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Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

So in a recent tournament orks tabled drukhari turn one in the finals. Something similar happened in the semi finals.

The ork list is all of the good shooting fast moving things in a speedwhag and freebooters hitting on 4+. The drukhari got first turn, tryed to charge turn 1 and wrap around to deny moving out of combat. Of course this did not happen, and some 2000 dice of dakka later there are no elves to be seen.

This is an exstre case. Drukhari is a glass cannon list, and the speedwhag just has a good matchup.

But here is the rub: How on earth do GW balance such an odd clan trait as freebootas? +1 in BS is an increase in 50% lethalathy in shooting. You can not just crank up all shooting units by a lot of points, essentially hurting all the non freebooters by a tonn.

This is similar to how difficult is was to balance ossiarch bone reapers in AoS when one of them had +1 to Armour save witch was a big deal.

How on earth can the orks be balanced? When balancing you balance for the cealing of the army, but the floor for all non freebooters will be devestating.

Thoughts are welcome.

   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






I think like you said, this is a fringe case and tournaments often have something like this where a list that happens to hard counter the meta lists taken by other people does exceedingly well when it would otherwise flounder against different armies. It's also shown that the Drukhari player gambled his T1 from going first to try and tie up with the opponent's stuff and fluffed his rolls, leaving him exposed in optimal range and at the mercy of an army basically made to take out his kind of army.

You also have to factor that all the other placements were still the usual suspects of Dark Eldar et friends and only one Ork list structured like this managed to make its way to the top. You would have more of a basis for a nerf if the top 5 lists were carbon copies of this Ork list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/27 18:23:52


 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

Well it could be that the game is perfectly fine and nothing needs to get nerfed.

*sideways glaces over at the admech archaeopter strataraptor*

Spoiler:
180 points for.

2X
Cognis heavy stubber
36" Assault 4 S4 AP0 D1

2X
Heavy phosphor blaster
36" Heavy 3 S6 AP-2 D1
Each time an attack is made with this weapon, the target does not receive the benefits of Dense Cover against that attack.

Twin cognis lascannon
48" Assault 2 S9 AP-3 D3+3

BS3+, T7, 10W
-1 to hit. -1 Damage
180 points.


But I was thinking more if they where ro nerf the orks on the background of the speedwhag freeboters, how could GW do it?

   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Grimskul wrote:
I think like you said, this is a fringe case and tournaments often have something like this where a list that happens to hard counter the meta lists taken by other people does exceedingly well when it would otherwise flounder against different armies. It's also shown that the Drukhari player gambled his T1 from going first to try and tie up with the opponent's stuff and fluffed his rolls, leaving him exposed in optimal range and at the mercy of an army basically made to take out his kind of army.

You also have to factor that all the other placements were still the usual suspects of Dark Eldar et friends and only one Ork list structured like this managed to make its way to the top. You would have more of a basis for a nerf if the top 5 lists were carbon copies of this Ork list.
If the DE had played back and hid the result would have been the same, except it would have taken him until turn 2 to be effectively wiped of the table.

As for how you balance this. Realistically, you don't really. Things like this is why free rules should not exist. X, Y and Z are unlikely to be comparable enough to allow them to be interchangeable without cost.

(besides, there is no hiding from flyers)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/27 18:36:27


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Niiai wrote:
So in a recent tournament orks tabled drukhari turn one in the finals. Something similar happened in the semi finals.

The ork list is all of the good shooting fast moving things in a speedwhag and freebooters hitting on 4+. The drukhari got first turn, tryed to charge turn 1 and wrap around to deny moving out of combat. Of course this did not happen, and some 2000 dice of dakka later there are no elves to be seen.

This is an exstre case. Drukhari is a glass cannon list, and the speedwhag just has a good matchup.

But here is the rub: How on earth do GW balance such an odd clan trait as freebootas? +1 in BS is an increase in 50% lethalathy in shooting. You can not just crank up all shooting units by a lot of points, essentially hurting all the non freebooters by a tonn.

This is similar to how difficult is was to balance ossiarch bone reapers in AoS when one of them had +1 to Armour save witch was a big deal.

How on earth can the orks be balanced? When balancing you balance for the cealing of the army, but the floor for all non freebooters will be devestating.

Thoughts are welcome.


I will point out the freebootas trait is....exactly, exactly the same as it was in the previous codex with no problems.

