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Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




Well, after a looong wait, it's finally here. I actually thought that it came out already and I just missed it as I wasn't really interested about it after Spectre bombed and Craig looked like he doesn't want to do the role anymore. I went in pretty much blind, without even watching the trailers so I had no idea who's the bad guy and why, and that approach worked just fine...for the most part.

Spoiler-free part first: first two-thirds of the movie is pretty good. It builds up slow and the plot is pretty complicated with a large cast. That always works for me. The villain is suitably mysterious, with both obvious and non-obvious motivations. But the third act is a grind to watch through. Action scenes are way too long and there is too much talking which doesn't lead to anything. At the times it feels like you're watching some weakly scripted FPS run. Also I really don't think Craig and Seydoux have a particularly good chemistry together. Admittably part of the blame lies on script which has her emotional or sappy nearly all the time.
On a plus side cinematography is much better than in Spectre which was just dull, drab or plain badly shot most of the time. Though in some places it is still too dark and drab and you can't make out who is shooting whom. Not big fan of the title track but maybe it grows on me.

Overall, it's better than Spectre but not really by that much. Of Craig's five movies, I say it's firmly in the middle.

Then, the spoiler territory for more specific criticism:
Spoiler:

-I don't mind villains who talk a lot but they need to come at something. Safin never does. We never even find out what his plan or ultimate goal exactly is, it is left completely vague.

-In same vein, it's left unclear why CIA and MI6 can't work together

-as I said, action scenes are LONG and they really get into silly territory with the enormous body count. Even Paloma, who was introducted as a rookie and doesn't have any kind of action star physique, kills like 20 goons, dual wielding her guns.

-several of the supposedly climatic scenes are abrupt and anti-climatic. Often they are resolved simply "the good guy shoots him". Blofeld's death scene was weird and I don't know what they were going for with it. Was Bond trying to kill him or not, or give a secret message or free him or what the heck?

-so what was Safin and his family exactly up to in the island? What was the purpose of garden? Why they were killed? What's with the 'flowers who make you compliant'?

-for all the hype about female 007, Nomi really doesn't get a big role. She has lots of screentime, but doesn't do much and seems ineffective when compared to some other female Bond sidekicks like Anya Amasova or Wai Lin.



Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






Saw it, loved it.

It managed to weld traditional ‘very daft Bond’ to more modern ‘somewhat more realistic Bond’.


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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

I think it's amazing. I'm not a fan of Craig's bond movies, only liked Skyfall among those and I consider Spectre and Quantum of Solace in particular pretty terrible, but this one was really epic.

The first part in Matera was absolutely brilliant, so were the sequence with Ana de Armas and the ending.

About the chemistry between Craig and Seydoux I think it was ok, although there's a gap of age of nearly 20 years that IMHO it's the biggest obstacle in their relationship, or any real relationship actually. The song and the credit scene were just godawful .


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





No time to die?

Better would be this title:
No time to watch.

Imo Craig isn't a proper Bond like Connery, Moore and Brosnan. I watched one of his movies in which the secret service got bombed and wasn't amazed at all. In a nutshell: The magic is gone.

I also severely detest the marketing of Craig's Bond movies as being constantly attributed as "modern" which implies the previous flicks, as well as their fans, are outdated and inferior to what they churn out today.

And again:
No time to watch.
   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






 Strg Alt wrote:
No time to die?

Better would be this title:
No time to watch.

Imo Craig isn't a proper Bond like Connery, Moore and Brosnan. I watched one of his movies in which the secret service got bombed and wasn't amazed at all. In a nutshell: The magic is gone.

I also severely detest the marketing of Craig's Bond movies as being constantly attributed as "modern" which implies the previous flicks, as well as their fans, are outdated and inferior to what they churn out today.

And again:
No time to watch.


So you’ve not seen it?

You should. It will challenge your not undeserved criticism of what came before
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





They've not really appealed to me either. The whole endeavor started 15 years ago when the genre was in the thralls of Bourne and the gritty reboot was all the rage. It was part of the same wave of success that carried Nolan's Batman and similarly struggled trying to maintain that kind of gloom for audiences that quickly jumped on the MCU's preference towards color and optimism.

