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I want to make a Legion of the Damned themed force and I am trying to come up with a reasonably balanced and semi-lore friendly set of rules for them in 9th, but as if they were a full chapter rather than just the remnants of one.

I have a few ideas for existing rules I could use, such as the Inferno Bolt weapons from TS (instead of the Flaming Projectiles from their Legends profile) and Unyielding Specters from their Legends profile. Maybe at a 4++ though, as 3++ army wide would be incredibly strong. And/or perhaps only on units with the Infantry keyword so it doesn't start affecting tanks, kind of like the DA Inner Circle?

While it would be cool to have an entire army of deep strike, I think it would make sense to not use the Aid Unlooked For rule from their Legends profile as that would be too strong army wide. It's also not really "Aid" if it's the whole army. Maybe it could be a 1/2cp unique Stratagem targeting a single squad for use in the pre-game set up? Flaming Projectiles could be a 1cp Stratagem for the second unique one as special successors often have.

I've also found homebrew 6th Ed adjusted rules for Attica Centurius here: http://chaptermasters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Sergeant-Centurius2013v2.pdf but they need to be updated for use in 9th. I think the general idea for him is great and I really want to field him since his model looks awesome. I also think I'll include Elam Courbray's relic The Sword Excellus from Legends even though he's meant for the Fire Hawks as they were originally. It's not too stand out as far as relics go, but it is a Fire Hawks relic which could have been possessed by the LotD. It also fills the almost required "unique relic" slot that WD rules like to have. Or maybe just Courbray himself as a second unique character. That way the relic actually gets used as it wouldn't take up a relic slot when built into a character datasheet. Would have to adjust his abilities and points a bit to account for the update to 9th and chapter tactics.

I think this is a really cool idea, but I'm having trouble making sure it's not incredibly broken. I don't mind it being a little strong or a little weak as most SM subfactions tend to fluctuate in that range, but I'd prefer it not be crazy weak or crazy strong as that's just unfun.

Any suggestions or other help would be appreciated!

If your going to create rules to field the Legion of the Damned as a chapter rather then as a unit I would treat it as if it was a Codex Supplement book; that means creating a unique chapter tactic, Detachment abilities (mainly an ability that activates on a specific doctrine), Stratagems, Warlord traits, Relics, a new psychic discipline, some unique objectives, and crusade rules if you want.

For the chapter tactic maybe something combining the abilities of Inferno Bolt and Unyielding Specters though even a 4++ is too strong for an army wide even just for infantry so instead something like;

* All attacks made with a bolt weapon the Armor Penetration is improved by one (this is cumulative with Combat doctrines).
* Each unit with this tactic has a 6+ invulnerable save.

A deep strike strat that can be used on any unit would work well I think. Following general convention if 5 models or less 1cp, if more 2cp.

Not really sure of what else right now.

ABILITIES
If your army is Battle-forged, then in addition to the Detachment abilities gained from Codex: Space Marines, units in your army with the Combat Doctrines ability gain the Flaming Projectiles ability so long as, with the exception of UNALIGNED units, every unit from your army is a LEGION OF THE DAMNED unit.

FLAMING PROJECTILES
The Legion is an army of vengeance and of flame, a brotherhood of warriors who appear at first glance to be Space Marines but quickly prove to be more lethal than even those most formidable of transhuman warriors.

Whilst the Tactical Doctrine is active, models with this ability ignore the benefit of cover when making attacks.

CHAPTER TACTIC: UNYIELDING SPECTRES
The Legion of the Damned are variously said to dwell in the spaces between reality and the realm of the Warp, in the hopes and dreams of desperate men, and in a pocket of reality eternally lit by the fires of hatred.

Models with this tactic gain a 5+ invulnerable save. Improve the invulnerable save of INFANTRY models with this tactic by 1, to a maximum of 3+.

WARLORD TRAIT: FIERY SPECTRE
This WARLORD has a 3+ invulnerable save, inflict a single mortal wound to the nearest enemy unit within engagement range when this WARLORD fails a saving throw for the first time each Fight phase.

