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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Gents,

A vehicle is totally surrounded by a mob of angry men (and another tank).

Step 1) The opponent uses the Desperate Breakout stratagem to fall back with said vehicle (a 6-wounds-suffered Rhino, with a movement of 6". Just barely manages to clear 1" of the enemy moving sideways, being just under 4" wide)
Step 2) I use the "Cut Them Down" stratagem and deal only 2 mortal wounds, leaving Rhino with 8 suffered.
Condition and Confusion: While Rhino was not as badly crippled, it could fall back, but now, it cannot clear 1" of the enemy, meaning the move was illegal (since it can only move 3").

We were confused, because a Fall Back cannot even be attempted if you cannot clear 1" of the enemy with your entire move. However, attempting the Fall Back in the first place was required for the rhino to become so crippled.

Do we:
1) Let the Rhino fall back, then apply the 2 mortals? (technically violates Cut Them Down as the stratagem says 'before any models are moved')
2) The Rhino cannot fall back, but all CP are refunded (weird game-state but since the Fall Back cannot even be attempted the stratagems tehcnically wouldn't trigger. However, it can be attempted, since the Rhino is now on 4 wounds remaining.... aAAARGH!)
3) The Rhino cannot fall back, but all the CP was expended as if it HAD fallen back, but doesn't actually end up having fallen back. This is how we played it, but it seemed weird that a bunch of conditionals triggered only to find out that what triggered them in the first place was illegal (but only because they were triggered.... aAARGH!)
4) The Rhino is auto-destroyed since Desperate Breakout says this happens to models that cannot get outside 1" of the enemy. What happens to the Khorne Berzerkers inside it? At what point during the move do they get out? Does the Rhino get to finish its move and sit "atop" guardsmen until we finish resolving the Berserkers getting out? Could the Rhino Explode? Where does one measure from for Emergency Disembarkation stratagem if the 'zerkers wanted to survive? etc. etc.

help!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 02:25:41


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

They both seem to be used at the same time, so person whos turn it is would choose the order it seems.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 DeathReaper wrote:
They both seem to be used at the same time, so person whos turn it is would choose the order it seems.

The order of what?

Stratagems?

The order is pretty clearly "Desperate Breakout" (to allow the declaration to Fall Back in the first place) then "Cut them down!" (after an enemy unit declares Fall Back but before any models are moved).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 03:00:06


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Yes the order the strats are played in, they seem to be played at the same time so the player whos turn it is would choose the order..

If they are not played at the same time then there are no issues, as you resolve them in the order that they are used as they are not simultaneous.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 03:29:02


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes the order the strats are played in, they seem to be played at the same time so the player whos turn it is would choose the order..

If they are not played at the same time then there are no issues, as you resolve them in the order that they are used as they are not simultaneous.


Right.

So what happens when you resolve them in order? The order is clear, the consequences are not.

The rhino is not eligible to fall back, but only RETROACTIVELY, after it has already declared fall back (at which time it was eligible).

Does it continue to fall back, then automatically die? What happens to transported units in that case? Where do they measure from? Beginning of the move? The middle, the end where it died (but also could not reach)?

Can it choose not to fall back? If so, do we keep what happened (Despite there being no fall back and all the things triggering based on fall back)? Or do we refund the CP and the Rhino's wounds - at which point it can be eligible to fall back again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose it may help to post the order:

1) Desperate Breakout is played (the unit is now eligible to fall back if it can make it more than 1" from enemy units)

2) Fallback is declared, now that the rhino is eligible

3) Cut them Down is played now that Fall Back has been declared but before the Rhino moves. Cut them Down does 2 mortal wounds.

4) The Rhino can no longer make it more than 1" from enemy models (due to bracketing), so per Desperate Breakout, it dies ... or, if we're being generous, was never selected to fall back in the first place, since it is now ineligible.

5) If the rhino dies, where do the passengers measure from for disembarkation / emergency disembarkation? The location before it moved, when it was bracketed? Some abstract location during its move? The furthest extent of its move which it never reached due to death?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 03:43:38


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

CUT THEM DOWN
Use this Stratagem when an enemy unit Falls Back, before any models in that unit are moved. Roll one D6 for each model from your army that is within Engagement Range of that enemy unit; for each result of 6, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound.


DESPERATE BREAKOUT
Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase. Select one unit from your army that has not been selected to move this phase and which is in Engagement Range with at least one enemy unit. Roll one D6 for each model in that unit; for each result of 1, one model in that unit of your choice is destroyed. Assuming that unit was not destroyed, it can now attempt to Fall Back, and when doing so its models can be moved across enemy models as if they were not there. Any model in that unit that ends its Fall Back move within Engagement Range of any enemy model is destroyed. Assuming the unit is not destroyed, it cannot do anything else this turn (i.e. it cannot attempt to manifest psychic powers, shoot, declare a charge, be selected to fight etc.), even if it has a rule that would allow it to do so after Falling Back.