There's been some solid films along the way for sure, but you can also feel the franchise being contorted into an awkward shape in an attempt to modernize. It's in so many ways the counterpart to Nolan's Batman, trying to shake itself of the shadow of Die Another Day similar to Batman and Robin.

Ultimately, I think the main problem is just that it's grossly overstayed its welcome. Where Dark Knight Rises bowed out and ended the era of grit, Skyfall's success spurred on more movies that have dragged the concept well past it's shelf life. Much like similar problems in comics, things like Watcchmen and Dark Knight Returns shine in small doses. The tone that really shined in Casino Royale just isn't resonating 15 years later.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

I haven’t really liked most modern Bond movies. I thought Golden Eye was pretty good, but the next two sucked. Casino Royals was decent, but didn’t feel like a Bond movie to me. I saw one other Craig Bond movie and can’t even remember which one.


   
Made in gb
Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot



Wrexham, North Wales

 LunarSol wrote:
They've not really appealed to me either. The whole endeavor started 15 years ago when the genre was in the thralls of Bourne and the gritty reboot was all the rage.......


Jason Bourne didn't kill Bond. Austin Powers did.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dark and gritty Bond is an oxymoron. Bond was written as a dry British parody of American spy novels of the 50s and 60s. The hero supercompetent, always gets the girl, etc. Ian Fleming took the latter to comical heights, and Bond almost always bumbles into the villain's plot and survives only due to the villain's arrogance.

Bond was never intended to be a hero. He was intended to be a joke. Making him overly serious misses the whole point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/09 01:21:14


CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Strg Alt wrote:

Imo Craig isn't a proper Bond like Connery, Moore and Brosnan. I watched one of his movies in which the secret service got bombed and wasn't amazed at all. In a nutshell: The magic is gone.

I also severely detest the marketing of Craig's Bond movies as being constantly attributed as "modern" which implies the previous flicks, as well as their fans, are outdated and inferior to what they churn out today.


Yes marketing of Bond movies has been self-parodying for decades, they always ballyhood how THIS movie is modern and has strong female roles, unlike all the others... It has become really silly.

I don't mind grittiness, many of the Fleming books were actually pretty gritty, and as a character Craig's Bond is closest to the literary Bond. 'Casino Royale' is one of the most loyal book adaptations of the franchise.
Moore's Bond was the furthest away from Fleming's vision, and I think the franchise reached its artistic nadir during his era - although I do like his early movies. It is funny how many people look back to those comical movies - so much since parodied - and view them as the 'proper' Bond.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/10/09 11:39:51


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Backfire wrote:

I don't mind grittiness, many of the Fleming books were actually pretty gritty, and as a character Craig's Bond is closest to the literary Bond. 'Casino Royale' is one of the most loyal book adaptations of the franchise.
Moore's Bond was the furthest away from Fleming's vision, and I think the franchise reached its artistic nadir during his era - although I do like his early movies. It is funny how many people look back to those comical movies - so much since parodied - and view them as the 'proper' Bond.


Probably because, in comparison, Craig's Bond movies are just ...... lacking. Overall, though they're well made movies, & they make $$, in the end they haven't really been much fun to watch. They're too serious.
This gritty realism stuff just doesn't sync up with all the absurd, larger than life, stuff that's made the character/franchise popular movie-wise. Thus the absurd/larger than life stuff gets toned down or outright excised. But that absurd stuff is what people still want & expect from a 007 movie.
So is it any wonder that people look back fondly on those Connery - Bronson movies that they actually enjoyed watching?

   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Seriously, is there anyone who prefers Moore's and Brosnan's movies over Craig's? Moonraker, Octopussy, Die Another Day or that awful thing with vodoo?

I love Connery's Bond movies but they're not something I would have liked to see in theatres in the late 70s and 80s, let alone in 2021. Craig's Bond is definitely a proper Bond, just a modern one.