RELIC: WRATH OF THE DAMNED
Model equipped with a bolt gun or master-crafted bolt gun only. The bearer's attacks with their bolt gun or master-crafted bolt gun automatically wound non-VEHICLE units.

STRATAGEM: AID UNLOOKED FOR 1CP
LEGION OF THE DAMNED STRATEGIC PLOY STRATAGEM
Use this Stratagem before the battle when declaring reserves and transports (if you are playing a mission without this step, use this Stratagem during deployment instead). Select one LEGION OF THE DAMNED unit (excluding VEHICLE or MONSTER units) from your army. That unit gains the Teleport Strike ability.

Their super doctrine is weak relative to the chapter tactic to encourage soup. The super doctrine is relatively more important for bolters than plasmaguns, encouraging the use of regular boltguns. Only one WL trait, relic and Stratagem instead of the regular 6/12/15, if you'd like you can use this as a base and flesh out the remaining rules to get the full set.

Another option would be making bolter fussilades, stalwart Ultramarines successors.

 vict0988 wrote:
ABILITIES
If your army is Battle-forged, then in addition to the Detachment abilities gained from Codex: Space Marines, units in your army with the Combat Doctrines ability gain the Flaming Projectiles ability so long as, with the exception of UNALIGNED units, every unit from your army is a LEGION OF THE DAMNED unit.

FLAMING PROJECTILES
The Legion is an army of vengeance and of flame, a brotherhood of warriors who appear at first glance to be Space Marines but quickly prove to be more lethal than even those most formidable of transhuman warriors.

Whilst the Tactical Doctrine is active, models with this ability ignore the benefit of cover when making attacks.

CHAPTER TACTIC: UNYIELDING SPECTRES
The Legion of the Damned are variously said to dwell in the spaces between reality and the realm of the Warp, in the hopes and dreams of desperate men, and in a pocket of reality eternally lit by the fires of hatred.

Models with this tactic gain a 5+ invulnerable save. Improve the invulnerable save of INFANTRY models with this tactic by 1, to a maximum of 3+.

WARLORD TRAIT: FIERY SPECTRE
This WARLORD has a 3+ invulnerable save, inflict a single mortal wound to the nearest enemy unit within engagement range when this WARLORD fails a saving throw for the first time each Fight phase.

RELIC: WRATH OF THE DAMNED
Model equipped with a bolt gun or master-crafted bolt gun only. The bearer's attacks with their bolt gun or master-crafted bolt gun automatically wound non-VEHICLE units.

STRATAGEM: AID UNLOOKED FOR 1CP
LEGION OF THE DAMNED STRATEGIC PLOY STRATAGEM
Use this Stratagem before the battle when declaring reserves and transports (if you are playing a mission without this step, use this Stratagem during deployment instead). Select one LEGION OF THE DAMNED unit (excluding VEHICLE or MONSTER units) from your army. That unit gains the Teleport Strike ability.

Their super doctrine is weak relative to the chapter tactic to encourage soup. The super doctrine is relatively more important for bolters than plasmaguns, encouraging the use of regular boltguns. Only one WL trait, relic and Stratagem instead of the regular 6/12/15, if you'd like you can use this as a base and flesh out the remaining rules to get the full set.

Another option would be making bolter fussilades, stalwart Ultramarines successors.

Like the super doctrine, chapter tactic feels too strong for an army like the Space Marines, I like the warlord trait, I would change the relic to auto wound on a 2+ instead, strat looks good though I would go for the 2CP on a unit over 5 models.

vict0988 wrote:

Spoiler:

ABILITIES
If your army is Battle-forged, then in addition to the Detachment abilities gained from Codex: Space Marines, units in your army with the Combat Doctrines ability gain the Flaming Projectiles ability so long as, with the exception of UNALIGNED units, every unit from your army is a LEGION OF THE DAMNED unit.

