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Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






Hi everybody, it's that time of year again. The Orks codex has been out long enough that Ork players know what works and doesn't work with the new army ruleset. While I think it's overall a decent codex, there's definitely some internal balancing and lack of rules synergy that I think is missing. I'd like to see what you guys think needs to be touched up or changed to make more list diversity a thing with Ork lists without driving up the army into OP territory.

Here's what I have up so far:

Armywide rules:

'Ere we Go and Ramshackle is fine as is, and I think WAAAGH! and SpeedWAAAGH! don't need to be touched. However, I really feel the lack of impact for Dred WAAAGH! style lists personally, I feel a third WAAAGH! type should be made, called a DreadWAAAGH! which can only be called in place of a WAAAGH and SpeedWAAAGH if your Warlord has the Big Mek keyword. During the first turn where a DreadWAAAGH! is called all units with the WALKERZ keyword gain the objective secured special rule and enemy models with a Wounds characteristic of 2 or lower that are within 3" of this unit cannot contest objectives. In addition, all units with the WALKERZ keyword gain +1 to hit. The following turn after a DREADWAAAGH! is called, only the first ability (the objective secured and objective contesting ability for enemy models) remains in effect.

I would also make it so Mob Rule stays the same but also add the caveat that you would make it so the unit's leadership is increased by 1 for every 10 Orks in the unit.

Add the caveat that you can advance and shoot Dakka weapons with a -1 to hit penalty.

Units with the Gretchin keyword can benefit from Kulturs and no longer loses Objective secured.

Weapon Profile Changes:

Make Rokkit launchas Assault 2 (retain blast) instead of Heavy D3, since Heavy makes it so you have no incentive to take it on a boyz unit.

Big Shootas gain AP-1.

Klan Specific:

Evil Sunz: Change it so they can advance and shoot Assault AND Dakka weapons without a -1 to hit penalty.

SnakeBitez: Feels mostly fine as is, not a fan of giving them the FNP ability again, but I'm not sure what to give them as far as resiliency goes. Maybe +1T for non-Gretchin Infantry and Cavalry units instead of their baby transhuman?

Blood Axes: Change it so they get the benefits of light cover when outside of 12" rather than 18", still don't know why they made the range for this ability so long.

Bad Moonz: I think changing their 6" extra range for Dakka and Heavy Weapons into exploding 6's to hit for their shooting attacks makes more sense, this would be in addition to causing 6's to wound being an additional -1AP. Change their strat to make it so their exploding 6's to hit gives you two hits rather than one.

Deffskullz, Goffs and Freebootas are all fine, though I would change the Goff's relic to be at the start of the combat before anyone is chosen to attack and you have to choose a specific model within 3" of the bearer. If a model survives after suffering mortal wounds from the relic, it counts as fighting last. This makes it a useful dueling relic that doesn't make it auto take since it won't affect the entire unit if you use it on a unit with multiple models.

Specialist Ladz:

Update Battlewagons and Stompas to allow the transportation of Specialists Ladz in addition to KLAN units.

Majority of these barring Trukk Boyz really are underwhelming, so one fix is to either have these in addition to one's klan kultur. This makes it so its a straight up buff versus a bad trade off and also removes some of the weird limitations of Klan strats and HQ buffs not working on them. The only one I'd change is 'Orrible Gitz to just change back into the Ol Grot Mobs subkultur we got, where it gives a Gretchin Unit a 6++ save and reroll ones to hit.