So, they are played at the same time (when a unit falls back), therefore sequencing is used, and the player whose turn it is, decides the order of operations. If its the rhinos players turn he decides to resolve DB first, and the rhino falls back, unless its destroyed on a roll of 1. It falls back through enemy models, and CTD is resolved. If its the other players turn CTD is resolved first, and if it loses enough wounds to cripple the rhino to the point where it doesnt have enough movement to stay out of engagement range it is destroyed, and models inside must immediately disembark, as per the normal rules when a transport is destroyed. It is destroyed after it has fallen back, and is still within engagement range. Or the rhino player decides to not fallback, because he doesnt have to. He can attempt to fallback, but doesnt have to. The spent CPs are lost, there is no refunding.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 04:12:27


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

No they are not played at the same time the first part of desperate breakout must resolve before the unit is falling back and cut them down can activate.

Strictly speaking it activates part way through the sequence

So resolves like this

Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase. Select one unit from your army that has not been selected to move this phase and which is in Engagement Range with at least one enemy unit. Roll one D6 for each model in that unit; for each result of 1, one model in that unit of your choice is destroyed. Assuming that unit was not destroyed, it can now attempt to Fall Back,

Use this Stratagem when an enemy unit Falls Back, before any models in that unit are moved. Roll one D6 for each model from your army that is within Engagement Range of that enemy unit; for each result of 6, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound.

it can now attempt to Fall Back, and when doing so its models can be moved across enemy models as if they were not there. Any model in that unit that ends its Fall Back move within Engagement Range of any enemy model is destroyed. Assuming the unit is not destroyed, it cannot do anything else this turn (i.e. it cannot attempt to manifest psychic powers, shoot, declare a charge, be selected to fight etc.), even if it has a rule that would allow it to do so after Falling Back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to the rest of those questions at the point the fallback move starterd it was eligible and your already halfway through the sequence for cut them down to
be activated their is no requirement for continuous eligibility checks so you continue to Fall back

If the Rhino dies you measure from where it died which at the time may be am impossible position as it could move across enemy models or may be unmoved if it died from cut them down

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 08:59:27


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Right, they are not played at the same time. The part with not rolling a 1 from DB must be resolved first. If the transport is not destroyed CTD is played. Then the other player rolls to see if any MW are inflicted. If the transport has enough movement left he can fall back beyond engagement range. If the damage is sufficient to reduce the movement of the rhino to not make it past enemy models the transport cant fall back at all, or its not enough to make it beyond engagement range. Then the rhino player can decide to not fall back, because he doesnt have to, or he decides to destroy his transport within engagement range of enemy models. Then models inside must disembark.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 p5freak wrote:
CUT THEM DOWN
Use this Stratagem when an enemy unit Falls Back, before any models in that unit are moved. Roll one D6 for each model from your army that is within Engagement Range of that enemy unit; for each result of 6, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound.


DESPERATE BREAKOUT
Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase. Select one unit from your army that has not been selected to move this phase and which is in Engagement Range with at least one enemy unit. Roll one D6 for each model in that unit; for each result of 1, one model in that unit of your choice is destroyed. Assuming that unit was not destroyed, it can now attempt to Fall Back, and when doing so its models can be moved across enemy models as if they were not there. Any model in that unit that ends its Fall Back move within Engagement Range of any enemy model is destroyed. Assuming the unit is not destroyed, it cannot do anything else this turn (i.e. it cannot attempt to manifest psychic powers, shoot, declare a charge, be selected to fight etc.), even if it has a rule that would allow it to do so after Falling Back.


So, they are played at the same time (when a unit falls back), therefore sequencing is used, and the player whose turn it is, decides the order of operations. If its the rhinos players turn he decides to resolve DB first, and the rhino falls back, unless its destroyed on a roll of 1. It falls back through enemy models, and CTD is resolved. If its the other players turn CTD is resolved first, and if it loses enough wounds to cripple the rhino to the point where it doesnt have enough movement to stay out of engagement range it is destroyed, and models inside must immediately disembark, as per the normal rules when a transport is destroyed. It is destroyed after it has fallen back, and is still within engagement range. Or the rhino player decides to not fallback, because he doesnt have to. He can attempt to fallback, but doesnt have to. The spent CPs are lost, there is no refunding.