FLAMING PROJECTILES
The Legion is an army of vengeance and of flame, a brotherhood of warriors who appear at first glance to be Space Marines but quickly prove to be more lethal than even those most formidable of transhuman warriors.

Whilst the Tactical Doctrine is active, models with this ability ignore the benefit of cover when making attacks.

CHAPTER TACTIC: UNYIELDING SPECTRES
The Legion of the Damned are variously said to dwell in the spaces between reality and the realm of the Warp, in the hopes and dreams of desperate men, and in a pocket of reality eternally lit by the fires of hatred.

Models with this tactic gain a 5+ invulnerable save. Improve the invulnerable save of INFANTRY models with this tactic by 1, to a maximum of 3+.

WARLORD TRAIT: FIERY SPECTRE
This WARLORD has a 3+ invulnerable save, inflict a single mortal wound to the nearest enemy unit within engagement range when this WARLORD fails a saving throw for the first time each Fight phase.

RELIC: WRATH OF THE DAMNED
Model equipped with a bolt gun or master-crafted bolt gun only. The bearer's attacks with their bolt gun or master-crafted bolt gun automatically wound non-VEHICLE units.

STRATAGEM: AID UNLOOKED FOR 1CP
LEGION OF THE DAMNED STRATEGIC PLOY STRATAGEM
Use this Stratagem before the battle when declaring reserves and transports (if you are playing a mission without this step, use this Stratagem during deployment instead). Select one LEGION OF THE DAMNED unit (excluding VEHICLE or MONSTER units) from your army. That unit gains the Teleport Strike ability.

Their super doctrine is weak relative to the chapter tactic to encourage soup. The super doctrine is relatively more important for bolters than plasmaguns, encouraging the use of regular boltguns. Only one WL trait, relic and Stratagem instead of the regular 6/12/15, if you'd like you can use this as a base and flesh out the remaining rules to get the full set.

Another option would be making bolter fussilades, stalwart Ultramarines successors.

THANK YOU! This is honestly amazing and I will definitely be using this as the base. I wasn't even considering the whole Supplement Subfaction angle. This would even allow a ported datasheet for Centurius and Elam Courbray as a second character model or The Sword Excellus as just a second chapter Relic. Perhaps spice it up a bit to make it worthwhile over the other generic Power Sword relics. Perhaps in addition to rerolling wounds give it exploding 6s or an additional mortal wound on 6+? I'm thinking exploding 6s as it's got the Mastercrafted +1 to damage and reroll wounds. Or would that make it too powerful and thus make it better to have it deal an additional mortal wound on 6+ to keep the potential damage output lower?

KingGarland wrote:
Like the super doctrine, chapter tactic feels too strong for an army like the Space Marines, I like the warlord trait, I would change the relic to auto wound on a 2+ instead, strat looks good though I would go for the 2CP on a unit over 5 models.

Thanks as well. I will probably use those suggestions. I was already thinking the deep strike strat would follow the 1<5/2>5 style. I just put "1/2cp" as a bit of shorthand for it. I have to say, I do like that chapter tactic as it doesn't feel incredibly strong but still takes into account that most non-Troops Infantry can get Invuln saves from other sources. I don't particularly like the Flaming projectiles as there are a few units that already do that and I very much dislike overlapping abilities like that. I think I may take your earlier suggestion for it and make it just a flat 1AP boost for all Bolt weapons.

Since Chapters have two Chapter Tactics, I'm thinking one of these make the most sense thematically: Fearsome Aspect, Indomitable, Rapid Assault, or Warded. I do think Stalwart and Bolter Fusillades make sense as well, but I feel that they have too much synergy with the other things and would make them rather OP. Especially Stalwart on top of Unyielding Specters. Warded is kind of in that same boat, but it only affect Mortal Wounds and is very much in theme imo. It would just make them more survivable all around, rather than nearly impossible to deal damage to with normal means as the combo of Unyielding Specters and Stalwart would. As in theme as Fearsome Aspect and Indomitable are, I find that moral is generally a pointless part of the game in my group as most members play high Leadership and small unit sizes, making a failed Leadership test
nearly impossible. I suppose Fearsome Aspect would help in that regard though. I'm really leaning toward Rapid Assault as their final official iteration heavily featured Flamers and Meltas and it isn't too synergistic or broken in it's own right.