Kustom Jobs:

With the recent changes to buggies being forced to stay in one unit, I would change it to make it so you can take multiples of the same kustom job in one unit and pay it per model accordingly. I would lower the points cost down below accordingly:

KUSTOM JOB POWER POINTS
Da Booma (should become 3D6 shots to be more competitive against Kannonwagons) +10
Fortress on Wheels +15
Gyroscopic Whirligig +10
More Dakka +10/+20
Nitro Squigs +25
Red Rolla +10
Shokka Hull +10/+20
Souped-up Speshul +10
Squig-hide Tyres +10
Stompamatic Pistons +10/+15

MEK KUSTOM JOBS
Bionik Oiler (Change it so you can use it every turn rather than it being one use) +10
Enhanced Runt-Sucker (Change it to 3D3 shots) +15
Extra-Kustom Weapon remains the same +10
Smoky Gubbinz (Change it so the unit always counts as being in both light and dense cover) +2 per model
Zzapkrumpaz (change it to apply any unit with the Spanner or Big Mek/Mek keyword, if it's a unit with the Spanner keyword, you pay 2 points per model, if you choose a unit with the BIG MEK/MEK keyword, it costs 15. In addition, change it to "Each time a shooting attack is made by a model in this unit, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any normal damage. You can only inflict a maximum of 5 mortal wounds each phase from this ability."

Shiny Gubbinz:

Change it so the the Dead Shiny Shoota can be taken by a character model with a Big Shoota

Make it so the Scorched Gitbonez gives a +1 to cast to all Psychic Powers rather than just Witchfire ones.

Stratagems:

I'll only be listing the ones I think need to be revised/updated.

Hit Em Harder - Change to 1CP instead of 2
Breakin' Eads - Change to 0CP
Moar Dakka - Change to 1CP
Change Unstoppable Momentum to apply to any Ork unit (means that it can also work for other units that have a mortal wound after charge ability, like several buggies and the Warboss with WL trait or Krushin Armour).
Reduce Snagga Grapple to 1CP (way too expensive for a 4+ chance)
Remove Burn Em All! and Replace with Big Red Button: When a friendly Ork vehicle army is removed as a casualty and has to roll to see if it explodes, do not roll a die. It automatically counts as having exploded. If that VEHICLE is a WAGON or TITANIC model, this Stratagem costs 2CP; otherwise, it costs 1CP.
Replace Cuttin' Flames with Loot It! Stratagem.
Grot Shields Reduced to 1 CP.
Lumbering Strides (change to affect all non-Gretchin Ork units in the army instead of just Morkanauts, Stompas and Gorkanauts).
Force Field Boosta, change it so that it does not destroy the KFF.

Power of the WAAAGH!

Change 'Eadbanger to the Following:

Malediction. Warp Charge value of 7. If successfully cast, choose a visible enemy unit within 18" of the Psyker. You and your opponent roll off. Add your strength characteristic to your roll and your opponent adds their unit's highest toughness characteristic to their result. If your roll's result exceeds that of your opponents, your opponent's unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. In addition, that unit counts as fighting last.

Ork Secondaries:

Change Green Tide to units of 10 or more models being wholly within a table quarter rather than 11+. Makes it so baseline trukk boyz can at least secure some early points.

Unit Profiles/Points

HQ choices:

Make it so a Warboss' aura also gives nearby Ork CORE units +1Ld that is not cumulative with any other Warboss aura (Beast Snagga bosses instead give nearby Beast Snagga Units +1Ld).

Beastbosses aura should be replaced to give Beast Snagga units a reroll to wound aura against Vehicles and Monsters in melee.

All of the Big Meks should have an ability to choose one Ork KLAN VEHICLE unit in the command phase within 3" of them and give them reroll one's to hit.

Big Mek with SAG should be 2D3 shots baseline and only 90 points.

Weirdboy should get a 5+ invuln save based around his WAAAGH! Energy. Goes up to 80 points.

Boss Zagstruk goes down to 90 points.

A Painboss should have 8" movement base and change it so that he can heal all Ork KLAN units and not just Beast Snagga units for his Sawbonez ability. Also, make it so Dok's Tool's is not an aura but a targeted buff ability at the beginning of the command phase that gives a friendly <CLAN> INFANTRY, <CLAN> BIKER or <CLAN> CAVALRY unit is within 3" of this model one of the following enhancements until the start of the next command phase:
- The unit gains +1T and each time a model in that unit would lose a wound, roll one D6: on a 6, that wound is not lost.
- The unit gains +1S and +1A.

