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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




So, back in the 30k universe the Imperium was churning out Space Marines in the hundreds of thousands with no problem what so ever. As far as I know there was no logical need for the Apothecarion to remove the Gene Seed, which, in 40k universe is necessary because of technological regression and they can't make Space Marines from new.

Along comes the Primaris, which they are churning out in the Thousands, if not tens of Thousands. Now, obviously they are making them from new, and therefore can continue making them from new, so why is the Lore still saying Apothecary's still need to remove the Gene Seed ??? They're not making Mini Marines any more so what's the need?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Because Primaris marines need geneseed too.

And for what it's worth, there's never been anything concrete anywhere about Chapters no longer raising oldstartes marines.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Australia.

Interesting question.

Perhaps it’s less resource intensive to recover than to make/acquire more - recycling is good, right?
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Deadnight wrote:
Because Primaris marines need geneseed too.

And for what it's worth, there's never been anything concrete anywhere about Chapters no longer raising oldstartes marines.


So where are all the gene seeds coming from to make thousands, tens of thousands of new marines? They must be able to make them from scratch so no, they dont need to have gene seeds taken from fallen marines.

It doesnt matter if they are making old astartes or not because the gene seed taken from the old astartes will be used to make a new old astartes. Its not being taken to create a primaris, because a primaris clearly doesnt need an old gene seed to be created or they never could have been made in the numbers they have been, and if they are being used for Primaris for some illogical reason, they then cant be used for old astartes,.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
angrygriffin wrote:
Interesting question.

Perhaps it’s less resource intensive to recover than to make/acquire more - recycling is good, right?


Possibly. Couldnt argue against that as a logical reason but would say it isnt portrayed that way in the fluff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/16 08:26:00


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Stephen1974 wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
Because Primaris marines need geneseed too.

And for what it's worth, there's never been anything concrete anywhere about Chapters no longer raising oldstartes marines.


So where are all the gene seeds coming from to make thousands, tens of thousands of new marines? They must be able to make them from scratch so no, they dont need to have gene seeds taken from fallen marines.

It doesnt matter if they are making old astartes or not because the gene seed taken from the old astartes will be used to make a new old astartes. Its not being taken to create a primaris, because a primaris clearly doesnt need an old gene seed to be created or they never could have been made in the numbers they have been, and if they are being used for Primaris for some illogical reason, they then cant be used for old astartes,.


Ah, gotcha.

They don't make it from scratch I'm afraid.

Iirc cawl got permission to raid the geneseed stores on terra back in the day to work on his projects. that was the initial stock. But he doesn't have free access to it - most of the banks are under lock and key since the time of the heresy.

Since the initial stock though - if I'm.understanding your question right, where do they get it from?

They do need to get it from the fallen at the end of the day.

primaris geneseed is still geneseed and functions same as the old. You implant an aspirant and after a certain length of time you can remove the 2 progenoid glands and use those to implant 2 more aspirants etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/16 08:36:47


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I think you've made some false assumptions OP.
Firstly, geneseed can be made from scratch but it is extremely difficult and it's just easier to use the implants which all grow a second organ alongside the first, which is then harvested not long into a Space Marines life. Legion Apothecaries still removed this second organ to create new Astartes. The process was better during the Crusade because the Legions also had access to the Emperor who created them in the first place and the Selenar Gene-Cults who helped turn the process into an industry. Both of these things are now gone and there has also been politically based restrictions placed on the numbers of the Astartes Chapters. During the Heresy all of the Legions started using dangerous or risky methods to rapidly induct thousands of Astartes to boost their numbers during the conflict.
Secondly, the Primaris are not made from new geneseed. It's still the same organ as before. Cawl was given access to the Sangprimus Portum, a device with the near perfect genetic records of all 20 of the Primarchs, and a hell of a lot of other equipment to start the Primaris Project. Cawl didn't suddenly get all of this either, it's taken 10k years, multiple lifetimes and numerous new memories/personalities supplemented onto his original self to get this far.
Finally, it's not illogical to use geneseed to create Primaris Astartes because they are objectively superior to Firstborn. They will replace them eventually in a thousand years or so just as the Firstborn replaced the Thunder Warriors.
   
Made in us
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First off, anything having to do with geneseed is a prime example of 'we never thought this through' that has just continued. It barely made sense in the original lore and doesn't work when you try to scale it. Just handwave it away as somehow working.

