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So... the Decree Passive was created to create a new check and balance in the Imperium after the Age of Apostacy when the Ecclesi... Eccelist... the Church basically took over the whole Imperium. Once they were overthrown the Ecc... the Church was barred from controlling any "Men under arms".

But opps that sexist language will trip you up every time cause it don't say nothing about women under arms.

It's like no one read Lord of the Rings.

I always liked it, it's a neat bit of fluff, it feels real and justifies an all-woman army. Yeah there were the wachamcallthem Militia but they were just civilians who'd been handed a gun and an arm band, they weren't an army.

So where do the (seeming all male) crusaders come in?

Has that been answered?

Not the quote I was looking for, but close enough:

Lexicanum wrote: Ecclesiarchy priests often gather a band of bodyguards to assist them in the execution of their duties (and Heretics). Known as Battle Conclaves, these groups are necessarily small; anything larger would breach the prohibition of "men under arms" as laid down in the Decree Passive that prohibited the Ecclesiarchy from raising its own male military forces in the wake of the abuses carried out during the Age of Apostasy in the 36th Millennium by the Renegade High Lord and Ecclesiarch Goge Vandire. Even so, the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus covertly monitors the activities of the Ecclesiarchy's Battle Conclaves to safeguard the spirit of the Decree Passive, if not its letter.[1]

1: Dark Heresy: Ascension, pg. 50

They skirt the rule by being small groups, and not a standing army.

Crusader houses (If I recall correctly) are technically independent, and are only loaning out their services.

'Ecclesiarchy priests often gather a band of bodyguards to assist them in the execution of their duties (and heretics). Known as Battle Conclaves, these groups are necessarily small; anything larger would breach the prohibition of 'men under arms'as laid down in the Decree Passive. Even so, the Inquisition covertly monitors battle Conclaves to safeguard the spirit of the Decree Passive, if not its letter.'
Codex: Sisters of Battle (5th ed.) in White Dwarf 380 (US), pg.96

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I always liked it, it's a neat bit of fluff, it feels real and justifies an all-woman army.

It is very cool, but it's also not mentioned in the current Codex anywhere. No more explanation of why the church uses warrior nuns. And they somehow managed to invert Vandire's job roles in what was either a ridiculous mistake or a pointless retcon. Confessor Dolan has been written out of history, etc...

If it's not in a current GW rulebook, is it current canon?

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I always liked it, it's a neat bit of fluff, it feels real and justifies an all-woman army.

It is very cool, but it's also not mentioned in the current Codex anywhere. No more explanation of why the church uses warrior nuns. And they somehow managed to invert Vandire's job roles in what was either a ridiculous mistake or a pointless retcon. Confessor Dolan has been written out of history, etc...

If it's not in a current GW rulebook, is it current canon?

One of the biggest arguments for female space marines not being a thing is the fact that the single sentence that forbade any such thing was exclusively located in a codex several editions ago.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I always liked it, it's a neat bit of fluff, it feels real and justifies an all-woman army.

It is very cool, but it's also not mentioned in the current Codex anywhere. No more explanation of why the church uses warrior nuns. And they somehow managed to invert Vandire's job roles in what was either a ridiculous mistake or a pointless retcon. Confessor Dolan has been written out of history, etc...

If it's not in a current GW rulebook, is it current canon?

The SM Codex doesnt mention what the 21 Implants are. It doesn't mean we dont know what they are or that they're retconned. So yes, just because its not in the latest book doesnt mean it's been retconned

As I recall Crusaders are essentially wealthy private citizens who decide on their own volition to join together and slaughter some heretics. They never come together in large enough numbers to warrant attention by those who would enforce the decree.

It's surprising, considering how much Inquisition iconography they have. They're literally wearing a pendant with the ][ on it, as well as their shield has the ][ on it as well.

Basically all the Imperial institutions use a stylised "I" but for the Crusader models it's a holdover from when they were Inquisition units rather than Ecclesiarchy units.

macluvin wrote:


One of the biggest arguments for female space marines not being a thing is the fact that the single sentence that forbade any such thing was exclusively located in a codex several editions ago.

