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Made in ca
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster



Ottawa

We know that daemonhood can be earned via long and loyal service to the Dark Gods. Notably, the daemon primarchs. Yet there are many longtime servants of Chaos such as Abaddon, Ahriman, Khârn and Lucius who are still mortals (with a pretty big caveat in Lucius's case).

I find it hard to believe that they simply haven't "earned" daemonhood yet. I think there are several possibilities why they have not ascended:


  • Perhaps the Dark Gods find it useful to have powerful mortal agents. A mortal can travel freely in the material plane and even infiltrate Imperial society. Plus, daemons are often bound by all sorts of rules and limitations, such as long periods of banishment to the Warp—no such problem with mortals. Lastly, it's possible that those who have been daemons for a very long time lose a sense of what it means to be a mortal, and the Dark Gods may like to have some servants who understand the mentality of those that they seek to corrupt or destroy.

  • Perhaps some servants of the Dark Gods have politely declined the gift of daemonhood. There could be many reasons for this, such as wanting to keep a measure of free will that daemons may lack. Or daemonhood could be the equivalent of a military officer being promoted from a field job to a desk job, and some people feel that their place is in the field.

  • One final possibility: perhaps death is a prerequisite in order to become a daemon. Perhaps those fine gentlemen are still mortals simply because no one has managed to kill them yet... and if someone ever does, they will finally ascend.


  • .

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/03 16:10:32


    Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Argent Shroud), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

    Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
       
    Made in gb
    Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






    Well, it’s not even Long Service. Because the Gods are, by our understanding, utterly, utterly insane.

    When we delve into the Realm of Chaos books, Gifts and Boons are completely randomised. And when you get enough? One of two things happen.

    1. Daemonhood.

    2. Spawndom.

    If memory serves, the only deciding factor was your strength of body and spirit. In-game it was of course dice roll based. But you could always forgo the roll entirely if you so chose.

    Returning to the background, this is likely why the fallen Primarchs all achieved Daemonhood. Whatever their failings, they were nothing if not strong in physical and spiritual fortitude.

    For even “mere” Astartes? That’s….much riskier. You could achieve absolute apotheosis. Or you could become a sack of eyes and bum holes.

    Abaddon? And indeed Archaon? Have canonically refused those gifts, as they do not see themselves as servants of the Chaos Gods. At all. They know Daemonhood makes you a slave. An exceptionally powerful slave, but a slave all the same.

    The only Daemon Prince raised up collectively is of course Be’lakor. And it’s his free spirited nature that has stopped all other such collaborations.

       
    Made in gb
    Preparing the Invasion of Terra






    Ascension is a "choice", you can choose to not get the "gift" and get turned into a worm or take it and become a slave to the Great Game.
       
    Made in no
    Liche Priest Hierophant





    Bergen

    I also do belive that daemons are screwed as far as free will is conserned. Once you acend you think you are doing whatever you want, but mostly you just do what the gods intend without knowing.

    I do think Abbadon has some distest of the daemons and consider daemonprinces weak. Of course, he probably consider every one weak. But we can not factor out that he might be right.

       
    Made in au
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Ascending to become a daemon prince isn't specifically an offer like signing a contract and get the powers, just as receiving Chaos gifts and mutations isn't. It just happens to you, though getting gifts and ascension is usually associated with doing things that please your patron god.

    However at least in the older background, Abaddon and Chaos Undivided champions went around doing things for all the gods. Do things evenly enough and a god might have a vested interest in keeping you from becoming a daemon prince of their enemy.

    Mortals have greater freedom of movement than daemons, which require either warp storms, or other sources of warp energy such as rituals, sacrifices, and/or worship. The greater the daemon, the greater the amount of warp energy needed to sustain it in the material world. That was the reason given for why Angron paused for a critical window of time in the First War of Armageddon. He had to engage in rituals and sacrifices to ensure he and his daemonic forces didn't dissolve back into the warp.

    A warband led by a daemon prince would have the same problem over time. Their strategy then may increasingly devolve from actual military strategy to just getting enough sacrifices or ritualistic components to prevent their boss from melting away into the warp.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/04 07:05:18


     
       
    Made in gb
    Preparing the Invasion of Terra






    Daemon Princes only need a physical body to remain in the material realm, most just keep the horrifically mutated one they had when they ascended. A particularly favoured Prince, like Doombreed or Mkar, can be physically destroyed but their soul can survive. Indeed Mkar needed to be "killed" 3 times and only a Shard of Erebus (the weapon that caused his ascension) could destroy him fully. These Princes often lead Daemonic Legions rather than Chaos Warbands and are sometimes worshipped like God's alongside the likes of Fateweaver or Kugath. These Princes need to do rituals and sacrifices to maintain their forces presence in the material realm.
    Your bog standard CSM Prince doesn't need to do this since their forces are mortal and (usually) aren't tied to the Warp like Daemons are. These ones, such as Voldorius or Kor Maegron, can be destroyed forever by conventional means.
    It basically boils down to:
    1 - Are you favoured by the Gods?
    2 - Are you part of a prophecy?
    If you answered "Yes" to either of these questions then you're more likely to not get shanked by some bored Ork.
       