The problem is the overtuned shooting units like Wazboms and Squigbuggies. They need to go up in price.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





 Niiai wrote:


But here is the rub: How on earth do GW balance such an odd clan trait as freebootas? +1 in BS is an increase in 50% lethalathy in shooting. You can not just crank up all shooting units by a lot of points, essentially hurting all the non freebooters by a tonn.


W:th free bonuses you don't.

There's basically 2 ways to get these balanced: a) effects of subfaction need to be very minor(and even this is just minimizing damage). This is way aos3 is going for b) you pay points for subfaction. Wanna take dakkajet? Cost different whether you are goff(what benefit dakkajet gets from goff anyway?) Or freeboota.

2021 painted/bought: 857/1043 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I mean it’s not just +1 bs…the freebooter gets nothing until a freebooter unit wipes out an entire unit first….(each turn)
So your telling me someone lost because they tried to glasscannon msu list and failed mutilple roles and played poorly?
Tell me more how this is the winning players fault.
The fact remains orky aren’t exactly tearing up the tournament meta subjective fringe case of someone winning and all. Heck nearly every Meta analysis has drukari as the most broken faction in game currently and orks somewhere in the 5-10 codex rank…with drukari clear 1, ad mech, greyknights, with space marines,
Eldari combined arms, Tsons, orks and custodies in a tier 2 grouping.
I mean drukari has a 70% plus win rate and you’re crying about them losing to an ork list? First world problems I guess
Maybe after drukari gets beaten down with the nerf hammer for a while we can come back to this topic.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/27 22:49:00


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/10/27 21:22:49


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




It’s one game in one tournament…..
Yeah it’s headline grabbing but to my knowledge orks aren’t routinely sweeping to wins in every tournament. If it becomes a consistent pattern then yeah it’s a problem. We need a sample size of greater than one to make that assessment IMO.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Niiai wrote:
...But here is the rub: How on earth do GW balance such an odd clan trait as freebootas? +1 in BS is an increase in 50% lethalathy in shooting. You can not just crank up all shooting units by a lot of points, essentially hurting all the non freebooters by a tonn.

This is similar to how difficult is was to balance ossiarch bone reapers in AoS when one of them had +1 to Armour save witch was a big deal.

How on earth can the orks be balanced? When balancing you balance for the cealing of the army, but the floor for all non freebooters will be devestating.

Thoughts are welcome.


This is basically the same balancing act GW's been trying and failing at all of 8e/9e with every army. If you make the unit good without the buff stack then with the buff stack it's way too good, and if you make the unit not broken with the buff stack it's unplayably bad without it, so we end up in this weird equilibrium state where if you're playing the netlists set up to make perfect efficiency out of the buff stack the game sort of works, and if you aren't it doesn't.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




There is nothing new about this list. The ork codex dropped 3 months ago. This type of list has been used in nearly every tournament since. 3 months later someone beat the current fotm net list doesn’t mean the sky is falling.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

This is not about the sky is falling. Or 'crying about drukahri losing to orks' gungo puts it. At leats not me.

If the orks need a nerf, and I am not saying they do, how do you fix it? Point increases to balance for cealings means that floors get really low.

Picture the following senario: Freeboters in speedwhaaag becomes the premiere way to play orks. GW responds by increasing points on all shooting units to the point where it becomes balanced for these lists. Would this not put the units out of reach for cassual players who are not running freeboters. Going from BS5 to 4 seems like such a huge gap. (Also, this works in melee as well, right? Hitting on 2's.)

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You are making tons of leaps in judgement…
You are literally assuming freebooters list are the problem. I don’t even think freebooters are the best performing tournament list. Bloodaxe buggy spam has been performing just as good if not better..
-freebooters provide a boost to shooting but the buggies are still countered by being locked in combat and having poor melee profiles.. (which btw the drukari players failed to do since he played and rolled bad).
-Bloodaxe lists forgo the boost to shooting to remove the counter by receiving the benefit to fall back and shoot….
You can’t even mix these 2 detachments because freebooters almost requires you to go all in on freebooters to work.

Give and take that’s how these lists are balanced
Every other drukari player for the last 3 months have been beating freebooters list by locking the shooting buggies in combat. The 1 time someone epically failed you are talking about nerfing orks…. R you serious?

