%ish sucess rate manage to work on EVERY named character?
Turns out heroic characters are heroic...
   
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 ImperialArmy wrote:
If this isnt the case, how does a process with a 60%ish sucess rate manage to work on EVERY named character?

Because, 60% of the time it works all the time.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





As an alternative, you could just stop distinguishing between firstborn and primaris. Their statlines are almost the same at this point. The biggest differences are their armour and weapons, and you could probably reasonably upsize/downsize those to fit a slightly taller or shorter marine.

So the difference between a tactical squad with a plasma gunner and an intercessor squad with an attached hellblaster for support becomes moot. All your old scout models are now members of their chapters' eliminator and infiltrator squads.

At that point, you could just quietly update the firstborn character models (or not) without making a thing of it.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Wyldhunt wrote:
As an alternative, you could just stop distinguishing between firstborn and primaris. Their statlines are almost the same at this point. The biggest differences are their armour and weapons, and you could probably reasonably upsize/downsize those to fit a slightly taller or shorter marine.

So the difference between a tactical squad with a plasma gunner and an intercessor squad with an attached hellblaster for support becomes moot. All your old scout models are now members of their chapters' eliminator and infiltrator squads.

At that point, you could just quietly update the firstborn character models (or not) without making a thing of it.


I've been saying "just treat them as resculpts" almost since they came out...

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 ImperialArmy wrote:
Primaris marines replacing firstborn


God, I hope so.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

The more pertinent question is how their Chaos contemporaries keep getting bigger without the Rubicon Primaris.

 the_scotsman wrote:
You're a very smart boy.
I fail to see with what any of your post has to do with what ImperialArmy said, and I certainly don't think that the above was necessary.

You don't have to go right for the jugular, you know?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/29 03:29:18


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 Flipsiders wrote:
 ImperialArmy wrote:
Primaris marines replacing firstborn


God, I hope so.
God I hope not.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Wyldhunt wrote:
As an alternative, you could just stop distinguishing between firstborn and primaris. Their statlines are almost the same at this point. The biggest differences are their armour and weapons, and you could probably reasonably upsize/downsize those to fit a slightly taller or shorter marine.

So the difference between a tactical squad with a plasma gunner and an intercessor squad with an attached hellblaster for support becomes moot. All your old scout models are now members of their chapters' eliminator and infiltrator squads.

At that point, you could just quietly update the firstborn character models (or not) without making a thing of it.


Even if GW doesn't do it like that and puts Firstborn to legends I think that's exactly what the players will do once GW decides to retire Firstborn.
   
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^Source?

Given the leaked Horus Heresy images with beakies my bet would re-tooled Firstbon.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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 Insectum7 wrote:
^Source?

Given the leaked Horus Heresy images with beakies my bet would re-tooled Firstbon.



even without it, the "core" firstborn kits are all pretty new, no reason to retire them anytime soon

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Edmonton, Alberta

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BrianDavion wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Source?

Given the leaked Horus Heresy images with beakies my bet would re-tooled Firstbon.



even without it, the "core" firstborn kits are all pretty new, no reason to retire them anytime soon


^I agree for the most part, although the amount of "I can't stand the appearance of Firstborn kits now that I've seen Intercessors" I've seen feels indicative of opportunity. The marine model line is in a weird spot. . .

Buuuut friggin Eldar still be on 20 year old sculpts in some cases. . .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 05:58:30


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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 jaredb wrote:
Because it's a pretty dumb way for a named character to die.


I honestly wouldn't mind. It's pretty reasonable and mature. It makes the universe feel more relatable.
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I don't expect that first born power armour Space Marines will see any new releases ever again for 40k. I think that 30k might be the domain of Marks 2 through 7 from now on, before FW could make a Mk.8 kit*. Or a plastic Tech-Marine/Thunderfire Cannon.

But the chances of there being another Space Marine Tactical/Assault/Devastator/Command/etc. squad that wasn't Primaris? I see that as unlikely. And over time I think Chapter-specific ones will be replaced. Not specifically Chapter-specific versions of regular squads (although that has already happened with the BA Tactical Squad), but more things like Sanguinary Guard will suddenly all be Primaris in the same way that Sword Brethren are about to be all Primaris.

