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Made in eg
[MOD]
Keeper of the Adeptus Arbites Flame






Cairo, Egypt

Building IG for years I am quite used to the idea that a $35 infantry kit will lack most of the special weapon options, all of the heavy weapon options and nearly all the sergeant options. (The 20 year overdue upgrade sprue addresses some of these issues but not all).

Building marines recently I noted they have the same issues, you get 1 or 2 heave weapons options but if you want a las cannon or multimelta you need to go to bitz sites, convert or buy a Dev squad. And even the Dev squad does not have the options to build all configurations, you get only 2 of each heavy, so a 4 lascannon squad requires 2 boxes.

Not to mention the plethora of Sergeant options you won't find in a single box.

And so on.

This was not as much of a problem in the days of metal and blisters when you could get a single lascannon marine but is just annoying now.

Which may explain why Primaris squads tend to have only one weapon option.

I can think of a few vehicles that have all their options in the box: Sentinels, Chimeras, Rhinos. Leman Russ tanks used to, but then GW saved themselves 25 cents by cutting the accessory sprue so now you don't have a heavy stubber or HK missile.

Are there any boxes with everything you're allowed to build in it?

 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Les Etats Unis

Don't quote me, but I believe Fire Warriors have all their options in the kit.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Yes. Anything Primaris.

And Necrons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 10:00:52


 
   
Made in gb
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Luton, England

Most new kits have all the options in the box, this is often achieved by reducing the options available on the datasheet to match what is in the kit.

The main exceptions to this are new versions of old models where they still allows some of the old options on the datasheet, or various marine units where the datasheet has to cover lots of special release options on single model srg/lt etc...

30,000pts
12,000pts
2,000pts
4,000pts
4,000pts
2,000pts
4,000pts
2,000pts 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Ogryns/Bullgryns have all options + Nork.

~5900 build and painted 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Tyranids tend to come with all their options.

GSC tend to come with the one of each option on some.

   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Fire Warriors
Anything Custodian
Rubric Marines
Stormsurge
Ghostkeel
Broadside
Heavy Weapon Teams

   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Broodlord
The Swarmlord
Neurothrope
Tyranid Prime
Old One Eye
Malanthrope (Forgeworld)
Tervigon

Tyranid Warriors
Genestealers
Termagants
Ripper Swarms
Hormagaunts

Hive Guard
Lictor
Zoanthropes
Venomthropes
Tyrant Guard
Deathleaper
Pyrovores
Haruspex
Maleceptor

Gargoyles
Raveners
The Red Terror
Mucolid Spores
Spore Mines
Meiotic Spores (Forgeworld)
Dimachaeron
Sky Slasher Swarm (Forgeworld)

Screamer-Killers
Thornbacks, Stone-Crusher (Forgeworld)
Biovores
Tyrannofex
Mawloc
Toxicrene
Trygon
Trygon Prime


Tyrannocyte

Harpy
Hive Crone

Sporocyst

Barbed Hierodule (Forgeworld)
Scythed Hierodule (Forgeworld)
Harridan (Forgeworld)
Hierophant Bio-titan (Forgeworld)

I just think you are frustrated because you are in the wrong army. Perosnally I have never had any problems getting the weapons I need. Either by swaping, acomulating over multiple kits or just buying the missing gun.

Shouled any leader packadge come with 6 gun options, 5 pistol options, 4 combi options, 14 melee weapons a jump pack and a stormshield? No, that is just wated plastic. Is it a bit anoying that the multimelta dreadnought currently produced is only found in the SW kit? Yes. Yes it is. Though there are plenty second hand multi meltas and assault on black recah dreadnoughts out there.

   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I agree with Niial, I think you just happen to be in the army that got shafted the most. Bloody stupid of GW to remove the accessory sprue just to sell it back to you. Personally I'm not too fussed on the IG squads lacking, you can get extra guns quite easily now by going aftermarket or 3D printed, and as Niial said, I'd rather do that then spend a fair bit more* on a huge number of extra parts that I will likely never need.

*I've mentioned this before and people have said "oh well it's not that much more plastic, won't cost much extra at all", but this is GW we're talking about.

   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Also, forge world offers a lot of comi weapons and heavy weapons. The only thing they do not have (sadly) is gravity guns. But I enjoy the option.

You also have 3rd party that offers anything you are lacking. Or 3D printing.

I do believe that GW is living in 'interetsing times'.

   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

 Niiai wrote:
Termagants
Are Spike Rifles not an option anymore?
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Off top of my head Meganobz have all the options in their kit.


 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

beast_gts wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Termagants
Are Spike Rifles not an option anymore?


They went the way of the DoDo. And the webber flamer. Good riddance I suppose. (The difference between S3 range 18 and S4 range 12 is not that distinct on a small unit that mostly functuion as cannonfodder.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 10:42:11


   
Made in gb
Badass "Sister Sin"






Make of this what you will, but a brief wracking of the sad grey matter I’m told is my brain, it’s really only Imperial stuff which doesn’t get all the options.