    Made in au
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Daemon Princes are tied to the warp just like all other daemons. We have examples such as in Storm of Iron of newly ascended daemon princes effectively vanishing into the warp, leaving their mortal forces to a successor. Surviving in a possessed body (which may have been their original) only works for a time as possessed bodies wear out over time as they distort to fit the daemon's now true form and of course these bodies can be destroyed by the enemy, in which case all subsequent manifestations of the daemon prince are either using a warp formed body or another possessed body. A daemon prince's warband's veneration and rituals might suffice to keep it going outside of a warp saturated environment, but we don't really see examples of this AFAIK because whenever we see BL fiction of warbands that are not in a warp saturated environment they are almost invariably led by mortal characters.
       
    Made in gb
    Incorporating Wet-Blending




    U.k

    Length of service is irrelevant as well, time is not a concept with meaning in the warp. The quality that counts. What you do is what you are judged on. Not only that but being raised to a daemon prince and not ending up as a jibbering spawn Is very rare.

    All those other chaos marines you listed are basically footsoldiers in the grand scheme of things, maybe not abaddon but he was designed to be the archetype of a chaos lord and it wouldn’t do to have him become a daemon prince so they have fudged it so he isn’t. The rest just aren’t that significant in the bigger picture on the scale of the gods.
       
    Made in gb
    Preparing the Invasion of Terra






    I mean thats just not true.
    Typhus was the first Astartes devoted to Nurgle and holds a position that often rivals that of Mortarion. Its only by Nurgles direct command that Typhus coordinates with his father.
    Kharn and Lucius are essentially immortals as both their respective deities keep bringing them back to life over and over again.
    Ahriman is favoured because Tzeentch loves to mess with him and loves his intense drive for knowledge as well as his supreme levels of arrogance.
    All of these individuals serve the needs of the Gods far better as "mortals" than as Princes. They have just enough agency to act of their own accord but still provide sufficient nourishment and power to their patron. I also fully believe that the Gods saw how generally useless the Daemon Primarchs became after ascending and decided that simply rewarding their greatest mortal champions was a better idea.
       
    Made in gb
    Incorporating Wet-Blending




    U.k

    But what have they actually achieved or done. A war here or there, invasions here or there. Being a marine is more important to mortals than the gods, a marine is still an insignificant play thing in comparison. And I think you are misinterpreting the gifts of the gods, they are as someone further up said, bonkers and their rewards are as much a curse as a reward.

    The real reason non of these characters have acquired any gifts or rewards or demon/spawndom, is purely for plot realms. They don’t want them to be alter and mess with sales and game interactions. In reality in universe most would be spawn or mutated beyond recognition by now, but that wouldn’t sell well so they are in a constant state of just being spikey marines.
       
    Made in gb
    Preparing the Invasion of Terra






    Andykp wrote:
    But what have they actually achieved or done. A war here or there, invasions here or there. Being a marine is more important to mortals than the gods, a marine is still an insignificant play thing in comparison.

    I disagree. The Gods need pawns in the material realm to enact their plans and will. Regular mortals tend to go *squish* whereas Astartes don't. Having powerful, charismatic and long-lived agents is without a doubt something the Gods cherish. It's why they gave the Emperor power and it's why they claimed certain Legions and Primarchs for themselves. As for what the named marked characters, I don't fancy writing out all of their stories but I think it's safe to say they're all pretty good at killing and being chaosy.

    And I think you are misinterpreting the gifts of the gods, they are as someone further up said, bonkers and their rewards are as much a curse as a reward.

    They are that, yes but it's hardly the point. Kharn may be insane but he doesn't care and he gets to be immortal. Lucius looks horrific to me and you but not to himself, and he's immortal. Typhus is a walking WMD but why should he care? He's the favoured champion of Papa Nurgle. Back when he was still Typhon, he got 3 boils in the shape of Nurgle's mark but didn't care because he knew that the Grandfather was favouring him.

    The real reason non of these characters have acquired any gifts or rewards or demon/spawndom, is purely for plot realms.