A thematic alternative I just thought up would steal the Warlord trait idea and make it a Chapter trait version. Fiery Burst: For each model with this Chapter Tactic slain during the Fight Phase, at the end of the phase roll a d6. On a 6, it the closest enemy unit takes 1 mortal wound. (This would sort of symbolize the fiery burnout they experience just before death. In lore, it says they sense their impending doom and go into almost a berserk rage, using all their might to take as many enemies with them as they can before the warpflame consumes them in a pillar of fire.) Maybe make it a last ditch melee/shooting attack instead, like the Noise Marines Music of the Apocalypse ability.

Right, I almost forgot which chapter they should be successors of. Since it is unknown just like the Blood Ravens, perhaps it should be Ultramarine suggested (the Fire Hawks claimed this, but Macragge denies any knowledge of it), but any possible? It's hard to say, as it would only affect which chapters relics and such that they get access to I think. I'm not really as well versed in SMs custom successor chapter rules as I should be right now, having mostly just used Crimson Fists since I like them lore wise. I could certainly see them benefiting from Salamanders Flamer and Melta relics and strats if I go with Rapid Assault trait, and it's fairly in theme for the same reason.

I am honestly not a fan of rules being tied so close-knit to the sub-faction, it's like there aren't any pyromaniacs in any Company or Chapter outside Salamanders and their successors, which seems incredible. The only thing I think should be chapter-locked is Relics. Sometimes you'll be forced to choose between the lore and the theme of a successor chapter. Maybe you have a Salamanders successor that cares a lot about the crafting and smithing thing but don't care about flamers and meltas.

There is nothing amazing about 1CP DS, there is a Necron Dynasty that has it, an AdMech Forgeworld has it and Ravenguard have it. You could also make a Ravenguard successor I suppose, that'd give you the Stratagem at least.

I am not familiar with the weapon you mentioned. I'd probably try to make it more unique, like Melee Melee Sx2 AP-1 D2 The bearer always fights first. Unmodified wound rolls of 6 made with this weapon inflict 1 mortal wound to the target at the end of the phase in addition to the normal damage.

I think Legion of the Damned should be pretty simple to represent.

Just something like:
- Firstborn Infantry units only.
- No special Combat Doctrines just the regular Devastator, Tactical, and Assault ones.
- Their Chapter Tactics give them Acts of Faith, Sacred Rites, and Shield of Faith.

Basically the 3 latter represent their standing as the “Emperors daemons” like Celestine.

vict0988 wrote:I am honestly not a fan of rules being tied so close-knit to the sub-faction, it's like there aren't any pyromaniacs in any Company or Chapter outside Salamanders and their successors, which seems incredible. The only thing I think should be chapter-locked is Relics. Sometimes you'll be forced to choose between the lore and the theme of a successor chapter. Maybe you have a Salamanders successor that cares a lot about the crafting and smithing thing but don't care about flamers and meltas.

There is nothing amazing about 1CP DS, there is a Necron Dynasty that has it, an AdMech Forgeworld has it and Ravenguard have it. You could also make a Ravenguard successor I suppose, that'd give you the Stratagem at least.

I am not familiar with the weapon you mentioned. I'd probably try to make it more unique, like Melee Melee Sx2 AP-1 D2 The bearer always fights first. Unmodified wound rolls of 6 made with this weapon inflict 1 mortal wound to the target at the end of the phase in addition to the normal damage.

Well, to be fair the BA and SoB are also fairly filled with pyros. I only brought it up for them as GWs final iteration of LotD only allowed Melta and Flamer special and heavy weapons for no apparent reason. IIRC their original line only had HB, ML, and Lascannon for HW and Plasma, Melta, and Flamer for SW.