Orks have of course been somewhat more restricted with their new Codex. But even before then, it was really only the Finecast/Metal stuff which didn’t give the full suite of options. Mega Nobz do spring to mind, as you didn’t get three of each Kombi-Shoota. Even looking at the sprues I’m not sure I’m right on that count.

War Walkers and Wraithlords also only come with a single Heavy Weapon sprue, when they can potentially double up on each option. Other than that, I think they’ve got Complete Suite kits?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




Nids do miss a few things.

Warriors have only one pair of each melee weapon per model, so a typical cheap dual scything talons setup needs to be sourced elsewhere. No way to get two pairs of boneswords either, but that's not an issue because GW refuses to give us any meaningful rule for having two pairs of swords.

Tyrants and carnifexes are missing a second pair of smaller guns for some dakka setups.

Tyrants also do not have monstrous boneswords or monstrous rending claws, only one sword and a lash whip.

We have it pretty good.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Well anything recent cus' gw is no longer doing the 'weapons not in the box' thing. But IIRC sisters of battle comes with actually everything a regular SoB squad can take, including 2x of each special?

I guess you could conceivably take 2x5 sisters and you wouldn't have 2x of the same superior equipment or 2x of the same heavy weapon, and there is only one banner lady in the box I believe though there are 2 banner tops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 11:33:45


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

 the_scotsman wrote:
But IIRC sisters of battle comes with actually everything a regular SoB squad can take, including 2x of each special?
There's no multi-melta.
   
Made in eg
[MOD]
Keeper of the Adeptus Arbites Flame






Cairo, Egypt

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Make of this what you will, but a brief wracking of the sad grey matter I’m told is my brain, it’s really only Imperial stuff which doesn’t get all the options.



Chaos also, but yeah I think I see your point. The human and human-adjacent factions tend to have a lot of options since they are ultimately based on something real world, so it's easy for writers to throw in new ideas even when they outstrip the ability of model makers to support.

But I think it's also largely a result of how the packaging and sales changed. In RT days till... 6th? you could get individual models in blisters so making a marine tac squad with no lascannon was no big deal. Spend another $5 and get the las cannon blister. No reason not to offer 8 different heavy weapon options for a squad.

The change to box sets and sprues from individual metal figures means that adding a las cannon (etc) means adding a whole other sprue. A sprue which could be sold separately for a lot more

While Primaris squads with their one weapon choice per squad seem to accommodate this, legacy Marines, IG etc require a lot of 3rd party shopping to actually make the army you want.

Basically the problem goes all the way back to RT and not being able to decide if this is an RPG where it matters a lot if Sgt Heroguy has a sword or an axe or a mace, or is it a wargame where there's 100 guys per side and no one cares if Private Gruntalot has a drum clip or banana clip on his rifle.

Obviously a 3d printer changes all of this, but if you're doing that who cares what GW puts in a kit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Niiai wrote:


Shouled any leader packadge come with 6 gun options, 5 pistol options, 4 combi options, 14 melee weapons a jump pack and a stormshield? No, that is just wated plastic. Is it a bit anoying that the multimelta dreadnought currently produced is only found in the SW kit? Yes. Yes it is. Though there are plenty second hand multi meltas and assault on black recah dreadnoughts out there.


I got the Marine Commander set and while I knew it would not have EVERYTHING, I was pissed that he only gets one lightning claw and no thunder hammer.

Yes, yes, yes, I have literally six boxes full of bitz including a marine only box but still

And of course he only gets a sword option, no power axe or power maul. Personally I think it was pants-on-the-head stupid for GW to decide, in a game with 100+ models on each side, that swords, axes and maces are all different weapons with different rules. But they did.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 11:56:23


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Mega Nobz do spring to mind, as you didn’t get three of each Kombi-Shoota. Even looking at the sprues I’m not sure I’m right on that count.


Actually that kit covers all the options. Each kombi shoota has 3 different barrels to choose from (standard kombi shoota, kombi rokkit, kombi skorcha), in order to cover every possible combination. There are also 3 pair of killsaws and all the options for the big mek, including a dedicated power klaw.


 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Compounding something further SW, BA have special guns. (Frost gun, hand flamer and melta pistol.) Death Company have that non-necron-sword-I-swear and the maces. (I do not know any other SM that comes with maces.)

Me for my part really like the options. Also, any ork player at 18+ without handicaps should be able to kitash a cool powerclaw.

Aletarntivly they should limit the options to what is on the spruce. Like the deathguards did, and that sucked for them. Wytches got the same treatmeant, but or worked out great for them. Also, this depends on the editions. In the old days many of the components in the SW and Nid spruces had spesific rules, but they do not any more. Currently it works out great that frost weapons are just a CP upgrade.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Niiai wrote:
Wytches got the same treatmeant, but or worked out great for them. Also, this depends on the editions. .


The limiting options to whats on the sprue isnt exactly what made Wyches and Skitarii good, it was just that they made their base stats so pants-on-head bonkers that they literally dont need special weapons basically at all anymore.