Second, this is Cawl we are talking about. The reason it might have taken him 10K to make all these new primaris is he just grew the first few thousand batches as living organ donors.
( (Aspirant + geneseed) + 10 years + bolt round = 2 geneseed) is not out of the question.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Deadnight wrote:


And for what it's worth, there's never been anything concrete anywhere about Chapters no longer raising oldstartes marines.



actually there has. back when they opened their 500th store GW put out an article on WarCom titled "500 facts for 500 stores" and one of them was to specificly note many chapters are still raising standard Marines alongside Primaris to make use of the large stores of old wargear they have.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Pretty straight forward here.

Every Astartes can produce a maximum of two mature Progenoid Glands. This is to help insulate the Chapter from losses on the battlefield. Each fallen Brother allows for two potential replacements.

A single Progenoid Gland would be too few, given the inherent risks of creating an Astartes.

Over time most Chapters build up a reserve of Geneseed. This is largely due to their numbers being capped during the Second Founding.

Some of their reserves are tithed to Terra, and stored for the purpose of creating new Chapters, as well as ensuring not all their eggs are in one basket.

Geneseed itself is a salvage operation from the Primarch Programme, post abduction from Terra. All the time you have a living, healthy Primarch, you have a prime source of new Geneseed to be cultivated. We see this during the Great Crusade, as each time a Primarch was returned to the fold, The Emperor was able to stabilise flaws in their Legion’s Geneseed.

Cawl? Well, he not only had thousands of years to get the project viable and start stockpiling Primaris in suspended animation, but also the memories and technology used in creating the first Marines, and even the Primarchs themselves.

And that’s the important thing to remember. Cawl simply didn’t fart out the entire project over a weekend. It’s the result of many thousands of years and untold resources.

We don’t know exactly when he perfected the Primaris process. It could’ve been quite early on (firstborn being a salvage operation strongly suggests they were never the intended final product. And we know The Emperor was one to tinker and improve). This would explain the many thousands held in stasis/cryosleep until Guilliman gave the word.

Cawl likely had some access, however clandestine, to the Geneseed vaults on Terra - or he had sufficient original stock and knowledge to simply culture it for himself. Certainly he’s had a go at further stabilising the stuff implanted into the Primaris.

So why can’t Chapters just do that anyway?

Well….first of all, sheer attrition. They’ve been out there fighting for the past 10 Millennia. Taking casualties, not really having the time to slow down and take stock. Then there’s the nominal cap of 1,000 Battle Brothers. So even if you avoid attrition and hefty casualties, you just don’t need to be creating further Astartes.

Consider the Scythes of The Emperor. All but wiped out by a Tyranid invasion. Given time and the resources, that Chapter could have been restored off its own back. If you’ve got say, 10 surviving Veterans, who haven’t previously had their Progenoid removed, that’s 20 Aspirants. If they make it through, 40, then 80, 160, 320, 640 then finally A Full Chapter, in just 6 or 7 generations. And unlike human generations, those just need to wait until the Progenoid Glands have matured. Add in any Geneseed stored elsewhere (such as on Terra), and you could restore such a Chapter in maybe a century or two at most.

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Stephen1974 wrote:
So, back in the 30k universe the Imperium was churning out Space Marines in the hundreds of thousands with no problem what so ever. As far as I know there was no logical need for the Apothecarion to remove the Gene Seed, which, in 40k universe is necessary because of technological regression and they can't make Space Marines from new.


It's not that the Imperium can't make more space marines, the issue is the supply of gene-seed. Apothecaries are there to harvest fallen marines geneseed so they can immediately make more.

Marines typically have geneseed stores at their fortresses in case they can't harvest it from fallen brothers.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Deadnight wrote:


And for what it's worth, there's never been anything concrete anywhere about Chapters no longer raising oldstartes marines.



actually there has. back when they opened their 500th store GW put out an article on WarCom titled "500 facts for 500 stores" and one of them was to specificly note many chapters are still raising standard Marines alongside Primaris to make use of the large stores of old wargear they have.


That's what I said - chapters still recruit oldstartes.

There's nothing out there suggesting legacy/old chapters switched over to primaris exclusively.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Jarms48 wrote:

It's not that the Imperium can't make more space marines, the issue is the supply of gene-seed. Apothecaries are there to harvest fallen marines geneseed so they can immediately make more.