Regardless of which buff is chosen, a unit enhanced in such a way must first immediately roll a die for each model in the unit before it gains the ability of the chosen enhancement, on a roll of 1, that unit suffers a mortal wound. A unit can only ever be enhanced by a Dok's Tools once at a time.

Big Mek with KFF should be cheaper, like about 65 points.

Lower Ghazzy's cost to 275.

Increase the cost of the Beastboss on Squigosaur by 10 points.

Zodgrot Wortsnagga should make his one unit of Super Runts have the following buffs instead: +1S and +1T, +2Ld and the ability to advance, shoot or fall back and still perform actions. I also feel like he should have the same morale buff aura ability that Runtherds have for Grots.

Troops:

Hoo boy. Here we go. I think there should be a datasheet separate for shoota boyz and slugga boyz. It would also make shooting oriented Orks follow the base of shoota boyz rather than sluggas. Which makes sense IMO. In both cases, their points are dropped back to 8 points each.

Shoota boyz would have BS4+ base, but 1 base attack. For units of 11+ or more, Shoota boyz get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons.

Slugga boyz would stay the same as we see them now, but for units of 11+ or more, they get +1A.

Snagga boyz get dropped to 10 ppm.

Gretchin, as mentioned earlier, get access to Klan Kulturs which makes them a lot more useful in some cases, particularly snakebites. Change Diminuitive to -1 to hit while in cover instead and remove the unnecessary Cowardly rule (they're Ld4 already for goodness sake).

Elites:

Painboy:
They get the same changes of the Painboss but their Dok's Tools have a weaker version of the Painboss,
At the beginning of the command phase, choose a friendly <CLAN> INFANTRY, <CLAN> BIKER or <CLAN> CAVALRY unit is within 3" of this model one of the following enhancements until the start of the next command phase:
- Each time a model in that unit would lose a wound, roll one D6: on a 6, that wound is not lost.
- The unit gains +1S.

Roll a die at the end of the turn after a unit that has been enhanced by this Painboy, On a roll of a 1, that unit suffers a mortal wounds. A unit can only ever be affected by an enhancement by Dok Tools once at a time.

Burna Boyz: They're pretty good as is, I'd let them regain the AP-2 melee profile and make it so either the spanner isn't mandatory, or at least change it so that the Spanner allows them to have +1 to the amount of shots they have with their burnas as long as there is a Spanner in the unit. Make up for the fact that you're basically forced to take Spannerz as a tax. It'd also help if the Spanner was at least Ld7.

Meganobz: I feel like all they need to do with Meganobz is make them a bit cheaper or make them WS2+ base so that the PK's aren't as much of a liability when getting into CC. Would be nice if we had a Bully Boyz upgrade that you do once for the whole army before deployment where you pay +5 points per Meganob and the unit gets +1WS and +1A. Give them an aura as well that gives +1Ld to Ork CORE units within 6" of them.

Mek: Make em cheaper and give them the Big Mek's ability to buff an Ork KLAN vehicle with reroll one's to hit.

Runtherder: Make em 25 points, change the grot lash to make a Gretchin unit within 6" of him to reroll ones to hit rolls. Keep the squig hound's aura to be the same.

Nobz: I think they just need to be slightly cheaper, around 16 points. Also, ideally they change up the power stabba to be +1S AP-3, and 6's to wound cause a mortal wound with the weapon. Makes it so it actually is potentially considered at its frankly overpriced 5 points. Give them an aura as well that gives +1Ld to Ork CORE units within 6" of them that is not cumulative with other Nobz unit's auras.

