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Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I have played look out sir that you can target the character when he and another unit are equidistant. And i think everyone plays it like that, no one i played against played it otherwise, and every battle report i watched on youtube, also played it like that. But after reading measuring distances i think i (and everyone else) played it wrong.

MEASURING DISTANCES
Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull. You can measure distances whenever you wish.

If a rule refers to the closest unit or model, and two or more are equidistant, then the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule.


Look out sir refers to the closest unit or model, if two or more are equidistant, the player who controls the unit (character) that is using the rule in question (look out sir) selects which is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule. This means that you cannot target the character when two or more units are equidistant, unless the player who controls the character says the character is the closest unit.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

You played it incorrectly when you played it that you can target the character when he and another unit are equidistant. (No one I know plays it like this because the RAW says the opposite).

You have made a correct statement after the quote.

Is there a rules question to go along with this, or is it you making a realization that you were playing it incorrectly?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

The question is if my statement is correct.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Yes, you are correct in that you've been playing it wrong.

You cannot target a character if it is not the closest, visible target from the firing unit.

When there are more than 1 unit, including the character, that are equidistant from the firing model, then the said character model is not the closest, visible target.

In practice, however, this rarely comes up because one model is likely 1/64th of an inch closer to the firing model given that we play on non-rectangular bases.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/04 16:34:36


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

If two units are equidistant to you, the player using the rule get to decide which is the closest unit. When you are making a shooting attack, you are using the rule (making a shooting attack) so you get to decide if the character is closest. Your opponent isn't using Look Out, Sir!, it is a limitation on your shooting attack.

This is in no way different then when you use the Smite Psychic Power and you get to decide which of two equidistant units is closer.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 alextroy wrote:
If two units are equidistant to you, the player using the rule get to decide which is the closest unit. When you are making a shooting attack, you are using the rule (making a shooting attack) so you get to decide if the character is closest. Your opponent isn't using Look Out, Sir!, it is a limitation on your shooting attack.

This is in no way different then when you use the Smite Psychic Power and you get to decide which of two equidistant units is closer.
The attacker never uses the LOS rule though, the defender does.

You cant use rules that do not apply to your models.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

If two are equidistant the Character isn’t closest.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

The rules for measuring distances say otherwise.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 JohnnyHell wrote:
If two are equidistant the Character isn’t closest.


Thats up for the player who controls the character to decide.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 p5freak wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
If two are equidistant the Character isn’t closest.


Thats up for the player who controls the character to decide.
If two units are equidistant then they are "equally close" while neither are "closest", hence the need for the additional clause explaining what to do in such case.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/05 19:25:47


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 DeathReaper wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
If two units are equidistant to you, the player using the rule get to decide which is the closest unit. When you are making a shooting attack, you are using the rule (making a shooting attack) so you get to decide if the character is closest. Your opponent isn't using Look Out, Sir!, it is a limitation on your shooting attack.

This is in no way different then when you use the Smite Psychic Power and you get to decide which of two equidistant units is closer.
The attacker never uses the LOS rule though, the defender does.

You cant use rules that do not apply to your models.
Well, actually
LOOK OUT, SIR
Models cannot target a unit that contains any Character models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon while that unit is within 3" of any other friendly Vehicle or Monster unit, or while it is within 3" of any other friendly units that have 3 or more models, unless that Character unit is both visible to the firing model and it
is the closest enemy unit to the firing model – the maelstrom of battle makes it difficult to pick out such individuals. Ignore other enemy Character models with a Wounds characteristics of 9 or less when determining if the target is the closest enemy unit to the firing model.
Note that Look Out, Sir is a limitation on what a unit may target. When you make an shooting attack, you cannot target said models. It is not a rule that affects the target, it is a rule that affects the targeter.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 alextroy wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
If two units are equidistant to you, the player using the rule get to decide which is the closest unit. When you are making a shooting attack, you are using the rule (making a shooting attack) so you get to decide if the character is closest. Your opponent isn't using Look Out, Sir!, it is a limitation on your shooting attack.

This is in no way different then when you use the Smite Psychic Power and you get to decide which of two equidistant units is closer.
The attacker never uses the LOS rule though, the defender does.