Just one tiny little problem. CTD is played before model is moved. Thus you can't move the rhino first. Or if you do then CTD can't be played period. So DB negates CTM entirely by your logic.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

tneva82 wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
CUT THEM DOWN
Use this Stratagem when an enemy unit Falls Back, before any models in that unit are moved. Roll one D6 for each model from your army that is within Engagement Range of that enemy unit; for each result of 6, that enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound.


DESPERATE BREAKOUT
Use this Stratagem in your Movement phase. Select one unit from your army that has not been selected to move this phase and which is in Engagement Range with at least one enemy unit. Roll one D6 for each model in that unit; for each result of 1, one model in that unit of your choice is destroyed. Assuming that unit was not destroyed, it can now attempt to Fall Back, and when doing so its models can be moved across enemy models as if they were not there. Any model in that unit that ends its Fall Back move within Engagement Range of any enemy model is destroyed. Assuming the unit is not destroyed, it cannot do anything else this turn (i.e. it cannot attempt to manifest psychic powers, shoot, declare a charge, be selected to fight etc.), even if it has a rule that would allow it to do so after Falling Back.


So, they are played at the same time (when a unit falls back), therefore sequencing is used, and the player whose turn it is, decides the order of operations. If its the rhinos players turn he decides to resolve DB first, and the rhino falls back, unless its destroyed on a roll of 1. It falls back through enemy models, and CTD is resolved. If its the other players turn CTD is resolved first, and if it loses enough wounds to cripple the rhino to the point where it doesnt have enough movement to stay out of engagement range it is destroyed, and models inside must immediately disembark, as per the normal rules when a transport is destroyed. It is destroyed after it has fallen back, and is still within engagement range. Or the rhino player decides to not fallback, because he doesnt have to. He can attempt to fallback, but doesnt have to. The spent CPs are lost, there is no refunding.


Just one tiny little problem. CTD is played before model is moved. Thus you can't move the rhino first. Or if you do then CTD can't be played period. So DB negates CTM entirely by your logic.


Sequencing tells us that the players whose turn it is decides the order of operations. This means that DB is resolved first completely, and afterwards CTD is resolved. But sequencing doesnt apply here.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sequencing doesn't apply because DB is played before CTD, and CTD interrupts the resolution of DB

I would say that, as CTD is before any models are moved, the end result is that the rhino cannot now move. It cannot clear 1" away
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sequencing doesn't apply because DB is played before CTD, and CTD interrupts the resolution of DB

I would say that, as CTD is before any models are moved, the end result is that the rhino cannot now move. It cannot clear 1" away


So is the Rhino destroyed per the text of DB?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don’t think the rhino is destroyed.

The way I see it, this is how it is resolved:

1) Player one uses the strategem “desperate breakout” and selects one unit it their army that hasn’t been selected to move yet and is in engagement range of the enemy (in this case, a rhino) using up CPs to do so.
2) Player one rolls a d6 for the rhino and on a one the rhino is destroyed. If the rhino isn’t destroyed:
3) Decide if you will fallback with the rhino or not. If not, the sequence ends. If yes, this is where you check the movement stat to determine how far the unit can fall back.
4) Player two uses the strategem “cut them down” using CPs and this is resolved in full.
5) Player one now makes a fall back move. They already announced they are falling back so can’t now choose not to, also the distance of the fall back move was determined in step 3 above, before any MWs from “cut them down” were applied. The distance isn’t determined again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 13:49:22


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sequencing doesn't apply because DB is played before CTD, and CTD interrupts the resolution of DB

I would say that, as CTD is before any models are moved, the end result is that the rhino cannot now move. It cannot clear 1" away


So is the Rhino destroyed per the text of DB?


I think so, yes. You have to resolve CTD before you move the Rhino. Any damage inflicted would modify the Movement of the Rhino before it tries to Fall Back. If that means you now can't move far enough to stay 1" away the DB rules say you die. It's a weird interaction for sure, but I think the rules are pretty clear once everything's laid out.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Slipspace wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sequencing doesn't apply because DB is played before CTD, and CTD interrupts the resolution of DB

I would say that, as CTD is before any models are moved, the end result is that the rhino cannot now move. It cannot clear 1" away


So is the Rhino destroyed per the text of DB?


I think so, yes. You have to resolve CTD before you move the Rhino. Any damage inflicted would modify the Movement of the Rhino before it tries to Fall Back. If that means you now can't move far enough to stay 1" away the DB rules say you die. It's a weird interaction for sure, but I think the rules are pretty clear once everything's laid out.


Where do you measure from to disembark the unit inside? Where the rhino started? Middle sometime? End?

If the end has to hover over enemy units, do you hold it there in midair and measure from that?
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






If the rhino can legally move but still be within 1", it is destroyed and you measure from that location.