    Ok? Literally everything can be boiled down to "plot reasons" so that argument is bunk.

    They don’t want them to be alter and mess with sales and game interactions. In reality in universe most would be spawn or mutated beyond recognition by now, but that wouldn’t sell well so they are in a constant state of just being spikey marines.

    Or it could be any of the things I've just discussed.
    And just to point something out, they are mutated to high heaven. Ahriman's face is a literal void, Lucius has a tentacle arm and a bunch of other horrible things, Typhus, again, is a walking WMD.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/06 18:04:57


     
       
    Made in us
    Dakka Veteran




    I think there might be a bit of ‘you gotta want it’, not in a sense of having to agree to gifts (which clearly isn’t the case) but in how you follow Chaos.

    Most followers of Chaos are pretty desperate for the gods’ attention, trying to attract their notice and impress them. Those people get the funky mutations and the path to spawndom or daemonhood.

    Compare particularly Khârn or Arhiman or Lucius. They mostly just do their own thing which happens to massively push their God’s agenda, but they’re not especially worried about catching the gods attention, if they even regard them much at all.

    Those people the gods keep alive as entertainment and provide more subtle blessings, but they don’t push them on the path to spawn or Prince as they just don’t get the same value as they would just helping them keep doing what they’re doing.
       
    Made in es
    Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




    Vigo. Spain.

    Abaddon has rejected Daemonhood and he sees it as one of the reasons why Horus felt.

     Crimson Devil wrote:

    Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

    ERJAK wrote:
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    Made in gb
    Preparing the Invasion of Terra






    As soon as you take the "gift" of ascension you become a pawn in the Great Game, at least more than you already were, except now you are nigh impossible to kill and the Gods have a lot more control over your actions.
       
    Made in us
    Terrifying Doombull




     Niiai wrote:
    I also do belive that daemons are screwed as far as free will is conserned. Once you acend you think you are doing whatever you want, but mostly you just do what the gods intend without knowing.

    I do think Abbadon has some distest of the daemons and consider daemonprinces weak. Of course, he probably consider every one weak. But we can not factor out that he might be right.


    There are a lot of hints in quite a lot of chaos books that he is absolutely right. Many, many chaos-centered stories that involve a person 'achieving' daemonhood describe the daemon as a 'seed' inside the person, one that erupts and displaces the original person. Quite often they're described as screaming in the back of the daemon's mind.

    The gods get servants more powerful than a lesser daemon, but the mortal... basically gets devoured. Its a path for short-sighted fools who only see the power, not the consequences.
    Or in the case of a couple primarchs, tricked or forced into it.

    Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
       
    Made in no
    Liche Priest Hierophant





    Bergen

    I thouht it more of suptile thought controll, not an actual replaceent. But that works as well.

       
    Made in gb
    Incorporating Wet-Blending




    U.k

     Gert wrote:
    Andykp wrote:
    But what have they actually achieved or done. A war here or there, invasions here or there. Being a marine is more important to mortals than the gods, a marine is still an insignificant play thing in comparison.

    I disagree. The Gods need pawns in the material realm to enact their plans and will. Regular mortals tend to go *squish* whereas Astartes don't. Having powerful, charismatic and long-lived agents is without a doubt something the Gods cherish. It's why they gave the Emperor power and it's why they claimed certain Legions and Primarchs for themselves. As for what the named marked characters, I don't fancy writing out all of their stories but I think it's safe to say they're all pretty good at killing and being chaosy.

    And I think you are misinterpreting the gifts of the gods, they are as someone further up said, bonkers and their rewards are as much a curse as a reward.

    They are that, yes but it's hardly the point. Kharn may be insane but he doesn't care and he gets to be immortal. Lucius looks horrific to me and you but not to himself, and he's immortal. Typhus is a walking WMD but why should he care? He's the favoured champion of Papa Nurgle. Back when he was still Typhon, he got 3 boils in the shape of Nurgle's mark but didn't care because he knew that the Grandfather was favouring him.

    The real reason non of these characters have acquired any gifts or rewards or demon/spawndom, is purely for plot realms.

    Ok? Literally everything can be boiled down to "plot reasons" so that argument is bunk.

    They don’t want them to be alter and mess with sales and game interactions. In reality in universe most would be spawn or mutated beyond recognition by now, but that wouldn’t sell well so they are in a constant state of just being spikey marines.

    Or it could be any of the things I've just discussed.
    And just to point something out, they are mutated to high heaven. Ahriman's face is a literal void, Lucius has a tentacle arm and a bunch of other horrible things, Typhus, again, is a walking WMD.