Unrelated to this... but do you know which book has that?

Gert wrote:Basically all the Imperial institutions use a stylised "I" but for the Crusader models it's a holdover from when they were Inquisition units rather than Ecclesiarchy units.

I don't have any crusaders at hand to squint at, is it an Inquisition ][ with the 3 bars, or the Equli- Church ][ with the skull in a spiky circle?

You know how "concerned veterans" often 'spontaneously' form militia units and go to fight a neighbour, later requesting their 'home' government now sends formal military aid to protect their new colony?

That.

beast_gts wrote:
Not the quote I was looking for, but close enough:

Lexicanum wrote: Ecclesiarchy priests often gather a band of bodyguards to assist them in the execution of their duties (and Heretics). Known as Battle Conclaves, these groups are necessarily small; anything larger would breach the prohibition of "men under arms" as laid down in the Decree Passive that prohibited the Ecclesiarchy from raising its own male military forces in the wake of the abuses carried out during the Age of Apostasy in the 36th Millennium by the Renegade High Lord and Ecclesiarch Goge Vandire. Even so, the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus covertly monitors the activities of the Ecclesiarchy's Battle Conclaves to safeguard the spirit of the Decree Passive, if not its letter.[1]

1: Dark Heresy: Ascension, pg. 50

They skirt the rule by being small groups, and not a standing army.

I guess that's OK but not as elegant as 'Ain't nobody said nothing about no women under arms'. I mean the Crusaders are quite literally men with weapons, there's really not much wiggle room.

When they were part of the Witch Hunters it was OK since the Inquisition is not bound by the Decree Passive (or y'know, anything else, hey men under arms, go stand over there with my psykers and my pet demon). But now that they're part of the Sisters book they stand out.

Maybe they're not warriors though. Maybe they're just monks practicing a highly specialized form of mediation through sword-fight Kata.

Of course odds are they'll be cut or compressed into the new sisters shield and pole arm unit (they don't have a sword option do they?).

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I don't have any crusaders at hand to squint at, is it an Inquisition ][ with the 3 bars, or the Equli- Church ][ with the skull in a spiky circle?

The originals had 3, and the new one (Gotfret de Montbard) has the skull in a spiky circle:

Actually the new guy has both, mostly spiky circles but one Inquition =][= on his tabard/loin cloth thing.

Now I'm confused.

Good spot!

I think the answer is there's no single source of Crusaders - some are recruited from the Schola Progenium by priests or inquisitors, some are from the Crusader houses and others are wealthy/powerful individuals who want to kill things.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
but one Inquition =][= on his tabard/loin cloth thing.

Nah, that's an artefact of that one photo and the way the Eavy Metal team painted the model. The symbol on his tabard is actually also the Ecclesiarchal version. (As is the one on his cloak that you can't see in that photo.)

The 3rd edition Crusader models have Inquisition iconography because they were part of Inquisitorial retinues.

I have a very simple question. Are all Crusaders men or are there also Crusaders women? We know of only one named Crusader as far as I know who is a man though that doesn't mean that many, many Crusaders could be women and thus help a bit with bypassing the Decree Passive.

I don't think that there's anything which specifies that there aren't female Crusaders.

It would make sense if they were a minority though, as suitable female Schola recruits would most likely be placed with the Sororitas.

epronovost wrote:
I have a very simple question. Are all Crusaders men or are there also Crusaders women? We know of only one named Crusader as far as I know who is a man though that doesn't mean that many, many Crusaders could be women and thus help a bit with bypassing the Decree Passive.

Lexicanum states there's a Crusader House called "Sisters of the Silvered Sphinx" mentioned in White Dwarf June 2018.
EDIT: They're part of Chris Peach’s Ventrillian Nobles Guard army used in the battle report, and he's used SoS for them.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
the Church was barred from controlling any "Men under arms"

Maybe they did the same thing as with 'women' and argued a 'man under arms' is not 'men'?

beast_gts wrote:
The originals had 3

Wasn't it both? There was a spiky circle under =I= sign too?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:



or the Equli- Church ][ with the skull in a spiky circle?