I could see them transitioning Terminators (and Land Raiders) and hand-waving the argument that the armour now works with Primaris Marines ever since Cawl *something something* 10,000 year plan in the making *something something* complete! And a new range of Scouts that are slightly bigger, basically using whatever we're about to get for BTs but de-BT-ing the kit and adding in a few extra weapons, and now those Scouts go on to become Primaris Marines once they've finished their training.

Then the First Borns become Legends in the next Marine Codex for 10th (probably to be released a few days from now), and we say goodbye to iconic aspects of 40k - Rhinos, Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, Devastators and Angry Washing Machine-pattern Dreads.

*Yes I know the DW are technically Mk.8.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Buuuut friggin Eldar still be on 20 year old sculpts in some cases. . .
Soon...
Spoiler:

We hope.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/09/29 06:16:16


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hobojebus wrote:
Where do you get 60% from? I thought it was much lower.


Pretty sure Cawl told Calgar it was only a 61.6% survival rate.

Even if GW doesn't do it like that and puts Firstborn to legends I think that's exactly what the players will do once GW decides to retire Firstborn.


I think it's going to be a very slow phase out. Over multiple editions. They're 100% going to split the generic Space Marine codex into codex First-born & codex Primaris.

They're not going to stop adding new Primaris models. There's no way they're going to keep cramming more datasheets after seeing that current codex. There's too much bloat already.

That First-born codex will slowly shrink as their molds wear out and units will go to Legends. If First-born are lucky they might slowly update them with new HH models and units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 06:19:17


 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't expect that first born power armour Space Marines will see any new releases ever again for 40k.

I can't see plastic releases for '30k' Not being playable in 40k. Every unit in the Battle for Calth set had 40k rules, and the "Horus Heresy" Mk 3 and 4 kits were built to Tactical Squad format.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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 Flipsiders wrote:
 ImperialArmy wrote:
Primaris marines replacing firstborn


God, I hope so.


You're delusional. GW wants SM players to re-buy their own army over and over again. So in a few years they'll launch a new line of model. The only question is: are those new marines gonna be 3.0 dudes with even better profile than gravis armour or a firstborn revamp? The latter seems more likely, GW is even planning on revamping old WHFB armies on square bases with The Old World.

8-10 years after the release of 8th edition and a huge portion of SM players will not have a single firstborn dude, then it would be a great opportunity to revamp them and unlike some hypothetical new marines 3.0 they will also have the nostalgia card to play.

 
   
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Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
 ImperialArmy wrote:
Primaris marines replacing firstborn


God, I hope so.


You're delusional. GW wants SM players to re-buy their own army over and over again. So in a few years they'll launch a new line of model. The only question is: are those new marines gonna be 3.0 dudes with even better profile than gravis armour or a firstborn revamp? The latter seems more likely, GW is even planning on revamping old WHFB armies on square bases with The Old World.

8-10 years after the release of 8th edition and a huge portion of SM players will not have a single firstborn dude, then it would be a great opportunity to revamp them and unlike some hypothetical new marines 3.0 they will also have the nostalgia card to play.


I don't think he's delusional dude. Though your little conspiracy theory sure feels like it. TBH Primaris feels like an attempt to avoid the "buying your army over again" issue in tyhat they can now just introduce new niche units since primaris are no long generalists like first born where

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/29 06:55:17


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

One of the reasons Primaris exist is specifically because they can't keep getting people to re-buy Tac/Dev/Assault Squads over and over again. Each one has had 3 revisions (IIRC) since the start of 3rd. They even made super special ones in the Van/Sternguard units. I don't think they could do it a 4th time.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I can't see plastic releases for '30k' Not being playable in 40k. Every unit in the Battle for Calth set had 40k rules, and the "Horus Heresy" Mk 3 and 4 kits were built to Tactical Squad format.
And those can be shifted to Legends pretty easily. So yes, they'd technically still be playable in 40k, but as Legends units.

And remember, Tartaros and Cataphractii Terminators aren't playable anymore. They're "Relic Terminators".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 06:57:41


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