    Guess we will have to agree to disagree. Anyone thinking they have anything close to free will where the gods are concerned is mistaken massively.

    The characters mentioned were just champions of each power to represent them. The back stories have been filled out over the decades but not very well. Anything coming from the HH series is generally awful in my opinion. They are at best cliches and if you compare the fluff around chaos now compared to the original realm of chaos books all nuance and subtlety has been lost. We are left with plot armoured cliches that make no sense in any ways.

    Most servants of chaos have no idea what they are doing, and a marine is powerful in the material universe but in comparison to the denizens of the warp they are just a flickering candle to snuffed out. To think that the gods care for them at all is just silly. Considering an admin error can send entire worlds to their deaths in the imperium chaos can manipulate very humble people and sow utter destruction very easily.

    And don’t get me started on how stupid it is that abaddon is somehow playing the gods but refusing their gifts, that is just plain dumb. There’s no refusing a gift from from the gods, you just wake up with a dog face or eye stalks. That is why I like the idea of iron warriors just chopping off mutated bits all the time, it’s why Ahriman turned the thousand sons to dust.

    The system falls down with named characters, and with this I am with mad doc grotsnik, they suck.



       
    Made in gb
    Preparing the Invasion of Terra






    Andykp wrote:
    Guess we will have to agree to disagree. Anyone thinking they have anything close to free will where the gods are concerned is mistaken massively.

    Nobody has free will in the Imperium, or the T'au Empire, or in an Ork Waaaaghh. Free will in 40k is an illusion so instead let's just ignore it and discuss the setting as if anyone making any decision ever actually had a choice.

    The characters mentioned were just champions of each power to represent them. The back stories have been filled out over the decades but not very well. Anything coming from the HH series is generally awful in my opinion. They are at best cliches and if you compare the fluff around chaos now compared to the original realm of chaos books all nuance and subtlety has been lost. We are left with plot armoured cliches that make no sense in any ways.

    That's all of 40k and has been for some time. And honestly, I'll take plot armour or divine intervention over nihilism and nothingness. If my characters have literally no agency whatsoever then there's no point in there being personalised background because the wider setting removes any character or drive they have because "the Gods control everything". At that point the setting no longer interests me.

    Most servants of chaos have no idea what they are doing, and a marine is powerful in the material universe but in comparison to the denizens of the warp they are just a flickering candle to snuffed out. To think that the gods care for them at all is just silly. Considering an admin error can send entire worlds to their deaths in the imperium chaos can manipulate very humble people and sow utter destruction very easily.

    1 - Papa Nurgle cares for all his children.
    2 - I'm not suggesting that the Gods are going to devote all their attention to a single mortal at any given time but rather they will focus for a time on those who are particularly proficient or interesting. It's like having a favourite character in a book or TV show. The Gods can't act in the material realm without pawns but why have a pawn when you can have a rook or a queen? It's all well and good to influence 100 baseline humans to murder 1000 other humans but when you can influence 50 nigh immortal killing machines to kill hundreds of thousands, that's just better. Yes in the wider scheme of things, Chaos Cults are the "enemy within" but they take time to develop and might not actually ever amount to anything. A Warband of Astartes can and will cause immediate and impressive damage in the Great Game while also providing a good distraction away from said Cults.

    And don’t get me started on how stupid it is that abaddon is somehow playing the gods but refusing their gifts, that is just plain dumb. There’s no refusing a gift from from the gods, you just wake up with a dog face or eye stalks.

    Abbadon refuses certain gifts and ensures he doesn't get bad ones by playing the Gods off against each other. Khorne threatens to give you rubber bones? Make more dedications to Slaanesh to counterbalance it. All the Gods want Abbadon but don't want him to go to their rivals so by tempering their more volatile tendencies (i.e. dog faces and squid legs) they ensure that their prize doesn't spoil. That and the Gods also have a vested interest in giving the Anathema (the Emperor) a bloody nose, something they need Abbadon to do.

    That is why I like the idea of iron warriors just chopping off mutated bits all the time, it’s why Ahriman turned the thousand sons to dust.