I don't even think they're even this realistic, plots based around crazy supervillains that threat the world with some wicked and scary large scale plan never are. Where's the realism in the chase from the initial scene in Italy? Or the fight scenes in Cuba, at the club where the three good guys kill a hundred of henchmen without missing a shot and even finding the time for a drink during a shootout, but also the chase and fight in Norway, into the woods?

Only the protagonist's feelings are a bit more realistic compared to his older counterparts. I also see A LOT of irony in these movies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/10 06:46:20



 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Moore's films definitely ramped up the camp too far - and by the later ones, he was definitely getting to be too old for the role.

Die Another Day went OTT with the gadgets, and the bad CGI wave can't be forgiven, but the other three Brosnan films hold up, IMO.

I would say that I'd watch a Brosnan or Craig Bond film for different experiences, though, and wouldn't try to directly compare them.

From the bits of Bond literature (by Fleming) I've read, I would say that Craig feels closed to the book version of Bond.

Note - All comments above made without having seen No Time To Die yet

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Blackie wrote:
Seriously, is there anyone who prefers Moore's and Brosnan's movies over Craig's? Moonraker, Octopussy, Die Another Day or that awful thing with vodoo?

I love Connery's Bond movies but they're not something I would have liked to see in theatres in the late 70s and 80s, let alone in 2021. Craig's Bond is definitely a proper Bond, just a modern one.

.


Yes lots of people - in fact most people who have posted here!

However people want different things - I started a new thread on what a bond viewer wants?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/801363.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/10 09:26:31


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Blackie wrote:
Seriously, is there anyone who prefers Moore's and Brosnan's movies over Craig's? Moonraker, Octopussy, Die Another Day or that awful thing with vodoo?


Ah... me? Because I understand Bond is spy parody and has absolutely nothing to do with actual spy work? I mean, how can you call any of them a serious spy movie with not a single dead drop in sight?

Not to mention the villain schemes that range from weird to impractical clear into WTF territory.

Bond is not a franchise to be taken seriously. Making it serious is a serious mistake.

Now it is possible to go too far the other way *coughMoorecough*...

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

I agree, it shouldn't be taken seriously. But IMHO neither Mission Impossible or John Wick (which you mentioned in the other thread) are actual serious films, there's a lot of irony in them and they are very far from being believable. That's how I like a Bond movie, or any other fun action movie that doesn't derail into a comedy or full parody.

I mean Bond shouldn't be as silly as Austin Powers, The Naked Gun or even Fast and Furious. And I don't even think that Craig's Bond movies are that more serious than Connery's ones. Those are simply movies from the 60s. Honestly I don't think there's a single action movie in the history of western cinema that should be taken as serious.

With Moore and Brosnan things became too cartoonish. Some people may like that style, I respect it, I just think that overall quality of those movies were pretty low.

Anyway Craig's reign is over, and I'm looking forward to see what's next for James Bond, it's entirely possible that new Bond will take a completely different direction. Maybe more serious, maybe more cartoon.


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

I fin it amusing that while we had no problem with Russians as the baddies, the desire to make money in the Chinese market means the obvious ‘bad guy’, the CCP and its spy antics, are out of bounds.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Blackie wrote:
Seriously, is there anyone who prefers Moore's and Brosnan's movies over Craig's? Moonraker, Octopussy, Die Another Day or that awful thing with vodoo?

I love Connery's Bond movies but they're not something I would have liked to see in theatres in the late 70s and 80s, let alone in 2021. Craig's Bond is definitely a proper Bond, just a modern one.

I don't even think they're even this realistic, plots based around crazy supervillains that threat the world with some wicked and scary large scale plan never are. Where's the realism in the chase from the initial scene in Italy? Or the fight scenes in Cuba, at the club where the three good guys kill a hundred of henchmen without missing a shot and even finding the time for a drink during a shootout, but also the chase and fight in Norway, into the woods?

Only the protagonist's feelings are a bit more realistic compared to his older counterparts. I also see A LOT of irony in these movies.


Live and Let Die was an absolutely great popcorn movie.

I liked the first 2/3 of Casino Royale but after that they've all sucked. You can't make Bond movies as serious films. They're not supposed to be.