Tankbustas: Get a 5+ save base and use the new Shoota Boy profile (1 attack, BS 4+). They lose the Tank Hunters rule. You can have the option to swap out a rokkit launcha for a tankhammer for every model in the unit versus 1 in 5. Gimme that suicide squad boyz!

Nob with WAAAGH! Banner: Gives +1 Ld to all Ork units within 6" of this unit and also increases friendly Ork advance and charge rolls by 1. for those who are within 6" of this unit.
Reduce his cost to 60 points.

Dedicated Transport:

Trukk: Either go down in points or make it so they're WS4+ like the buggies and that the wreckin ball upgrade doesn't have the dumb caveat where you can only make one attack with it. Add reinforced ram upgrade for 10 points that allows your trukk to inflict D3 mortal wounds on an enemy unit within 1" of the Trukk on a 4+ after successfully charging an enemy unit. For the grabbin klaw, it can only still make one attack, but if it successfully hits against an enemy MONSTER or Vehicle unit, you can roll a single D6. On a 3+, the MONSTER or VEHICLE unit you hit with the grabbin klaw may not fall back in the controlling player's following turn.

Heavy Support:

Battlewagon: Gets WS4+ base as above. Goes down 10 points. Can take the reinforced ram upgrade above OR deffrolla (not both). Grabbin Klaw gets the same upgrade as above.

Gunwagon: Gets WS4+ base as above, Goes down 10 points. Lose the Periscope ability and just make it BS4+ base.

Bonebreaka: Gets WS4+ base as above, Goes down 10 points.

Deff Dreadz gain the CORE keyword.

Flash Gitz go down 5 points per guy.

Kill Rig goes up to 210 points.

Hunta Rig goes up to 170 points.

Killa Kanz do not have to pay to upgrade their BS to Skorchas, and Rokkit Launchas only cost 10 points to upgrade to. Grotzookas gain AP-1

Lootas stay at 17 points and gain a 5+ save. The Spanner does something similar to Burna Boyz, where if you have 1 or more Spanners in the unit, the unit gets +6" range for their Deffguns. They also gain the new Shoota Boy stats(1 A and BS4+ profile)

That's what I've got. What do you guys think?

This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2021/11/15 15:36:57


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Disclaimer: I'm not an ork player. I don't know orks well. All comments are from the outside looking in.

Most of this seems reasonable to me. Things that jumped out at me:

 Grimskul wrote:

Units with the Gretchin keyword can benefit from Kulturs and no longer loses Objective secured.

Probably fine in general, but not if you change Snakebitez to have +1 Toughness. Gretchin at T4 and 5pts apiece seem like they *might* be just a tad too durable. Actually, the current Snakebitez rules (basically Transhuman) are probably way too good on gretchin too.


Make Rokkit launchas Assault D3 (retain blast) instead of Heavy D3, since Heavy makes it so you have no incentive to take it on a boyz unit.

If you change it to assault, I'd be tempted to make it go back to being Assault 1 rather than Assault d3. Despite the anti-synergy with advancing, becoming d3 shots and blast both buffed this weapon up a fair bit.


SnakeBitez: Feels mostly fine as is, not a fan of giving them the FNP ability again, but I'm not sure what to give them as far as resiliency goes. Maybe +1T for Infantry and Cavalry units instead of their baby transhuman?

Lasguns wounding everything but gretchin on a 6+ seems kind of rough, and yet this wouldn't impact S4 armies much at all. So it feels like this rule risks being too good against some opponents and inconsequential against others. Making orks T5 base already makes them feel a bit weird against a lot of small arms fire.

Blood Axes: Change it so they get the benefits of light cover when outside of 12" rather than 18", still don't know why they made the range for this ability so long.

My theory is that they wanted to weaken it compared to the Raven Guard version because a buff that is good on a marine is potentially even better on a horde. But this seems fine.


Bad Moonz: I think changing their 6" extra range for Dakka and Heavy Weapons into exploding 6's to hit for their shooting attacks makes more sense, this would be in addition to causing 6's to wound being an additional -1AP. Change their strat to make it so their exploding 6's to hit gives you two hits rather than one.