As for the sword, it's on Elam Courbray: https://wahapedia.ru/wh40k9ed/factions/space-marines/datasheets.html#Elam-Courbray On him, it's just a Mastercrafted Power Sword with reroll wounds. That's why I'm thinking as the Chapter's unique relic, it should have a little more oomph to make it appeal over other SM relic melee weapons such as the Teeth of Terra or The Burning Blade which are available to any SM chapter. Perhaps instead of dealing mortal wounds I'll up it to +3S or -5AP. I'm leaning towards the -5AP boost to signify it's now warp touched existence allowing it to bypass even the greatest armor. The +3S boost would probably make it stronger overall with the reroll wounds ability meaning it should almost always get a wound, but I feel the -5AP is more in keeping with the Chapter's warpflame shrouded theme. That way it's good at killing anything, but not so strong that it starts shredding even vehicles and monsters. It's also in keeping with the weapon's own lore as seen here:

This archaic artefact was a weapon of unusual design, and when activated its blade was shrouded in white-hot plasma; a well-placed blow from Excellus could shear through the strongest of armours or burn its victims to cinders.

I could also take a page from a number of other melee relics and simply give it "Each time the bearer fights, it makes an additional attack with this weapon."

Jarms48 wrote:I think Legion of the Damned should be pretty simple to represent.

Just something like:
- Firstborn Infantry units only.
- No special Combat Doctrines just the regular Devastator, Tactical, and Assault ones.
- Their Chapter Tactics give them Acts of Faith, Sacred Rites, and Shield of Faith.

Basically the 3 latter represent their standing as the “Emperors daemons” like Celestine.

I do understand that aspect, but I was looking to keep the theme and lore as much as possible while still being able to use all the options available to SM. I may try to create a variant following that aspect of them though. It would make for an interesting comparison for lore accuracy, fun, and table top efficacy.

I think I will go with Warded for the second Chapter Tactic as I love the image of this particular part of their lore from the 40k fan wiki:

The Legionaries attack with an economy of motion that leaves even the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes wide-eyed with surprise. Though their ornate suits of ceramite are as efficacious as that worn by any other Space Marine, the Legionaries are able to shrug off wounds that would cut apart even a warrior clad in Tactical Dreadnought Armour. Energised blades slice them without resistance, Melta beams and plasma volleys pass right through them without causing the slightest harm.

Sometimes such deadly weapons find their mark, inflicting horrific damage and yet not slowing the Legionaries in the slightest. Those who witness such ethereal sights at first conclude that their deliverers are some manner of ghost or spirit, though the destruction the apparitions mete out soon puts the lie to the idea they exist only beyond the veil.

It's just such an awe inspiring mental image. These black armored Marines covered in bone iconography and spectral flames that appeared out of nowhere calmly advancing through the enemy fire, completely unharmed even by what should have been direct hits. Then, when the enemy finally hits one, he just continues on as if it was nothing.

I think I've finally got the rules for Excellus down!

Models with Power Sword or Mastercrafted Power Sword only. This relic replaces the model's Power Sword or Mastercrafted Power Sword.
Excellus: +1S -4AP D2 Reroll failed wound rolls. Each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified hit roll of 6 inflicts 2 mortal wounds on the target and the attack sequence ends.

I like this because the Mortal Wounds don't actually increase it's potential damage output, so it's not going to turn into a blender weapon, but it's still good against things with high armor and invuln saves. I took inspiration from the existing relics and of all the main chapters. I tried to pull out and combine what I thought fit with the idea of a warp touched Mastercrafted Power Sword clad in warpflame and white hot plasma. What do you all think?

Technically, it can increase damage against W1 units. Since mortal wounds spill over.

But I doubt that’d be an issue.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Technically, it can increase damage against W1 units. Since mortal wounds spill over.

But I doubt that’d be an issue.