I also agree with the above. Bourne took the serious bit and knocked it out of the Park. Austin Powers took all the fun bits and knocked them over Dr Evil's head. You want serious and gritty spy, go watch The Courier. You want cool Bond watch Atomic Blond. Moody Bond is boring Bond, sorry.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Blackie wrote:
Seriously, is there anyone who prefers Moore's and Brosnan's movies over Craig's? Moonraker, Octopussy, Die Another Day or that awful thing with vodoo?

I love Connery's Bond movies but they're not something I would have liked to see in theatres in the late 70s and 80s, let alone in 2021. Craig's Bond is definitely a proper Bond, just a modern one.

I don't even think they're even this realistic, plots based around crazy supervillains that threat the world with some wicked and scary large scale plan never are. Where's the realism in the chase from the initial scene in Italy? Or the fight scenes in Cuba, at the club where the three good guys kill a hundred of henchmen without missing a shot and even finding the time for a drink during a shootout, but also the chase and fight in Norway, into the woods?

Only the protagonist's feelings are a bit more realistic compared to his older counterparts. I also see A LOT of irony in these movies.


Yes. Craig's movies are generic action flicks. Dull and he has no charisma as the character.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Same. Craig's Bond is cardboard, and whatever the plots are, they aren't interesting or entertaining.

Older Bond films have _lots_ of issues, but the directors (and actors) understood what they were making.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/11 15:43:31


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Vulcan wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Seriously, is there anyone who prefers Moore's and Brosnan's movies over Craig's? Moonraker, Octopussy, Die Another Day or that awful thing with vodoo?


Ah... me? Because I understand Bond is spy parody and has absolutely nothing to do with actual spy work? I mean, how can you call any of them a serious spy movie with not a single dead drop in sight?

Not to mention the villain schemes that range from weird to impractical clear into WTF territory.

Bond is not a franchise to be taken seriously. Making it serious is a serious mistake.

Now it is possible to go too far the other way *coughMoorecough*...


Being unrealistic doesn't mean it can't be serious. Lots of unrealistic works can get very serious - fantasy, superhero, scifi, even anime & cartoon...
But I think I get your main point: a Bond flick should not take itself too seriously and dwell too much into gritty dirty territory. Plenty of movies do that already with characters which are better match for it. People watch Bond for its timelessness glamour, unique charisma of the main character, they don't want to see him dragged through mud and blood for 120 minutes.

Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I mentioned this in the other thread, but one of the things I find makes Bond, Bond is this sense that these adventures are just a day in the office, doing his 9-5. There's a detachment to everything that goes on that comes from being prepared for anything no matter how outlandish.

Craig's Bond tries to make things more personal. It's hardly the first time this has been done, but I don't think you can pull it off as often as Craig's movies have attempted. It works in Casino Royale because that's kind of the point of the film. A reboot that ends with Bond getting attached and learning why that's a bad idea.
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 LunarSol wrote:

Craig's Bond tries to make things more personal. It's hardly the first time this has been done, but I don't think you can pull it off as often as Craig's movies have attempted.


Yeah, this is my main problem with Craig movies. It worked first time around (and it was very similar as in the original novel). I personally also liked Skyfall, which I see perhaps the only successful 'deviation' from the Bond formula. But the last two you got the feeling they were just threading water and trying to recapture the lightning.
It's a cyclical issue with the Bond films: every time they hit something which resonates with the viewers and seems to suit the actor, they beat it to death so much that the movies become stale and the lead gets bored with the role, and then they have to reset it to something totally different, preferably with a new guy in the lead.


Mr Vetock, give back my Multi-tracker! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





To a degree, I don't think that was always the plan. QoS is a lot more impersonal, but it suffers the most from not really knowing what it wants to be in a year in which a few movies REALLY made a statement. It's pretty clear Skyfall leans back into what worked a little more than it might have if QoS had landed.

I do like Skyfall, but its also really weird how much it wants to be The Dark Knight. Spectre also really felt like it wanted to be the Winter Soldier, but mostly suffers the same way a lot of films trying to reverse engineer the MCU did. Definitely overcomplicated Bond on the whole.