Is that "exploding" as in you roll an extra attack (per 8e's DDD!), or "exploding" as in 6s to hit count as 2 hits? This raises a red flag for me either way. The former risks slowing the game down in the same way DDD did. The latter is a 50% increase in your number of hits for a BS5+ unit, and a 100% boost for a BS5+ unit that advances. Feels a bit strong. Extra range and some better AP already lets the army play differently on its own, no?


Majority of these barring Trukk Boyz really are underwhelming, so one fix is to either have these in addition to one's klan kultur. This makes it so its a straight up buff versus a bad trade off and also removes some of the weird limitations of Klan strats and HQ buffs not working on them. The only one I'd change is 'Orrible Gitz to just change back into the Ol Grot Mobs subkultur we got, where it gives a Gretchin Unit a 6++ save and reroll ones to hit.

Are these still basically kulturs that you get instead of normal kulturs that only buff highly-specific units? If so, seems like they're functionally just a really niche kultur that you'd want to put on that vanguard of burnaz or whatever. If not, would it make more sense to just make these into unit upgrade stratagems similar to Veteran Intercessors?


Change Green Tide to units of 10 or more models being wholly within a table quarter rather than 11+. Makes it so baseline trukk boyz can at least secure some early points.

Aren't 10 boyz plus their trukk 11 models? Serious question. I lack context.

Unit Profiles/Points


Weirdboy should get a 5+ invuln save based around his WAAAGH! Energy.

Seems fine, but it's also a vertical defense boost. How many points for the invuln?


A Painboss should have 10" movement base and change it so that he can heal all Ork KLAN units and not just Beast Snagga units for his Sawbonez ability. Also, make it so Dok's Tool's is not an aura but a targeted buff ability at the beginning of the command phase that gives a friendly <CLAN> INFANTRY, <CLAN> BIKER or <CLAN> CAVALRY unit is within 3" of this model one of the following enhancements until the start of the next command phase:
- The unit gains +1T and each time a model in that unit would lose a wound, roll one D6: on a 6, that wound is not lost.
- The unit gains +1S and +1A.

Regardless of which buff is chosen, a unit enhanced in such a way must roll a die for each model in the unit at the end of the turn, on a roll of 1, that unit suffers a mortal wound. A unit can only ever be enhanced by a Dok's Tools once at a time.

See above about T6 boyz maybe not being a good idea. Also, the timing on the mortal wound roll is a little weird. If it's at the end of your own turn, then it happens before your opponent has had a chance shoot and charge the unit, but after the unit has had a chance to shoot and charge an enemy of their choice. Seems like it would make more sense to just have the roll happen immediately when you use the rule so there's less to track and so that the offensive buff doesn't have an edge over the defensive buff.

Also, that just seems like a really powerful ability. How many points for the strength-boosting warpath that can't fail a psychic test or be denied and also comes in defense flavor?

Also, other than being themed as hanging out with cavalry dudes, what makes this guy deserve to move 10"?


Lower Ghazzy's cost to 275.
I'm not necessarily opposed, but I'm curious about how you arrived at this number. Presumably you feel Ghazkull is too pricey, but a 25 point discount represents a roughly 8.3% price reduction on a 300 point model. Is his only problem that he's cost-ineffective, but he's only cost-ineffective by about 8.3%?


Shoota boyz would have BS4+ base, but 1 base attack. For units of 11+ or more, Shoota boyz get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons.

T5 orks with guardsman BS that get 4 shots per shoota and cost less than they currently do seems like a tough sell even if you do lower their Attacks. For comparison, you're average 2 hits per boy there compared to a space marine's rapid firing bolter or a dire avenger's catapult both landing 1.333 hits. To reiterate, I don't know orks very well, but should a single boy really be landing more shots than two guardsmen at a higher strength for 2 points cheaper than said guardsmen?