You're right, I hadn't considered that. I'm not going to worry about it though. That was pulled from an existing relic anyway, so it's sort of GW approved.

Well, considering the new BT vow Uphold the Honor of the Emperor giving army wide 5++ & soft Transhuman, I think Unyielding Specters is fine as 5++/reduce 1 to minimum of 3++.

Still trying to work out a datasheet for Attica Centurius. I'm thinking a lightly buffed Chainsword and Bolt Pistol (can be upgraded to Plasma Pistol) for weapons and maybe a Wound drain ability to represent the Animus Malotum. I think making it a Psychic ability with the same stats as Smite, except it also heals him or a unit within 6" for 1d3 (cannot gain extra wounds or models).

I love legion of the damned and have a few squads myself.
I typically use the legacy rules from wahapedia as they have several editons and all units including "Damned-Legionnaires"
As this would have the latest rules, applicable for 9th (for a legacy unit, which is no longer supported / updated by GW).
I NEED TO HIGHLIGHT THAT THEY HAVE NOT UPDATED THE 2 WOUNDS THAT GW CONFIRMED ALL OLD STYLE MARINES HAVE
(unless that doesn't count for legacy units, but haven't met anyone who disagrees with 2 wounds).

The sergeant is just a sergeant of the unit and just has lore, rather than any unique character ability.
The legacy rules basically mean that the stats are like company veterans except that have higher LD and have a minimum unit size of 5 (and 10 max). So this prevents people taking the minimum 2 man squad with shield and sit them on an objective (which I like).
They also cost a little bit more in points but with the abilities from the units its worth it (for example you save points as you don't need a drop pod with the Aid Unlooked For ability, or you don't need storm shield as you have the Unyielding Spectres ability).

I love that they have some much unknown about them, it allows you to make a ton up to fit whatever you want.
I typically use the lore to make them a secret salamanders chapter.
The thinking is that the emperor is perpetual (does not die or dies and comes back), vulkan (primarch of the salamanders) is perpetual and perhaps a few of vulkan’s soldiers are also perpetual.
This is the legion of the damned, perpetual salamanders. They remain hidden and secret as they emperor would not want too many perpetual beings in the universe (as he would be less powerful).
Perhaps vulkan has even run off with them, who knows.
After dying and resurrecting so many times they sometimes go a little crazy and adorn there armour with there own bones and sometimes set themselves on fire (makes the blood angles black rage look tame).
I find this basic lore allows them to justify many scenarios (like space marines vs space marines etc).

This means I can argue that the are salamanders and not a successor chapter (just painted different) and then select all of the salamanders characters, strats and relics I want for any other units in the army (as technically the legion of the demand units themselves are chapter-less and only Adeptus Astartes stratagems apply to them, they have no special characters or relics).
For example, I did once consider using the salamanders strat Self Sacrifice (as the 3+ invun save would be handy) but realised that only applies to salamander infantry and not LOTD (which can technically appear in any army list regardless of chapter).

I have a custom Vulkan He’stan, where I removed the 5 dragons heads and replace some of them with skulls or bones (I also attempted to paint the cloak with the fire below the scales and the scales black). as a unit it looks like part of the looks like he fits with LOTD (lots of fire+added bones) and makes a good captain of the army.

I have several older LOTD units that have full sets of heavy weapons including the heavy bolter, rocket launcher and lascannon which I use in a devastator squad in LOTD style. These weapons don't appear in the rules for the legacy models for some reason and it should be argued that they should, since GW made the models for this squad originally (the list I found includes - boltgun, chainsword, power axe, power fist, power maul, power sword bolt pistol, plasma pistol, storm bolter, heavy flamer, multi-melta, flamer, meltagun, plasma gun).

I've got two or three of the squad box and the special weapons as well as Sergeant Centurius, but I've had no luck finding most of the rest of the old models and none with the newer ones. They're always priced crazy high, like $25 a model, often incomplete, or both. I often find models posted by this one shop on ebay that want like $30 for a pair of torsos, then sell the backpacks, pads, and guns, separately for roughly $4 each, but only in sets of several. Often the torsos don't even have arms, so you have to source the arms as a separate cost as well.

