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Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Just a general question, not specific to any one army. Is overwhelming the enemy with huge numbers of bodies/wounds a good tactic? I've seen a bunch of battle reports on YouTube, and the army with the most troops generally wins.

Coincidence? Or valid tactic?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





United Kingdom

Depends in the army and what you're up against.

Necrons do this very very well, but you can give up a lot of points for the 'No Prisoners' secondary if you're not careful.

They're also prone to blast type weapons and morale.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

It seems a thing of the past to be honest, current game heavily penalizes hordes.


 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Must've been a coincidence then...
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





lots of small units is a thing though. Trade minimum amount of units needed to score secondaries and give you primaries.

Big units swarming in? Game is so silly lethal that dozens of orks die in a heartbeat. At least now they got T5 which helps a bit but of course got price hike as well...


2021 painted/bought: 857/1043 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, its a kind of target saturation.
With the right army, this could be a winning strategy.

Former moderator 40kOnline

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Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

 Crafter91 wrote:
Depends in the army and what you're up against.

Necrons do this very very well, but you can give up a lot of points for the 'No Prisoners' secondary if you're not careful.

They're also prone to blast type weapons and morale.


As long as you make more points than you give away its fine. A unit of 20 warriors scoring 5 points when holding one marker for take and hold, would need to lose 50 warriors to give away 5 points. Thats pretty much impossible.

 Blackie wrote:
It seems a thing of the past to be honest, current game heavily penalizes hordes.


If you play AM you need a lot of bodies to be able to hold markers, because they die very fast. Dont try unless you have 100+. Again, if you score more points than you give away its fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/05 10:21:11


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

AM have an ancient codex and they have little alternatives to a good number of guardsmen. All the other classic horde army that have alternatives (orks, deathguard and tyranids for starters) are penalized if they bring the horde style and all their best builds (note builds, plural, not just one top list) have little amount troops.

And even when they bring a considerable amount of infantries, it's usually cheap specialistst, not troops.


 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

A huge number of models was a good way in 8th edition. Then when 9th edition came all of the units got a 2 point increase and that shut that strategy down quite hard.

There are some armies that can atemt it. Tyranids have gaunts. Death guards have poxwalkers. Imperial guards have done it in the past. Orks had green tide type armies. GSC could also pull of a lot of units.

It is dull to play, takes long time to move around, and costs a lot to buy. Could be fun though. But it is not good in 9th and not my cup of tea.

   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





Best horde orks can muster rn imo is a bunch of 10 man deffskullz kommando squads. They get obsec on top of the pretty great kommando stats.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in ca
Sureshot Kroot Hunter





I've been running a horde army in my local league, Kroot of all things, and I've been crushing everyone so far. Three games in and I've won all no contest. I just have too many resilient Obsec bodies that are fast enough to get on the objectives turn one that take forever for them to dislodge, if at all. This is using Legendary models and in the 1000 point bracket though, so take that as you will.

It runs 60 carnivores (each in units of 10) backed by 2 ethereals (for 6+ FNP and Ld 9 auras) with markers and 2 shapers (for aura wound re-rolls). 3 Krootox sit on a back field objectives while taking pot shots. 1 Greater Knarloc, 6 Knarloc Riders, 12 Hounds, and a Shaper get thrown into whatever I'm concerned about. Stratagems like Hidden Hunters really help with the durability of key units. I use the Gunship Diplomat trait to get a free over watch aura.

I think it's a valid tactic for sure from my experience, however you need numbers, speed, and durability for it to work, and not all hordes can pull that off at the moment.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/10/05 17:25:12


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Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





United Kingdom

There's an ork list knocking about that focuses on multiple patrols with massed trukkboys, kommandos, stormboys and burnas that relies on a massive alpha strike and overwhelming the opponent before they can really hit them back.

It's potentially devastating to a lot of armies that simply lack the firepower to clear them before they get rolled over, but also falls flat against a lot of armies, and it basically has no shooting outside of a few Mek guns.


As others have said, it's potentially a viable tactic but it needs the right list in the right environment to work well. Multiple units of 5-10 models is probably the ideal, as bigger units will be crippled by morale/blast.
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




I see...
   
Made in ca
Sureshot Kroot Hunter







Basically, what it comes down to at the end of the day is how well can you fight for the objectives and achieve/deny secondaries. Whatever type list you build, you should have some kind of battle plan that focuses on these three things. 1) How you're going to get up the board into the midfield and stake your claim. 2) What secondary objectives do you think you could most easily achieve against most armies. 3) What secondaries could an opponent score easily against you and how do you combat that.

When playing a horde army for instance, you've got a lot of bodies to contest objectives, so you want to get them up the table as fast as possible, however (especially in the lower point games) sinking a lot of points into expensive transports can backfire on you and weaken your attack strength. If you can manage getting to most objectives turn 1, things like Stanglehold or Raise the Banners High could be good options. (They are the ones I use in my Kroot list becasue they are very quick up the board). If you're a slow horde but have good shooting, the "Kill Things" objectives could be more your things based around whatever your opponent takes. If you're fast and/or have Deep strike on a lot of your units, you could go with something like Behind Enemy Lines/ Engage on All Fronts.