What's the problem being solved by breaking up the boyz like this? If it's that shoota boys aren't all that great at shooting, well, isn't that kind of the reason they're decent in melee? And isn't that kind of a characterful decision for the army as a whole?


Gretchin, as mentioned earlier, get access to Klan Kulturs which makes them a lot more useful in some cases, particularly snakebites. Change Diminuitive to -1 to hit while in cover instead and remove the unnecessary Cowardly rule (they're Ld4 already for goodness sake).

Ah. So the T4 gretchin were intentional rather than an oversight, and you want to make them -1 to hit as well. I don't think I'm a fan of this. When I picture a T4 unit with a bakes in -1 to hit penalty, I picture something like... nurgle daemons or something. Make T4 gretchin not a thing, and I kind of like them being -1 to hit while in cover. But you'd maybe have to raise their points even then.


Meganobz: I feel like all they need to do with Meganobz is make them a bit cheaper or make them WS2+ base so that the PK's aren't as much of a liability when getting into CC. Would be nice if we had a Bully Boyz upgrade that you do once for the whole army before deployment where you pay +5 points per Meganob and the unit gets +1WS and +1A.

Paying less than 2 points for +1WS and +1A seems a little cheap, no?


Runtherder: Make em 25 points, change the grot lash to make a Gretchin unit within 6" of him to reroll ones to hit rolls. Make the squig hound aura change so that the grots cannot lose more than 1 grot to a failed morale check.

So T4, -1 to hit, and essentially immune to morale. :\


Tankbustas: Get a 5+ save base and use the new Shoota Boy profile (1 attack, BS 4+). They lose the Tank Hunters rule. You can have the option to swap out a rokkit launcha for a tankhammer for every model in the unit versus 1 in 5. Gimme that suicide squad boyz!

Setting aside my earlier objections to the shoota boy changes, we're talking about hitting 50% more often with a unit armed with S8 guns. (Slightly squiggly math vs vehicles once you factor in the removal of Tank Hunters.) How many extra points do you want to charge for that nearly 50% boost?


Trukk: Either go down in points or make it so they're WS4+ like the buggies and that the wreckin ball upgrade doesn't have the dumb caveat where you can only make one attack with it. Add reinforced ram upgrade for 10 points that allows your trukk to inflict D3 mortal wounds on an enemy unit within 1" of the Trukk on a 4+ after successfully charging an enemy unit. For the grabbin klaw, it can only still make one attack, but if it successfully hits against an enemy MONSTER or Vehicle unit, you can roll a single D6. On a 3+, the MONSTER or VEHICLE unit you hit with the grabbin klaw may not fall back in the controlling player's following turn.

As a dark eldar player, I'm a big fan of giving vehicles a decent WS. D3 MW on a 4+ on all trukks might be a bit much though. For comparison, drukhari have a strat (so usable once per turn) that does d3 mortal wounds to a vehicle, and you can only use it on vehicles that paid for a 5 or 10 point (I forget which) upgrade.


Flash Gitz go down 5 points per guy.

I don't know orks well enough to have strong feelings about this one, but are flash gitz all that bad right now? At BS4+, 3 shots, S6, AP-2, D2, each guy is killing 2/3rds of an intercessor each turn from the comfort of his transport.



Lootas stay at 17 points and gain a 5+ save. The Spanner does something similar to Burna Boyz, where if you have 1 or more Spanners in the unit, the unit gets +1 shot each for their Deffguns. They also gain the new Shoota Boy stats(1 A and BS4+ profile)

Raises some red flags for me. +1 shot on burnaz is fine. +1 shot on lootas is a 33% to 50% increse in the unit's firepower depending on how close the target is, and BS 4+ is a 50% boost to how likely they are to hit with each shot. Are lootas really in that bad of shape? A long-ranged unit with autocannon-like firepower and T5 for 17 points seems pretty decent on paper. Like, my drukhari have open-topped transports. I think I could feel pretty good about loading 10 of these guys into a raider.without factoring in your proposed changes.