You cant use rules that do not apply to your models.
Well, actually
LOOK OUT, SIR
Models cannot target a unit that contains any Character models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon while that unit is within 3" of any other friendly Vehicle or Monster unit, or while it is within 3" of any other friendly units that have 3 or more models, unless that Character unit is both visible to the firing model and it
is the closest enemy unit to the firing model – the maelstrom of battle makes it difficult to pick out such individuals. Ignore other enemy Character models with a Wounds characteristics of 9 or less when determining if the target is the closest enemy unit to the firing model.
Note that Look Out, Sir is a limitation on what a unit may target. When you make an shooting attack, you cannot target said models. It is not a rule that affects the target, it is a rule that affects the targeter.
Well, actually what? I was not wrong. The rule has an effect on both targeter and targeted model (many rules do), but it is because of the targeted model is using a rule that makes itself un-targetable in most situations. The rule benefits characters, so they are the ones that are using the rule. The targeting unit is restricted by the rule.

When one benefits from a rule, they are said to be using the rule, in common English parlance.

You can not target a Character because of the rules the character has. Because of the rules that characters get. If the model is not a character, it does not use that rule to protect itself.

Look Out, Sir is a limitation on what a unit may target because a specific model is using a rule to not get targeted. Without the Look Out, Sir rules, you could freely target characters but characters get to utilize a rule called Look Out, Sir to not get shot.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 DeathReaper wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
If two units are equidistant to you, the player using the rule get to decide which is the closest unit. When you are making a shooting attack, you are using the rule (making a shooting attack) so you get to decide if the character is closest. Your opponent isn't using Look Out, Sir!, it is a limitation on your shooting attack.

This is in no way different then when you use the Smite Psychic Power and you get to decide which of two equidistant units is closer.
The attacker never uses the LOS rule though, the defender does.

You cant use rules that do not apply to your models.
Well, actually
LOOK OUT, SIR
Models cannot target a unit that contains any Character models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon while that unit is within 3" of any other friendly Vehicle or Monster unit, or while it is within 3" of any other friendly units that have 3 or more models, unless that Character unit is both visible to the firing model and it
is the closest enemy unit to the firing model – the maelstrom of battle makes it difficult to pick out such individuals. Ignore other enemy Character models with a Wounds characteristics of 9 or less when determining if the target is the closest enemy unit to the firing model.
Note that Look Out, Sir is a limitation on what a unit may target. When you make an shooting attack, you cannot target said models. It is not a rule that affects the target, it is a rule that affects the targeter.
Well, actually what? I was not wrong. The rule has an effect on both targeter and targeted model (many rules do), but it is because of the targeted model is using a rule that makes itself un-targetable in most situations. The rule benefits characters, so they are the ones that are using the rule. The targeting unit is restricted by the rule.

When one benefits from a rule, they are said to be using the rule, in common English parlance.

You can not target a Character because of the rules the character has. Because of the rules that characters get. If the model is not a character, it does not use that rule to protect itself.

Look Out, Sir is a limitation on what a unit may target because a specific model is using a rule to not get targeted. Without the Look Out, Sir rules, you could freely target characters but characters get to utilize a rule called Look Out, Sir to not get shot.
Incorrect. Character units do not have a Look, Out Sir rule. All units are forbidden from targeting units with the Character keyword because of the Look, Out Sir rule limitation of Shooting Attacks. It is the Shooting Attack that has a limitation not the target model.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Character units do not need to have the Look, Out Sir rule.

All units are forbidden from targeting units with the Character keyword because of the Look, Out Sir rule which ONLY applies to Characters...

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Yes. But since it is not the Character unit using the Look, Out Sir! rule, it is the shooter who gets to decide which equidistant unit from it is the closest unit as they are using the Shooting rules which Look, Out Sir! is a part of.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 alextroy wrote:
Yes. But since it is not the Character unit using the Look, Out Sir! rule, it is the shooter who gets to decide which equidistant unit from it is the closest unit as they are using the Shooting rules which Look, Out Sir! is a part of.

But he character is the unit using the Look, Out Sir! rule to be protected from a given units shooting.

Look, Out Sir! protects Characters from being targeted.

Therefore, the defender gets to decide.

Basically, since the rule say 'the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule."(Emphasis mine) We need to determine who is using the rule.

Utilize is a synonym of using, and looking at what using/utilize means you can tell it is the Character utilizing the rule to not be targeted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/06 06:33:11


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

 DeathReaper wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Yes. But since it is not the Character unit using the Look, Out Sir! rule, it is the shooter who gets to decide which equidistant unit from it is the closest unit as they are using the Shooting rules which Look, Out Sir! is a part of.