Marines typically have geneseed stores at their fortresses in case they can't harvest it from fallen brothers.


No, thats what the lore is telling you. What I'm saying is that the lore doesnt make sense anymore because Cawl is making Primaris. I simply dont buy that hes raiding gene seed vaults. He was given access to the same technology as the Emperor had at a time when they were churning out hundreds of thousands of Space Marines without the need to harvest gene seeds. The speed at which Space Marines were being made would have vastly out stripped the recovery rate from fallen marines.

Update on my understanding...

Researching more in to it, they dont NEED Gene seeds from fallen Space Marines to make new ones, but its FASTER if they do. They can grow the necessary genetic material inside humans and harvest it from them but this takes many years. That makes more sense than the old lore of the tech was lost and this is the only way. It just didnt work for making Primaris, but using humans to grow the material first. Thats how you get to make tens of thousands of Primaris in one go. Plot hole resolved.

   
Made in us
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Stephen1974 wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
Because Primaris marines need geneseed too.

And for what it's worth, there's never been anything concrete anywhere about Chapters no longer raising oldstartes marines.


So where are all the gene seeds coming from to make thousands, tens of thousands of new marines? They must be able to make them from scratch so no, they dont need to have gene seeds taken from fallen marines.

It doesnt matter if they are making old astartes or not because the gene seed taken from the old astartes will be used to make a new old astartes. Its not being taken to create a primaris, because a primaris clearly doesnt need an old gene seed to be created or they never could have been made in the numbers they have been, and if they are being used for Primaris for some illogical reason, they then cant be used for old astartes,.



The Primaris weren't made overnight. Cawl initiially got his tithe and he's been working on the 'primaris project' for 10,000 years, in lab conditions. He's had plenty of time to implant 1 geneseed then harvest 2 geneseeds, over and over and over again to build the primaris hordes. Say it took him 5000 years to get to a functioning prototype state, and it takes 10 years for both glands to mature for harvest (1 at 5, 2nd at 10). Each individual successful geneseed he starts with at the prototype stage will yield 1000 new ones over the next 5000 years.

If anything, once again the numbers of marines are too low, even if you factor in some random amount of failures and testing accidents.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 02:45:49


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Deadnight wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Deadnight wrote:


And for what it's worth, there's never been anything concrete anywhere about Chapters no longer raising oldstartes marines.



actually there has. back when they opened their 500th store GW put out an article on WarCom titled "500 facts for 500 stores" and one of them was to specificly note many chapters are still raising standard Marines alongside Primaris to make use of the large stores of old wargear they have.


That's what I said - chapters still recruit oldstartes.

There's nothing out there suggesting legacy/old chapters switched over to primaris exclusively.


yup and I'm noting that GW has in fact specificly said they have not.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Voss wrote:


The Primaris weren't made overnight. Cawl initiially got his tithe and he's been working on the 'primaris project' for 10,000 years, in lab conditions. He's had plenty of time to implant 1 geneseed then harvest 2 geneseeds, over and over and over again to build the primaris hordes. Say it took him 5000 years to get to a functioning prototype state, and it takes 10 years for both glands to mature for harvest (1 at 5, 2nd at 10). Each individual successful geneseed he starts with at the prototype stage will yield 1000 new ones over the next 5000 years.

If anything, once again the numbers of marines are too low, even if you factor in some random amount of failures and testing accidents.


Thats not how it works, and even if it did, where did he get the three new gene-seeds from? he had to make them from scratch.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






You can make geneseed from scratch it's just incredibly difficult and inefficient. Cawl had the technology to do so and the experience of one of the original members of the Astartes project melded into his own mind. Cawl was also given a portion of recruits, geneseed from storage, and fully realised Firstborn to conduct the Primaris Project.
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol





The Shire(s)

Stephen1974 wrote:
Voss wrote:


The Primaris weren't made overnight. Cawl initiially got his tithe and he's been working on the 'primaris project' for 10,000 years, in lab conditions. He's had plenty of time to implant 1 geneseed then harvest 2 geneseeds, over and over and over again to build the primaris hordes. Say it took him 5000 years to get to a functioning prototype state, and it takes 10 years for both glands to mature for harvest (1 at 5, 2nd at 10). Each individual successful geneseed he starts with at the prototype stage will yield 1000 new ones over the next 5000 years.