Your comment on orks getting a +1 to hit in melee is laughably bad. Do you not realize +1 to hit is capped?
It’s obvious you don’t know a lot about orks… this is one of the ork codex poorly designed problems..
Here is just a list off the top of my head.

All warbosses +1 hit in melee aura
Snagga boss +1 to hit melee aura to snagga only
All snaggas +1 to hit vehicle and monsters
Tankbustas +1 to hit vehicles
Freebooters +1 to hit kultur
Mekboss buzz grob +1 to hit on any dread unit
Waaagh banner +1 to hit melee aura
Zodgrod superrunts +1 to hit Gretchin unit
And the grot gunners, gitfinders, wing missiles, etc adding +1 to hit
Snikrot +1 hit bloodaxe commandos
Big krumpas specialist detachment +1 to hit melee
I might have missed a few in there too.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/27 22:42:24


 
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

gungo wrote:
The 1 time someone epically failed you are talking about nerfing orks…. R you serious?


 Niiai wrote:

If the orks need a nerf, and I am not saying they do, how do you fix it?

   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Niiai, I think the fundamental problem have pointed out is that the only way to change it is to change how subfaction traits inherently work in the game, because of how many interact with certain units optimally compared to others. So it would basically require to rewrite how subfaction rules work in each codex or make you pay points for them as another poster mentioned.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You do realize that is still talking about it? I mean my statement can’t be any clearer.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





gungo wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…
always amusing to see a nobody on the internet call one of the best players in the world bad for not charging units he couldn't reach and not managing to win a roll-off to prevent a retreat from combat.
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz




North Carolina

Freebooterz is really a 2 part problem:

1. Undercosted wazboms and squig buggies 2. The ability of flyers to turn 1 alpha strike

The first problem is easy to fix. The second problem is really a problem with aircraft, but it’s been hidden by the fact most aircraft are way overpriced. I would just make it so aircraft have to start in strategic reserve and potentially also decrease the number of flyers in most detachments.

Speedwaaagh will die soon and the ork book will languish in the mid tier and sometimes act as a gatekeeper. Too many of the melee tools are too expensive and don’t do enough damage while having nearly 0 survivability. The book has almost 0 strats worth mentioning and few synergies (seriously look at how many add 1 to hit roll buffs the book has).

In an ideal world GW would rebalance the ork book by dropping boyz a point and buffing some melee units while nerfing the speedwaaagh. Unfortunately I think they’ll just bring the hammer down and let orks suffer.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

One of the guys on Goonhammer has suggested that GW should make the detachments such that you can only bring 1 flyer per battalion or brigade, which would nerf both the Freebooterz list and the AdMech thopter spam. Most other armies would be unaffected as their flyers are pretty expensive and thus rarely taken.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
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 Mr_Rose wrote:
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ordana wrote:
gungo wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…
always amusing to see a nobody on the internet call one of the best players in the world bad for not charging units he couldn't reach and not managing to win a roll-off to prevent a retreat from combat.

I mean he advanced forward and left himself on the open on a gunline army. What did he think was going to happen? He got outplayed badly and publicly. If he was relying on a roll off to win grats on losing the coin toss… he gambled and lost simple as that… from one nobody on the Internet to the next nobody on the Internet go white Knight somewhere else.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

gungo wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
gungo wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…
always amusing to see a nobody on the internet call one of the best players in the world bad for not charging units he couldn't reach and not managing to win a roll-off to prevent a retreat from combat.

I mean he advanced forward and left himself on the open on a gunline army. What did he think was going to happen? He got outplayed badly and publicly. If he was relying on a roll off to win grats on losing the coin toss… he gambled and lost simple as that… from one nobody on the Internet to the next nobody on the Internet go white Knight somewhere else.
What do you think he should've done instead?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The ork player played well by deploying his buggies behind his flyer wall deep into his own deployment knowing Sean had no real range threat to him…

Sean had 2 choices gamble on making long advance and charge rolls or use cover and distance to stay out of range of the orks which have limited range on thier weapons (except flyers). (Btw he rolled a 1 on advance). The kmk have 36in range and can’t really move… the squig buggies only move 10in and have 1x 36 range weapon each…
The scrapjets have 10in movement and the only 36in weapon is a big shoota…warbikers do best with 14 movement but 18in dakkaguns. the rest of the shooting is 12-24in range at best (a few 8in range weapons in there too)

This is a mid board list with the dakkajets being the main ability to reach across the board… and without the ork player using speedwaagh Dakkajets are a bit underwhelming. Most of those drukari transports should survive. I mean Sean still should have lost in the end as it was a bad matchup.