On Gotfret de Montebard its that. On the older Crusader sculpts its the =][= of the inquisition with the spiky circle in the background I think the originals were sculpted before they really defined the two as separate/distinct symbols and they later split them - as far as the old sculpts are concerned, the little bit that makes it the Inquisition symbol is easy enough to ignore though because the spiky circle is more prominent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
Not the quote I was looking for, but close enough:

Lexicanum wrote: Ecclesiarchy priests often gather a band of bodyguards to assist them in the execution of their duties (and Heretics). Known as Battle Conclaves, these groups are necessarily small; anything larger would breach the prohibition of "men under arms" as laid down in the Decree Passive that prohibited the Ecclesiarchy from raising its own male military forces in the wake of the abuses carried out during the Age of Apostasy in the 36th Millennium by the Renegade High Lord and Ecclesiarch Goge Vandire. Even so, the Inquisition's Ordo Hereticus covertly monitors the activities of the Ecclesiarchy's Battle Conclaves to safeguard the spirit of the Decree Passive, if not its letter.[1]

1: Dark Heresy: Ascension, pg. 50

They skirt the rule by being small groups, and not a standing army.

I guess that's OK but not as elegant as 'Ain't nobody said nothing about no women under arms'. I mean the Crusaders are quite literally men with weapons, there's really not much wiggle room.

When they were part of the Witch Hunters it was OK since the Inquisition is not bound by the Decree Passive (or y'know, anything else, hey men under arms, go stand over there with my psykers and my pet demon). But now that they're part of the Sisters book they stand out.

Maybe they're not warriors though. Maybe they're just monks practicing a highly specialized form of mediation through sword-fight Kata.

Of course odds are they'll be cut or compressed into the new sisters shield and pole arm unit (they don't have a sword option do they?).

I think they take the plausible deniability used by by contractors in the real world, i.e. "We don't have men under arms, these guys don't work for us". Mix that a bit with "these are just random dudes who showed up with swords and shields and started doing stuff, we hang out with them because we're friends now, otherwise theres no professional relationship here".

Also, they might be able to get away with it as long as the men are part of a mission or crusade, which would be (in theory) disbanded when their objective is complete.

"Its fine, they're not under the Ecclesiarchy's command, they're just part of some expedition to kill heretics on planet Albi Secundus."

I think GW is getting away with the Decree Passive. In the Dark Imperium books, Matthew leads an entire army crusade of his church, to war, against Nurgle's army. How is that decree passive?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think GW is getting away with the Decree Passive. In the Dark Imperium books, Matthew leads an entire army crusade of his church, to war, against Nurgle's army. How is that decree passive?

They were civilian volunteers. The Ecclesiarchy did not formally arm them or induct them into its forces.

Frateris Militia have always been exempt because they're a volunteer militia and aren't supposed to be maintained as a constant standing army.
It's why in the novel Legion of the Damned the Excoriators start executing some Frateris guards and even get a Sister Superior to arrest/kill a senior Cardinal for maintaining a standing army of Frateris.

The militia he had was made up of practically the entire planet PDF, several cadian detachments, and a super heavy detachment. How is that civilian?

There's a difference between a member of the Church being a figurehead of an army and actually being in command of one.
Was said Church man commanding the regiments of Cadians or just shouting lots of Church words to inspire them and keep them in the fight? Plus since all of those things you mentioned were full military organisations, they weren't militia and unless they were specifically tied to the Ecclesiarchy then they aren't a standing Ecclesiarchal army.

I guess it would be similar to the historical crusades. Crusaders did what the pope asked, but weren't part of the pope's army. Frateris militia go where the ecclesiarchy says they should, but they aren't under its direct command.

Obviously, it doesn't make a big difference in practice, but officially there's no breach of the decree. Is that hypocritical? Of course it is! But allowing an all-female army because they aren't "men under arms" is obviously not in the spirit of the law either. The decree passive has been very loosely applied from day one. In the end it's basically up to the inquisition to decide if it's okay or not.