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Is there a Daemon Prince/Greater Daemon that is independent of their god?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Like the Daemon Prince/Greater Daemon in question betrays their god or something like that. To be frank, the main thing that stops me from playing chaos factions in the various video games is the fact that the chaos god can insta-gib you anytime anywhere.

I know that it's intentionally like that because chaos is demonic worshipping cultists and it makes no sense for that faction to not be at the total mercy of their god, but just out of curiosity, are there instances of Daemon Princes/Greater Daemons that become independent of their god?
   
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Belakor is demon prince of chaos undivided so and seems to have decent autonomy, I guess no on god would let the other pull his strings too much
   
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Belakor was an experiment by the Dark Gods to create an unaligned Prince. Belakor then turned out to be immensely powerful and didn't actually obey the Gods commands, so the Pantheon decided no more co-operation since they didn't ever want a situation where there could be loads of Belakors running around not doing what the Gods wanted.
   
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I would argue that maaaayyyyybbeeeeee The Quaestor from the second Fabius Bile novel is independent (though in the scene you meet it in it is in some form of servitude to the Emperor's Children).
It is not clear from the text, which god; or if indeed any that it serves. All that is hinted is that: 1- it was currently working for Fulgrim as when it puts Fabius on trial it mentions the "Phoenix's feather" (though that can also be a nod to ancient Egypt as it is what Bile's misdeeds are weighed against) and 2- It is probably the last Davinite Priest, warped now into a weird Slenderman-esq. entity.


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Nuremberg

Have they changed the background or something? Undivided Daemon Princes are definitely a thing. Greater Daemons not so much, but there is definitely space for GD strength daemons that are not aligned to one of the big four, unless the background for chaos has been radically altered.

   
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I'd need to go grab the Daemons 'dex to double-check, but isn't part of the reason that Skarbrand is Skarbrand because he tried to usurp Khorne?

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Skarbrand was the greatest of the Bloodthirsters until Tzeentch manipulated him into attacking Khorne. Skarbrand still serves Khorne as an avatar of pure rage that is simply pointed at an enemy and let loose.
   
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 Da Boss wrote:
Have they changed the background or something? Undivided Daemon Princes are definitely a thing.


In background, yes. But even then, the only known ones are Be'lakor and Daemon Primarchs like Lorgar. Rules wise they haven't been a thing for a long time. It's always been presented that gaining enough favor from all 4 main gods has been extremely hard and generally reserved for people like Abaddon and Horus or the Everchosens in Fantasy/AoS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/24 14:43:34


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UK

As I understand it the Greater Demons and lesser demons are basically manifestations of their Patron Gods. They are extensions of their Warp Living Will.

So they are at the same time individual and united.



Demon Princes are different as they are uplifted mortals. They need a powerful warp entity to give them the power and form of a demon prince and in turn become a direct part of the Chaos Warp entity.



Within the Warp itself there are many entities and the four Chaos Gods are simply the most powerful. There are many lesser creatures within the Warp that can create their own demon princes.

Of course power attracts interest so its likely that unaligned would be fought over and it might be that whilst your original patron demonic entity wasn't one of the core four, your soul could be stolen by one of them defeating the original demon.


So there's lots of scope for princes to be stolen and swapped and overall manipulated.

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The Chaos Gods *are* their Daemons (or their Daemons collectively comprise the God of you prefer). The Greater Daemons are not servants but extensions of the God.

So it’s a little like asking if my hand can work against the rest of me.

So the answer is... sort of? The Gods are utterly insane and capable of self destructive behaviour (look at Khorne worshipers predisposition to killing each other). If I was insane I could cut myself or cause other injuries that are detrimental to me. But even if I am doing that my hand is still obeying me; in my insanity I am making it strike against me.

So a Lord of Change might plot to overthrow Tzeenetch, but by doing so it is in effect fulfilling Tzeenetch’s will. God aligned Daemons are incapabale of actual independence IMO.
   
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The answer is somewhat complicated.

As mentioned before, the Gods have dolled out punishments to their daemons before--Belakor, Skarbrand, The Mask, Kairos--must mean that the more powerful daemons have some kind of autonomy and can work directly against their creator's wishes.

I imagine at least for Khorne, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch, there's a hierarchy to ascend that involves lots of backstabbing and sabotage of rivals, who might be working in the interests of their faction whose failure may directly impact their patron gods. I imagine this behavior is tolerated or even encouraged by the chaos gods as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. (On a side note, the only way I see Nurgle getting pissy with a follower is if they make goo-goo eyes at Isha and decide to be more like her than just Nurgle's plague carriers.)

Then there's the dual nature of each chaos god itself. Khorne is the god of bloodshed but also of honorable combat. Tzeentch is change, both for good and for ill. Nurgle is stagnation and decay but also of hope. Slaanesh is excess but also art and beauty. It's entirely possible that these positive aspects have their own daemons that work in direct contrast to the opposing aspect of their god--and we just don't see it because it's not grimdark enough.

That's why it's Chaos. It's formless and ill defined and can literally change based off of the perception of the people living in the galaxy.
   
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UK

I think the key is that whilst Chaos Demons can challenge their god; do have ranks; do have independent thinking; they are also all the same entity in the end as well. It's that warped duality that defies our understanding of the world.

It's the same as how Slaanesh never was until it was and then it always was within the Warp because time has no real meaning there.



For us its simple to describe but hard to get our heads around the concept in itself and how it functions. Because its laws of reality that don't work on our level. IT's the same as how a Chaos God can be separate from the thoughts of its billions of minions and yet at the same time its all one and the same creature.

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In terms of Undivided Daemon Princes?

Be’Lakor is the only one raised up by the Big Four collectively.

The others? There are more than just the 4 main Gods of Chaos, so they’re likely behind non-marked Daemon Princes.

   
 
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