I mean he could have gotten out of range/line of sight…he chose to gamble and adv and charge across the entire board… unfortunately his dice didn’t cooperate…He advanced tried to wrap up the Mek guns, rolled to low they backed up or died and left his army outside of combat in a bad spot. He got mowed down by the gunline in easy max shots for Dakka/rapid fire range and gave his opponent easy charges to follow up on.. I mean rapid fire/Dakka half range isn’t exactly a new concept in 40K either. He literally gave his opponent the most amount of shots he could possibly have.

for the last 3 months drukari have been beating similar ork freebooter lists regularly!!!! This isn’t some new revelation or new overpowered ork list… it’s been played a lot already. And beaten by other players playing drukari.

I mean the biggest issue with this battle was logan being able to box in thier deployment using terrain and the fact he was able to create an impenetrable wall of flyers preventing drukari from charging his buggies. So Sean tried to wrap the Mek guns.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/10/28 13:28:29


 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Freeboota trait is hard to "fix" as it's a bonus that needs to be triggered and it's actually a gamble. In fact in small games or in mixed klan lists there are solid odds that the bonus is not triggered, while full Freeboota lists or mostly Freeboota lists may lack some punch in combat. Against armies that don't have MSU the trait is hard to trigger as well.

Easiest fix is to raise the points costs of those few shooty units that once spammed makes a Freeboota list (possibly) very powerful. Scrapjet, Squigbuggy and Dakkajet can, and will, go up a few points. Wazbom at 200 points is not cheap, let alone undercosted.

And if anything there's a significant lot of Drukhari stuff that needs points hikes with higher priority than ork most spammable units.

The trait is fine.


 
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





United Kingdom

 Blackie wrote:
Freeboota trait is hard to "fix" as it's a bonus that needs to be triggered and it's actually a gamble. In fact in small games or in mixed klan lists there are solid odds that the bonus is not triggered, while full Freeboota lists or mostly Freeboota lists may lack some punch in combat. Against armies that don't have MSU the trait is hard to trigger as well.

Easiest fix is to raise the points costs of those few shooty units that once spammed makes a Freeboota list (possibly) very powerful. Scrapjet, Squigbuggy and Dakkajet can, and will, go up a few points. Wazbom at 200 points is not cheap, let alone undercosted.

And if anything there's a significant lot of Drukhari stuff that needs points hikes with higher priority than ork most spammable units.

The trait is fine.


I agree with rukkatrukks and dakkajets going up a little. Scrapjets I'm 50/50 on because of all the buggies, the rukkatrukk is actually the "problem" one. And I agree that Wazboms are certainly not undercosted.

The guy even took Dragstas and KBBs, which people don't run because they're somewhere on the scale of meh to alright.

This seems to be a very heavily skewed list, tailor made to chew through Drukhari, being played well and with very good rolling. And Orks have been basically designed around skew for as long as I can remember.

Unfortunately for the Drukhari player, they were outplayed in deployment and then crippled when their risky play to get back into it failed and then rolled very poorly.

If Drukhari and Ad Mech are tier one armies at the moment, then Orks are tier two with a favourable Drukhari matchup at best. These skew lists have been all over the place for the last three months with no concern, and people are only losing their minds because of an Ork player having a great game and a Drukhari one having a bad one. These things happen and are an inherent risk of a game based around randomness.

I remember games last edition where losing most of my army turn one and the game being decided at the beginning of turn two was a fairly common occurrence, and people didn't do anything about it then. They just doubled down and tried to get rid of the rest of my list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 08:05:30


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Maybe if GW limit flyers to 1 per detachment that will take the edge of the more oppressive Ork lists? (And also for Ad Mech)
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Inbound CSM treatment, in which anything that can^t pick mark of slaanesh can't afford to play certain shooty unit due to one, ONE, stratagem.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Afrodactyl wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Freeboota trait is hard to "fix" as it's a bonus that needs to be triggered and it's actually a gamble. In fact in small games or in mixed klan lists there are solid odds that the bonus is not triggered, while full Freeboota lists or mostly Freeboota lists may lack some punch in combat. Against armies that don't have MSU the trait is hard to trigger as well.