That aside, I know that they have some limited rules in legends and I am taking those into consideration, but what I'm trying to do is make a functional custom chapter based on them so that I can use the full range of SM models and not be limited just roughly half of even their own specific models.

3D printing is your friend

warpedpig wrote:
3D printing is your friend

I'm not sure where this is coming from. This is Proposed Rules for a thematic Legion of the Damned chapter.

If you're talking about the lack of availability of the older models, I'm interested in them as a collector. I do not require those specific models to play a SM with that gun, I want those specific models. 3D printing is great and can do many things, but it cannot pop a genuine 20yo model out. If I was interested in cheap resin knock-offs for my collection of old models, I would also buy the Finecast copies of the newer LotD models.

I will however be printing a number of themed bits for use with plastic kits.

You said they were priced crazy high. No they aren’t. They’re priced at a collectors value. So if you have a problem with those prices then try to 3D print. I really don’t care do whatever

warpedpig wrote:
You said they were priced crazy high. No they aren’t. They’re priced at a collectors value. So if you have a problem with those prices then try to 3D print. I really don’t care do whatever

I've been looking at them for a good long while. I know that old models can command higher prices from collectors, however there is a limit to "priced at a collectors value" and in my experience with buying 2nd hand, asking $30+ with buyer pays shipping for a single torso without arms, weapons, pads, or backpack is more than any of the regular LotD are worth. Especially since they had weapons, pads, and backpacks that came with each model. Often with an extra Boltgun or Bolt Pistol from the blisters since those were on sprues of three for a pack of two models. They were not that rare during their time.

But maybe you have a High Lords worth of disposable income and don't care about price, or maybe I've been spoiled as a buyer by finding what I believe are fairly priced models from time to time. Either way, asking that much for so little is "crazy high" in my view.

You are entitled to your own opinion and I respect that. We shall have to agree to disagree.

I would reckon that most of the stuff that is on Ebay and clean / new and not packaged in original GW packaging is fake.

The LotD models come in either pewter metal or fine-cast plastic (Perhaps there are a few exceptions but I don’t know)

If you are looking to get original models on Ebay, I would recommend ones that are in original packaging / boxes (can be expensive) or ones that are coated in old paint (which is normally cheaper but more work to clean off, I would recommend looking at youtube “eBay Miniature Rescues” for information on that).

On Ebay, I would reckon that the shiny new metal ones for the most part, especially if they have bulk amounts / lots of parts, are recasts (there may be a few people who clean them up and sell them on).

Before anyone says its not possible, yes you can recast pewter parts / units. DWR plastics have a high temperature resistant silicon for moulds and pewter for casting.

Before you shout, I know this as I was looking at building my own primaris techmarine on outrider (techmarine on bike) and was looking to possibly recast it after I had made it and saw that I could potentially do it in pewter metal (which would be cool but use a ton of metal and weight a far bit).
Still working on building that converted model.

There are a fair amount of recasts floating around and I likely own a few myself given how much metal I buy. While I wouldn't say most fresh metal models being sold are recasts, you should be wary of them and use common sense. One of the biggest giveaways of a recaster is not the appearance of the model, but the quantity. To make a cast, they have to get an original (though this can be a recast itself) and make a mold, then get the tools and materials to cast copies. This isn't the simplest or cheapest thing to do, so they will usually try to get a few originals of rare or valuable models and make many copies of them. It's simply not worth it to cast inexpensive models or only the cast a few times, the same reason the US doesn't put security strips on $1 bills.

One of the main things that I see being recast are squads that hold decent value and are full metal, while being normal to have repeat poses. This means mostly old IG Stormtroopers and Infantry models. On the flip side, there's good money in the rare models and kits, so I see such things as the old metal primarchs and such as well.