If the rhino cannot legally finish a move at all, it is destroyed where it started.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Rihgu wrote:
If the rhino can legally move but still be within 1", it is destroyed and you measure from that location.

If the rhino cannot legally finish a move at all, it is destroyed where it started.


It cannot finish a move without ending up on top of enemy models.

But it is explicitly given permission to move on top of enemy models, and an explicit provision for what happens when it does end on top of enemy models. (i.e. it dies).

We've established that it can legally finish a move, but that move finishes on top of enemy models. I suppose we do keep it hovering in the air, then, to measure from it?
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Hm, I guess it doesn't explicitly say that it can't end a move on top of enemy models.
I read "can be moved across as if they were not there" as allowing literally moving across. But without a note clarifying it a la the rule for Flying
FLYING
If a unit’s datasheet has the FLY keyword, then when it makes a Normal Move, an Advance or it Falls Back, its models can be moved across other models (and their bases) as if they were not there, and they can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models. In addition, any vertical distance up and/or down that they make as part of that move is ignored. However, these models cannot finish their move either on top of another model (or its base) or within Engagement Range of any enemy models.

You're right, there's no other rule to prevent it. So I guess you measure from wherever you decide the final position is before it is removed from play for ending within 1" of enemy models...

I suppose we do keep it hovering in the air, then, to measure from it?

Strictly speaking it would not be hovering, it would be occupying the same space (on the ground) as the models that are destroying it (as you're not given permission to lift up off the ground, just ignore the presence of enemy models)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 17:14:17


I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in us
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





However, you don't have permission to finish a move on top of another model or base.

From the FAQ
*Page 363 – Rare Rules
Add the following:
Moving Through Models Some models have a rule that enables them to ‘move through/over models’, or ‘move through/over models as if they were not there’. Sometimes such a rule will only apply to specific types of movement (e.g. Normal Moves, Advance moves, charge moves etc.) while other times it will apply to all types of movement. In any case, when moving a model with such a rule, it can be moved within Engagement Range of enemy models, but it can never finish a move on top of another model, or its base, and it cannot finish a Normal Move, Advance or Fall Back move within Engagement Range of any enemy models, and it can only end a charge move in Engagement Range of units it declared a charge against that phase).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 17:22:32


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

So it simply cannot move at all, and is destroyed.

I guess we played it wrong. :(
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

It happens in this game if you don’t want to take 30 minutes having a conversation over rare rules interactions.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






CTD occurs as a result of Falling Back, before moving the model, meaning the M value used when determining how far the rhino can move is determined at the time of declaring the Fall Back, and not after resolving the effect of the CTD.

Rhino declares Fall Back, which at the time is allowed 6" of movement. Before finalizing which direction and how far the rhino will actually move, CTD is declared, which is decidedly after Fall Back is declared, before the model is actually moved. Rhino takes additional wound, but moves as if it had not been taken down into lower damage bracket.

I don't see why it's required that you check it's movement value once when DB is declared then rechecked at the end of CTB's resolution. CTB interrupts the actual physical move, not how a Fall Back rule is applied.

Order of resolution would be:
1. DB is declared, which allows a Fall Back with additional rules. We know that [Fall Back: Model(s) move up to M"]; refer to rhino's damage chart to determine M"/
2. CTD is declared, which allows player to incur additional damage prior to moving the model that is Falling Back
3. Resolve damage from CTD
4. Model(s) are now displaced M" as determined in 1.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/03 00:02:51


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 skchsan wrote:
CTD occurs as a result of Falling Back, before moving the model, meaning the M value used when determining how far the rhino can move is determined at the time of declaring the Fall Back, and not after resolving the effect of the CTD.
I'm interested to see where you think the rules state this? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't see anything stating you are right.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 alextroy wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
CTD occurs as a result of Falling Back, before moving the model, meaning the M value used when determining how far the rhino can move is determined at the time of declaring the Fall Back, and not after resolving the effect of the CTD.
I'm interested to see where you think the rules state this? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't see anything stating you are right.
Because you use CTD "when an enemy unit Falls Back, before any models in that unit are moved" and not "when opponent uses DB" nor "when an enemy unit falls back". You couldn't have used the stratagem when a unit declares it will fall back/uses DB strat, thereby creating the 'it is sequencing/not sequencing' argument presented above.

You must have declared a unit will fall back, and have decided where to move the said unit in order for CTD to be eligible to be used, ergo, you've already determined what its M value is. Nothing in the rules state determining M value is dynamic as presented above (i.e. "the M value changes during the course of the resolution, therefore the latest value must be used" argument).
   
 
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