Easiest fix is to raise the points costs of those few shooty units that once spammed makes a Freeboota list (possibly) very powerful. Scrapjet, Squigbuggy and Dakkajet can, and will, go up a few points. Wazbom at 200 points is not cheap, let alone undercosted.

And if anything there's a significant lot of Drukhari stuff that needs points hikes with higher priority than ork most spammable units.

The trait is fine.


I agree with rukkatrukks and dakkajets going up a little. Scrapjets I'm 50/50 on because of all the buggies, the rukkatrukk is actually the "problem" one. And I agree that Wazboms are certainly not undercosted.

The guy even took Dragstas and KBBs, which people don't run because they're somewhere on the scale of meh to alright.

This seems to be a very heavily skewed list, tailor made to chew through Drukhari, being played well and with very good rolling. And Orks have been basically designed around skew for as long as I can remember.

Unfortunately for the Drukhari player, they were outplayed in deployment and then crippled when their risky play to get back into it failed and then rolled very poorly.

If Drukhari and Ad Mech are tier one armies at the moment, then Orks are tier two with a favourable Drukhari matchup at best. These skew lists have been all over the place for the last three months with no concern, and people are only losing their minds because of an Ork player having a great game and a Drukhari one having a bad one. These things happen and are an inherent risk of a game based around randomness.

I remember games last edition where losing most of my army turn one and the game being decided at the beginning of turn two was a fairly common occurrence, and people didn't do anything about it then. They just doubled down and tried to get rid of the rest of my list.


Exactly. The solution should aim to address the chance of spamming stuff rather than nerfing units: one flyer per detachment (and maybe even 0 for vanguards, outriders, spearheads) could be something but I'd go even further by removing squadrons from units that are made by 100ish points models. Koptas or mek gunz make sense as squadrons, tanks or buggies on bases that are almost imperial knight sized not so. So no more than 3x for each buggy could really help here. OP lists that spam buggies would be nerfed but those who just bring 1-3 of a specific kind of buggy won't be affected and a player could still bring up to 15 buggies.

The problem is a Freebooters list with tons of planes, tons of scrapjets and tons of squigbuggies. None of the those, the klan trait or the specific aforementioned units are a problem in any other kind of lists. So they really shouldn't nerf the klan or go too hard on the units. The combo should be addressed.


 
   
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gungo wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…


Had they not gone all out attack they would have got wiped T1 or T2 anyway...

Trying was only way they could have avoided that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
gungo wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…
always amusing to see a nobody on the internet call one of the best players in the world bad for not charging units he couldn't reach and not managing to win a roll-off to prevent a retreat from combat.

I mean he advanced forward and left himself on the open on a gunline army. What did he think was going to happen? He got outplayed badly and publicly. If he was relying on a roll off to win grats on losing the coin toss… he gambled and lost simple as that… from one nobody on the Internet to the next nobody on the Internet go white Knight somewhere else.


Well alternative was do nothing to prevent it and get automatically blasted off the board...

How was that better than at least trying to avoid being blasted away without any chance of doing anything? Literally only way he could avoid T2 tabling was try to tag them in melee. That was the one and only way DE could even theoretically win there.

So he tried, didn't succeed. At least he tried. You? You would seemingly just allow yourself get tabled without tryin to do anything. Basically: You wave white flag and just make opponent go through motions of rolling dice. At least just concede before game begins then if you don't even try to win. Not even trying to win and not conceding is just rude and poor sportmanship. Conceding in long way like you is...just rude.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/28 09:22:32


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I've watched the battle report and the moment the Drukhari player fails the no escape rolls against the Mek guns the game is over. He was using a very aggressive army that wanted to get into the Mek guns to prevent them being shot, and after that he would swing down into the buggies and work his way through them.

Unfortunately for him he rolled poorly and his plan back fires, leading to the buggies stomping on his very fragile army. The buggies also had their ideal targets in Venoms and Wyches. No one uses KBBs, but conveniently if they manage to charge or survive a round of combat against Drukhari, then all those flamers are pretty darn good for wiping out their units.

In all honesty, if his plan had worked he likely would have won. Drukhari are CC blenders that buggies can't really handle in melee, and they wouldn't have been able to fall back properly because they're not Blood Axes. All of the buggies were packed in so tight that if he could charge one, he was tagging multiple buggies, at which point it all starts going wrong for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/28 10:49:47


 
   
 
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