What you have to watch out for too is what you're weak against, Horde armies tend to give up a lot of points to Grind them Down, No Prisoners (in the larger games) and/or Assasinate (if you're Character heavy). So you want to try your best to play in a way that keeps whole units from getting wiped out even if you loose a fair few models. (Again to use my army as an example, my hordes are buffed with auras that give them a 6+ FNP and 9 Ld so that less die, and when a lot of firepower brings more down, they don't run very often.) Or keeping your characters safe behind a mass of bodies until they do what you need them to.

The best way to learn though it to play. Throw something together that you think will be fun and try it against a variety of armies, you'll learn it's strengths and weaknesses and be able to adjust accordingly.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/05 22:05:15


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Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

I did try some 120 bodies in a GSC cult list that some people had had sucksess with. It was complete trash, at least against Orks who like to get stuck in. I just crumbeled.

As 9th has moved on a lot of armies have elemnts of melee that I think horde armies can have a though time against as you get to fight in all rounds, as opposed to shooting only in your own round.

   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




I'll admit, the "capture objectives" and "secondaries" thing confuses me. I was raised on 2nd ed., where the general idea was just "kill all enemies!"

I don't even know what most of the objectives are.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Well the you are a bit of a disadvantage as horde armies really can not kill anything. They winn on points.

   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Huh. Okay.
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Maybe I'm just weird but I think currently mounted forces (all in vehicles if not vehicles) seems to do much better. Ofc maybe that's just because that's how I play dark eldar. It certainly helps if you have open topped transports or manned guns and your guys are often fragile.

Yeah it's partly an issue of mobility and durability.

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Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




The particular horde I had in mind was chaos + daemons, with loads of daemonettes and horrors, if that matters...
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

Hecate wrote:
The particular horde I had in mind was chaos + daemons, with loads of daemonettes and horrors, if that matters...


If thats what you want you might wanna try disciples of belakor from the warzone charadon 2 book of fire. Its a mixed army of csm and daemons.

   
Made in ca
Sureshot Kroot Hunter





 Niiai wrote:
Well the you are a bit of a disadvantage as horde armies really can not kill anything. They winn on points.


Totally agree with Niiai on this. At least fromt he perspecitve of the Horde army I'm playing. I've got "a lot" of firepower, but it's all weak so it's doesn't kill all that much (in one of my games it took a little over half my army's shooting just to kill 5 Intercessors). If you want to play a horde army, you really need to understand how to play the objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecate wrote:
I'll admit, the "capture objectives" and "secondaries" thing confuses me. I was raised on 2nd ed., where the general idea was just "kill all enemies!"

I don't even know what most of the objectives are.


It certainly takes some getting used to. I came back into the game early 9th and was really thrown for a loop. The nice thing about secondaries is that you can push your army more in that direction, some just boil down to "Kill X thing for points", though as mentioned above, Horde armies aren't typically all that great at those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecate wrote:
The particular horde I had in mind was chaos + daemons, with loads of daemonettes and horrors, if that matters...


I haven't played with or against deamons in ages so I can't really say, however, I do think that 5+ invul on all their models would probably give them a lot more staying power than most hordes, so conceptually this sounds like a good route to go.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/06 16:39:29


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Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

The nice thing about having to play objectives is that it gives more dimension to the game. If it was about killing it gets harder to balance the game as gun lines are quite optimal. And a bit boring. (IG leafblower parking lots of 5th edition hello. Or IG airplane spam of 6th edition. Not fun for either player.)

Now you can loose your army to shooting and still winn on points, witch does not make an enforcing to the player who is already ahead.

You can look at these links:

A general guide to the game

https://youtu.be/e0tzYbL6gLI

And a horde list with 100 pox walkers came in 3rd place at a big tournament. David Horn – Death Guard – 3rd Place

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-london-goes-big/


I personally would think pox walkers is a fun horde to paint. (As opposed to say imperial guard.) And, seconderily Terminators are great. And death guard even more so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/06 16:00:02


   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Yeah, one of the hordes that I saw win was full of daemonettes.
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

I think somebody i played against did it with necrons but that was against an older list i used.

Necrons can really jump around if you want them to and are pretty durable.

Honestly i think the factions that are solid are more along the lines of sisters or necrons which can make it to objectives fast enough and just sit on the objectives and not die fast enough.

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Made in ca
Sureshot Kroot Hunter





 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Honestly i think the factions that are solid are more along the lines of sisters or necrons which can make it to objectives fast enough and just sit on the objectives and not die fast enough.


Yeah, that's how I've been winning with my Kroot, certainly seems to me like that's the way to go with hordes.

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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Run Skitari horde. Go and buy 120 models of skitari rangers and vanguard and run it. There you go. Easy right ? lol

You will still have lots of points left over to add a whole bunch of other toys too because each skitari is only 8 points per model. So 120 skitari vanguard/rangers is only 960 points ...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/11 01:39:24


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I love large units. Just makes all the missile launchers and other blast weapons kill so much more. I don’t think units over ten really do you any favors.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Eldenfirefly wrote:
Run Skitari horde. Go and buy 120 models of skitari rangers and vanguard and run it. There you go. Easy right ? lol

You will still have lots of points left over to add a whole bunch of other toys too because each skitari is only 8 points per model. So 120 skitari vanguard/rangers is only 960 points ...


Yea those damn models need a 2 point bump.

   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Early in 9th large hordes were all the range but with power creep being what it is there are to many units that just put out ungodly amounts of attacks which has caused hordes to fall off.
   
 
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