If anything, once again the numbers of marines are too low, even if you factor in some random amount of failures and testing accidents.


Thats not how it works, and even if it did, where did he get the three new gene-seeds from? he had to make them from scratch.

Which aspect are you referring to by "its not how it works"? It is well established that 1 implanted geneseed matures into two geneseeds over a number of years, which can then be extracted for implantation into two new hosts. Geneseed doubles every few years unless lost in battle, and can be extracted when the Marine is alive once matured. In 100 years, doubling every ten years, a single geneseed could create 1024 geneseeds if my maths is correct. The numbers get silly for 1000 years.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/17 20:47:48


 ChargerIIC wrote:
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Terrifying Doombull




Stephen1974 wrote:
Voss wrote:


The Primaris weren't made overnight. Cawl initiially got his tithe and he's been working on the 'primaris project' for 10,000 years, in lab conditions. He's had plenty of time to implant 1 geneseed then harvest 2 geneseeds, over and over and over again to build the primaris hordes. Say it took him 5000 years to get to a functioning prototype state, and it takes 10 years for both glands to mature for harvest (1 at 5, 2nd at 10). Each individual successful geneseed he starts with at the prototype stage will yield 1000 new ones over the next 5000 years.

If anything, once again the numbers of marines are too low, even if you factor in some random amount of failures and testing accidents.


Thats not how it works, and even if it did, where did he get the three new gene-seeds from? he had to make them from scratch.


That is how it works. You implant a recruit with geneseed. At 5 years, one progenoid gland can be harvested, the second can be harvested at 10 years.

As for where he 'got them from,' once Guilliman gave him the job, Cawl was given a cache of geneseed. He had an Ark Mechanicus he was using as base and laboratory for the entire project. He had plenty of space, and lots of (frankly) victims to implant geneseed in, experiment on and harvest geneseed from for 10,000 years. The growth honestly gets stupidly exponential (which I didn't bother breaking down originally) with enough test subjects, and the Imperium has never been lacking in human bodies to do horrible things to.

Even with grievous experimental and training losses, dumping 10,000+ primaris marines on the galaxy at the dawn of the 41st millennium is a non-issue. Its the culmination of a 10,000 year project. It honestly should be many, many times that. But GW is nothing if not consistently bad with numbers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/18 00:13:04


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




They don't harvest them from live marines and they are not growing marines just to then kill them to harvest. And it isnt two from one, there are two seeds implanted. They dont grow additional seeds. They dont multiply.
   
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In My Lab

Stephen1974 wrote:
They don't harvest them from live marines and they are not growing marines just to then kill them to harvest. And it isnt two from one, there are two seeds implanted. They dont grow additional seeds. They dont multiply.
Then Marines would’ve died out a long time ago. If you get one to one Marines, then every time you can’t recover geneseed, you lose a Marine forever.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Stephen1974 wrote:
They don't harvest them from live marines and they are not growing marines just to then kill them to harvest. And it isnt two from one, there are two seeds implanted. They dont grow additional seeds. They dont multiply.


You're fundamentally wrong on the bolded point. However you want to split the hairs, you implant one "package" of geneseed into a marine, and you get to harvest the organ needed for a new set a five years and another new set at ten years. This has been the established reproduction mechanism for twenty or more years of lore. In other words: Yes, they do multiply.

You're right that they're not growing marines to harvest two sets. They don't have to. Those two particular organs mature just fine in servitors (the details get hand waved whether they're modified servitors, people who tried to become marines but failed, or whatever.) It still takes the same amount of time, whether the organ is in a marine or a human incubator, but unlike a marine you can just kill the human incubator to remove the second set.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Stephen1974 wrote:
They don't harvest them from live marines and they are not growing marines just to then kill them to harvest. And it isnt two from one, there are two seeds implanted. They dont grow additional seeds. They dont multiply.



Nope. One geneseed implanted per aspirant, 2 removed. That's how it's always been. Yes, they multiply.

And they do harvest them from live marines. T 5 and 10 years. Apothecaries taking the glands from the fallen is very much 'worst case scenario' - normally its just routine procedure after a certain length of time.