A wych is as strong in combat post-9th as a wych with a special weapon in 8th, and costs the same, so the only special you need is one net to make Fall Back stronger...maybe. Maybe not even that because wyches just instantly shred anything they touch. Same with skitarii. Why would i arm my skitarii with an anti tank weapon when they can literally just dump a billion mortal wounds or autowound on 5s to hit?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Are you telling me that the wytch unit are worse of beeing able to take one of each weapon options vs beeing able to take two weapons of their choise?

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Niiai wrote:
Are you telling me that the wytch unit are worse of beeing able to take one of each weapon options vs beeing able to take two weapons of their choise?


I mean yes, if they hadnt massively boosted up their base stats, it would have ended up being a nerf.

it was only a buff because a wych with a special wepaon before does less damage than a wych without a special weapon now.

Same deal with skitarii exactly.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

It's the weird stratagems that boosted Skitarii, not the reduction in Specials.

And the reduction in Specials is something I won't forgive them for. We had the ability to build triples in 10s. Now even at 20 you can't triple up on one weapon.

Plasma Calivers were the problem. They should have been limited to Vanguard and points on Vanguard adjusted accordingly.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

 the_scotsman wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
Are you telling me that the wytch unit are worse of beeing able to take one of each weapon options vs beeing able to take two weapons of their choise?


I mean yes, if they hadnt massively boosted up their base stats, it would have ended up being a nerf.

it was only a buff because a wych with a special wepaon before does less damage than a wych without a special weapon now.

Same deal with skitarii exactly.


That argument does not go in the favour of your statemet.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






The Space Marine Devastator kit comes with a crap-ton of options. Probably not everything, but LOTS of Heavy weapons (12), and a bunch of Sergeant options.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Kanluwen wrote:
It's the weird stratagems that boosted Skitarii, not the reduction in Specials.

And the reduction in Specials is something I won't forgive them for. We had the ability to build triples in 10s. Now even at 20 you can't triple up on one weapon.

Plasma Calivers were the problem. They should have been limited to Vanguard and points on Vanguard adjusted accordingly.


the limitation of various units to the contents of their kit has nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with GW not wanting people to leave their eco system.

Previously, making it so it was optimal to run a squad with weapons they didnt come with in the box was a good way to drive extra sales, because regardless of whether people bought from GW or bought bits from third party, say, ebay, GW made money either way.

now, if you buy extra special weapons, the odds are fairly good that youre either getting stuff from a recaster, or getting a 3d printed third party bit, or at the very least youre going to be algorithmically recommended recasted items or 3d printed items.

GW absolutely is not changing kits over to the only whats in the box setup for game balance reasons, theyre trying to find the line where they can do that without provoking social media backlash.

They played kid gloves with Space Marines because they always do, it's the #1 customer base they try to avoid pissing off. They started with Plague Marines, got some backlash for that.

then they experimented with it in the Dark Eldar book - can we limit a unit to only kit options if we make sure to give the unit a nice buff at the same time? They went with Wyches, and kept Scourges the same, because Scourges historically have been defined by that old 'one in the box but you really need 4' GW chestnut, and there was no way to move them over without making them basically useless unless you just...gave them all their mixed special weaponry for free, or something.

And then with Skitarii they tried the same tactic - make sure skitarii are nice and strong in the new book (Especially if you buy the new skitarii commander!) and limit them to kit options.

with Kommandos, they had the luxury of designing a new kit, so they got to be even more creative - limit to what's in the kit, but make sure that you can build any model either with or without the special option...and also make sure the base rules for the unit were super super buffed so there's no complaining about them being mechanically clunky. Nostalgic players are happy, because options like Burna/Big Shoota/Rokkit are back babyy, Competitive players are happy, because you can run basically naked kommandos and theyre a very competitive kit, and nobody gets the feel bads.

I also think theyre getting better at doing their research about finding what peoples "Pet Peeves" are with a particular codex and making sure they hit them right on the nose to try and drum up better PR. Things like the thousand sons getting 1 in 5 soulreaper cannons back and heavily nerfing Tzaangor units despite them not being strong like, at all definitely feel like theyre gathering data on what people complained about online about the previous dex and going out of their way to hammer it as a selling point for the new one.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




The Helbrute. I was very surprised by this because as a CSM you are used to steal your weapons from imperials or ask Kromlech/ spellcrow .
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

That's a lot of words to try to justify what was literally a game balance decision.

Nobody was "buying from recasters" on Skitarii special weapons. There was a single shared box for Rangers and Vanguard. There was no single special weapon body nor was there one specific backpack or other limiting factor. You could literally build all 3 if you really wanted to.

But you didn't want Arquebi on Vanguard. You didn't want Calivers on Rangers unless you were just spamming Plasma.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 19:42:47


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Space Marine Devastator kit comes with a crap-ton of options. Probably not everything, but LOTS of Heavy weapons (12), and a bunch of Sergeant options.


The SM devastator kit has nearly as many meele weapons as the whole chaos terminator kit.

Let that sink.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
 
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