    The Warp is a mutating environment, spend time in it and you get mutations. If you're of the religious mind then these are blessings or curses of the Gods, if you're of the scientific mind then these are either positive or negative mutations. The Iron Warriors (by and large) fall into the latter category.
    As for the Thousand Sons, the Flesh Change was present in the Legion long before their fall to Chaos and was a side effect of their proficiency in Psychic abilities. The Flesh Change was accelerated by the use of their Psychic powers, much like how the Wolves need to curb their savage nature lest they become Wulfen. Ahriman cast the Rubric because he thought it would cure the Flesh Change once and for all, which technically it did for most of the Legion. Tzeentch had a hand in this because it dragged the Legion further into its embrace, Ahriman especially who would then go on a never-ending quest to secure the knowledge needed to reverse his mistake, one that would bring him great power at the expense of his soul.
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut







     Gert wrote:

    The Warp is a mutating environment, spend time in it and you get mutations. If you're of the religious mind then these are blessings or curses of the Gods, if you're of the scientific mind then these are either positive or negative mutations.


    That's a good start. But you need to take it the next step: Chaos gifts are just opening yourself up to the warp's influence. And likewise, if you're of the religious mind the results are blessings or curses of the Gods.

    People try to seek a particular god's "favor" in various ways, trying to rig the odds. But there's an immense amount of post hoc fallacy, survivor bias, and gambler's "logic" involved.
       
    Made in gb
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    U.k

    I think you are over playing peoples willingness in this. The vast vast majority know nothing or virtually nothing of the gods and their existence let alone nature. You as the reader/player in this setting know a lot more than them. Most cultists or devotees don’t know who or what they are worshiping. Just enough to hook them in.

    And gert, saying free will doesn’t exist so let’s talk as if it does is not a good basis for any discussion.

    All the examples of the super marines above are examples of wrong they have got chaos in later editions and all examples of the stupid stores where the gods come across as gullible roobs as opposed manifestations of pure emotions.

    And again a marine or 50 can do so much but manipulating one administratium worker into misinputting some data could kill billions and throw a sector in chaos is a lot more effective.

    You need see the setting through the eye of a god in the warp and a marine, even abaddon is just a speck.
       
    Made in gb
    Preparing the Invasion of Terra






    But your scenario implies the Chaos Gods are rational and logical beings, which by their very nature they aren't. Sure it might be far more efficient in the long run to just manipulate the bureaucracy of the Imperium to cause mass starvation and death but then you don't get your tasty soul snacks for ages. All Gods (Emphasis on all, Aeldari, the Emperor, Gork and Mork) are just cosmic children, they might be capable of rationality but kicking and screaming when you don't get your way is much easier. Khorne once got so mad that Tzeentch went to Slaanesh for some help with an invasion that Khorne picked up its super sword, cut a hole in reality and drowned the planet in blood and skulls, ruining the victory for everyone.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/08 13:41:22


     
       
    Made in gb
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    U.k

    I am not saying it is there preferred way or they are worried about efficiency, you are misunderstanding me, I am saying quite the opposite. You Example was that a marine is more efficient to the gods than a normal human.

    I am saying that they would hold a marine in more or less regard than a normal human, they are all insignificant to them. So the idea that a marine could play the gods or pick choose their rewards is just silly and undermines the excellent fluff that the setting is based on.

    All these stories of the gods doing x or y make it worse. The gods are utterly unknowable, so other that to even glimpse their presence is enough to drive most humans utterly insane.
       
    Made in gb
    Leader of the Sept







     Gert wrote:
    But your scenario implies the Chaos Gods are rational and logical beings, which by their very nature they aren't. Sure it might be far more efficient in the long run to just manipulate the bureaucracy of the Imperium to cause mass starvation and death but then you don't get your tasty soul snacks for ages. All Gods (Emphasis on all, Aeldari, the Emperor, Gork and Mork) are just cosmic children, they might be capable of rationality but kicking and screaming when you don't get your way is much easier. Khorne once got so mad that Tzeentch went to Slaanesh for some help with an invasion that Khorne picked up its super sword, cut a hole in reality and drowned the planet in blood and skulls, ruining the victory for everyone.


    That is quite the tantrum... Just waiting for the "hold my beer" moment that one-ups that

    If an individual is going for blessings by the chaos gods, then I think the spawn/daemonhood split that was talked about further up is a good model.

    Chaos is ultimately a hierarchy based on power and knowledge. I would suppose that the weak minded or ill prepared that try to go straight to the top will just be utterly corrupted and spawnified.

    At the other end of the scale, an individual with ultimate mental fortitude would be able to open themselves for possession, but then control the possessing daemon themselves and effectively usurp their power. I also suppose that one could replace natural mental fortitude with knowledge/preparation. And if you start small, you can gather power slowly in manageable steps, absorbing ever growing ranks of daemon to nick their powers. The only problem then is if you draw too much attention too quickly and an apex predator decides you're too dangerous, or the relevant god takes a hand directly and it all goes a bit irresistible.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/11 16:38:00


    Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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