I'm very curious to see what they do next. Also curious to check out this one, but its hard when Craig has been shackled with so much continuity that I've had very little interest in following.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The_Real_Chris wrote:
I fin it amusing that while we had no problem with Russians as the baddies, the desire to make money in the Chinese market means the obvious ‘bad guy’, the CCP and its spy antics, are out of bounds.


Well, in the 60's you weren't going to be screening in the Soviet Union no matter what, so who cared?

Now China is a huge market for films, so it's very important not to offend your audience because you'll make less profit that way.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done. 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

The chinese government also censors movies that portray them in some bad way, while russians (and western countries in general) laugh about being portrayed as corrupted, gangster, stupid or "bad" in general.

A plot involving evil/corrupted agents from the producers' own country, including the actual government, is pretty common for western countries, but still a taboo in China.


 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Saw this one last night. Pretty good! A decent send off to Craig's bond. Action was good. Gadgets that came into play. Henchman with a deformity. Cooky bad guy with a secret base and a crazy world changing plot. I dug it.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in gb
Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

 Blackie wrote:
About the chemistry between Craig and Seydoux I think it was ok, although there's a gap of age of nearly 20 years that IMHO it's the biggest obstacle in their relationship, or any real relationship actually. The song and the credit scene were just godawful .


I liked the end credits song. It felt like a nice little nod to On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Overall, I really liked it, with a few quibbles. Some thoughts below--

Spoiler:
Loved pretty much all the action setpieces, especially the one in the forest.

Didn't see the SPECTRE twist coming, and having the villain outwit Bond and Blofeld simultaneously was a great way to build heat.

I kind of appreciated that Nomi didn't obviously overshadow Bond, because that's always a lame way to build up a new character, but she....well, felt kinda wasted. There were at least three points in the second half where I was thinking "Okay, this is where she gets her big solo action setpiece." and it just...never happened. Michelle Yeoh got more to do in her movie in 1998!

The villain was creepy and intimidating....but it meant he kind of melted into all the "scarred, creepy obsessive men with power" villains from all the other Craig movies. It really showed in this one, where the scarred madman with a twisted sense of humour and a personal obsession with Bond was vying for screentime with the other scarred madman with a twisted sense of humour and a personal obsession with Bond. And what was his actual plan beyond "kill loads of people"? There was a hint that it might be some sort of eugenics with the tailored virus, but it never really got clarified who he wanted to kill other than his henchman saying something racist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/12 21:19:13


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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Spoiler:
Backfire wrote:
Even Paloma, who was introducted as a rookie


Spoiler:
At one point Bond looks at her wryly and says "Only three weeks training?" and she smiled back, through gunfire, "something like that". She wasn't a newbie that suddenly became hyper competent she was always hyper competent but pretending to be a newbie.



The villain's motivations were a bit underdeveloped. I think he was supposed to be a Kefka-like character that just wanted to set the world on fire; he had been hurt and just wanted to return that hurt on everyone else. I don't really get where he got all those resources either as it he just seemed to have appeared whole cloth with a secret lair, access to countries most highly kept secrets, and a massive goon pool. I'm wondering if there was a blink and you'll miss it background element that explained it or if something were cut to make it a trim almost three hour experience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/14 12:04:08


Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

That was probably my criticism of the film too - both the Malek baddie and Blofield in particular were badly developed. And Christopher Waltz was criminally under-used in his role. I would say the only thing comparable to it in modern film is the casting of Idris Elba and Matthew Mcconaughey in The Dark Tower (which could have been absolutely the perfect casting) and then making a film that missed the mark.

I really enjoyed No Time to Die. Without putting things in Spoilers they dared to do something new, developed the character, still had some great action sequences. Bond took off his shirt 5 times in the first 20 minutes, kicked around with some hot laydees and gunned down tons of people while coming out with one-liners, so the core of the film stayed the same in that respect.

Spoiler:
Honestly thought the ending was a great one. They finally gave him something worth dying for and it neatly tied up his character arc.

I am guessing now they will go the modern franchise route, which is to wait a few years, cast someone younger/new and then start a new series of films.

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