There's references in the older lore that they use vat grown servitors to grow the geneseed glands so they'll have enough geneseed for a *new* chapter.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Stephen have you actually read any background regarding Space Marines or more specifically geneseed? You're having literally everyone tell you you've made an error and you're planting your feet in denial.
   
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Deadnight wrote:

There's references in the older lore that they use vat grown servitors to grow the geneseed glands so they'll have enough geneseed for a *new* chapter.


I'll need to double check in the 9th edition codex but I'm fairly certain this is still stated to be how a Founding happens (on the biological logistics front at least). There's also the always persistent rumors of high attrition rate Chapters keeping it as a practice (to various degrees of Inquisitorial scrutiny).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/18 11:38:06


 
   
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Dakka Veteran




Deadnight wrote:
Stephen1974 wrote:
They don't harvest them from live marines and they are not growing marines just to then kill them to harvest. And it isnt two from one, there are two seeds implanted. They dont grow additional seeds. They dont multiply.



Nope. One geneseed implanted per aspirant, 2 removed. That's how it's always been. Yes, they multiply.

And they do harvest them from live marines. T 5 and 10 years. Apothecaries taking the glands from the fallen is very much 'worst case scenario' - normally its just routine procedure after a certain length of time.

There's references in the older lore that they use vat grown servitors to grow the geneseed glands so they'll have enough geneseed for a *new* chapter.


It’s worth noting that while the 5 year one is almost always removed when ready, the 10 year one is often not removed until death. IA: Rites of Initiation noted that some chapters believe that makes it higher quality and it’s also the harder one to get to.
   
Made in gb
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U.k

Deadnight wrote:
Stephen1974 wrote:
They don't harvest them from live marines and they are not growing marines just to then kill them to harvest. And it isnt two from one, there are two seeds implanted. They dont grow additional seeds. They dont multiply.



Nope. One geneseed implanted per aspirant, 2 removed. That's how it's always been. Yes, they multiply.

And they do harvest them from live marines. T 5 and 10 years. Apothecaries taking the glands from the fallen is very much 'worst case scenario' - normally its just routine procedure after a certain length of time.

There's references in the older lore that they use vat grown servitors to grow the geneseed glands so they'll have enough geneseed for a *new* chapter.


Servotors being a very pleasant term for slave who’s whole existence is living in a vat until you are harvested. And according to the fluff suffering a lot while you are at it.

End of the day and getting back to the initial post, they made thousands of primaris but over 10000 years, it’s still tricky and geneseed is still a valuable commodity to a chapter, which may not get access to cawls bank of primaris again for centuries.

There is also the fact that they don’t want the geneseed falling into anyone else’s hands. It’s a huge risk to leave ot lying around the battle field for enemies to get hold of and do god knows what with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stephen1974 wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:

It's not that the Imperium can't make more space marines, the issue is the supply of gene-seed. Apothecaries are there to harvest fallen marines geneseed so they can immediately make more.

Marines typically have geneseed stores at their fortresses in case they can't harvest it from fallen brothers.


No, thats what the lore is telling you. What I'm saying is that the lore doesnt make sense anymore because Cawl is making Primaris. I simply dont buy that hes raiding gene seed vaults. He was given access to the same technology as the Emperor had at a time when they were churning out hundreds of thousands of Space Marines without the need to harvest gene seeds. The speed at which Space Marines were being made would have vastly out stripped the recovery rate from fallen marines.

Update on my understanding...

Researching more in to it, they dont NEED Gene seeds from fallen Space Marines to make new ones, but its FASTER if they do. They can grow the necessary genetic material inside humans and harvest it from them but this takes many years. That makes more sense than the old lore of the tech was lost and this is the only way. It just didnt work for making Primaris, but using humans to grow the material first. Thats how you get to make tens of thousands of Primaris in one go. Plot hole resolved.



There was no plot hole, you were just misunderstanding. The growing of geneseed is “old lore”, nothing new about it. First ever article about creating marines, it’s in there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/19 10:58:03


 
   
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Frame everything with that and you have your answer.

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I think there are also advantages to using geneseed from Marines rather than scratch grown geneseed.

This might be head canon but the 40k universe is a place that (rightly or wrongly) believes that learned traits can be passed down, so seasoned geneseed from a veteran of 1000 battles might be expected to produce better results than new stuff.


 
   
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Something to do is chapter can also farm the geneseeds by using servitors/criminals as unwilling host to grow new geneseed.

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