But he character is the unit using the Look, Out Sir! rule to be protected from a given units shooting.

Look, Out Sir! protects Characters from being targeted.

Therefore, the defender gets to decide.

Basically, since the rule say 'the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule."(Emphasis mine) We need to determine who is using the rule.

Utilize is a synonym of using, and looking at what using/utilize means you can tell it is the Character utilizing the rule to not be targeted.
Show me where it states anywhere in the rules that Characters have Look, Out Sir!. It doesn't. Look, Out Sir! is a limitation on the targeting rules of the attacking model. It is not an ability on the Character's datasheet. You don't use Look Out, Sir! to say "you can't target me". Instead when someone make a Shooting Attack Look Out, Sir! says that unit is not an eligible target. It is a subtle and yet very important distinction.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Spoiler:
 alextroy wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Yes. But since it is not the Character unit using the Look, Out Sir! rule, it is the shooter who gets to decide which equidistant unit from it is the closest unit as they are using the Shooting rules which Look, Out Sir! is a part of.

But he character is the unit using the Look, Out Sir! rule to be protected from a given units shooting.

Look, Out Sir! protects Characters from being targeted.

Therefore, the defender gets to decide.

Basically, since the rule say 'the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule."(Emphasis mine) We need to determine who is using the rule.

Utilize is a synonym of using, and looking at what using/utilize means you can tell it is the Character utilizing the rule to not be targeted.
Show me where it states anywhere in the rules that Characters have Look, Out Sir!. It doesn't. Look, Out Sir! is a limitation on the targeting rules of the attacking model. It is not an ability on the Character's datasheet. You don't use Look Out, Sir! to say "you can't target me". Instead when someone make a Shooting Attack Look Out, Sir! says that unit is not an eligible target. It is a subtle and yet very important distinction.
It is basic English parlance.

Conversely show me where it states anywhere in the rules that attacking units have Look, Out Sir!. It doesn't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/06 15:19:17


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Neither unit "has" the rule. It's a limitation on targeting characters.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Correct. A rule imposed on the attacker by the shooting rules, not an ability used by the Character.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Ok, now i am confused. Who gets to choose which unit is the closest when a character and another unit are equidistant ?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The shooting unit, to my mind.

The shooting model is using the shooting rules, so by default get to select who is the closest unit.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The character is the unit using the Look, Out Sir! rule to be protected from a given units shooting.

Look, Out Sir! protects Characters from being targeted.

Therefore, the defender gets to decide.

Basically, since the rule say 'the player who is controlling the unit that is using the rule in question selects which unit is the closest for the purposes of resolving that rule."(Emphasis mine) We need to determine who is using the rule.

Utilize is a synonym of using, and looking at what using/utilize means you can tell it is the Character utilizing the rule to not be targeted.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The look out sir rule is not used by the character. It's used by the shooting unit when determining who is an eligible target, during the choose targets step.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Utilize is a synonym of using, and looking at what using/utilize means you can tell it is the Character utilizing the rule to not be targeted.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Surely the shooting unit is utilising the rule to determine which units are eligible to be targeted?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 DeathReaper wrote:
Utilize is a synonym of using, and looking at what using/utilize means you can tell it is the Character utilizing the rule to not be targeted.
the shooting unit uses the los rule to determine who is an eligible target.
not the other way around
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Look, Out Sir! protects Characters from being targeted. it is a rule that only those with the CHARACTER Keyword can use.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Except, as pointed out, they're not USING it. The unit shooting has to declare targets, and has to USE the los rule to determine if the character is an eligible target or not. The active user is the shooting unit.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, as pointed out, they're not USING it. The unit shooting has to declare targets, and has to USE the los rule to determine if the character is an eligible target or not. The active user is the shooting unit.
Exactly. Just look at the text for Look Out, Sir.
LOOK OUT, SIR
Models cannot target a unit that contains any Character models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon while that unit is within 3" of any other friendly Vehicle or Monster unit, or while it is within 3" of any other friendly units that have 3 or more models, unless that Character unit is both visible to the firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model – the maelstrom of battle makes it difficult to pick out such individuals. Ignore other enemy Character models with a Wounds characteristics of 9 or less when determining if the target is the closest enemy unit to the firing model.
It tells the attacker it cannot target a Character unit unless it is the closes target. The target unit is not actively doing anything.
   
 
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