Overall, most of your suggestions seemed fine to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/15 06:55:02



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant







Probably fine in general, but not if you change Snakebitez to have +1 Toughness. Gretchin at T4 and 5pts apiece seem like they *might* be just a tad too durable. Actually, the current Snakebitez rules (basically Transhuman) are probably way too good on gretchin too.


Yeah, as you've noted, this is an area where I'm not entirely sure where to go given the weird area T5 makes baby-transhuman works for Orks where it basically only matters against S6-7 attacks or abilities that give +1 to wound. We could keep it and change the caveat that for Gretchin units, they have the same ability but can only be wounded on a 3+ at best instead? I feel like there's a more intuitive way of making units tougher, so I'm all ears for any suggestions.

If you change it to assault, I'd be tempted to make it go back to being Assault 1 rather than Assault d3. Despite the anti-synergy with advancing, becoming d3 shots and blast both buffed this weapon up a fair bit.


I understand the hesitation, but in my experience the difference is actually minimal for units besides infantry because vehicles ignore the -1 to shoot and move anyways and blast means they can't fire it into combat. Would making it Assault 2 be a good compromise?

Lasguns wounding everything but gretchin on a 6+ seems kind of rough, and yet this wouldn't impact S4 armies much at all. So it feels like this rule risks being too good against some opponents and inconsequential against others. Making orks T5 base already makes them feel a bit weird against a lot of small arms fire.


Basically what I mentioned above, its tricky to add resiliency without resorting to stuff like FNP, which just makes the game bogged down in rolls.

Is that "exploding" as in you roll an extra attack (per 8e's DDD!), or "exploding" as in 6s to hit count as 2 hits? This raises a red flag for me either way. The former risks slowing the game down in the same way DDD did. The latter is a 50% increase in your number of hits for a BS5+ unit, and a 100% boost for a BS5+ unit that advances. Feels a bit strong. Extra range and some better AP already lets the army play differently on its own, no?


I chose this mainly because you basically never saw Bad Moonz when Freebootas were an option since having a +1 to hit was straight up more effective for the majority of shooting units in the Ork codex. I think with the changes to Flyers and Buggies that this might no longer be necessary, but I was intending for it to be basically the shooting version of the Goffs klan rule of exploding 6's. Maybe restrict it so that the exploding 6's doesn't apply to units that advanced that turn? I've just felt that the extra 6" range is somewhat irrelevant for most units barring Flash Gitz and Tankbustas, since the extra 3" for being in half range for Dakka weapons hasn't come into play much for me.


Are these still basically kulturs that you get instead of normal kulturs that only buff highly-specific units? If so, seems like they're functionally just a really niche kultur that you'd want to put on that vanguard of burnaz or whatever. If not, would it make more sense to just make these into unit upgrade stratagems similar to Veteran Intercessors?


You basically get one specialist mob per detachment, and you swap out the KLAN keyword and replace it with the specific specialist mob keyword, so you don't get the benefits of HQ auras that target KLAN units, nor can you use most KLAN based strats. It's also restricted based on the type of unit that's available to the subkultur, so Flyboyz only applies to FLYERS and Deffkoptas, for example. A lot of them are super situational, like getting Sneaky Gitz giving Boyz, Nob, Warboss, and Kommandos +1AP to when a unit attacks an enemy unit within 1" of a terrain feature. Since like half of them are things you would never bother taking over a Klan kultur, and its stuck being a 1 time upgrade for only one unit per detachment, I feel like you can't really spam it. If needed, you could restrict it so that you can never take more than one of each type in your army, but that would really kill Trukk Boyz as an archetype for normal Ork troops atm.

Aren't 10 boyz plus their trukk 11 models? Serious question. I lack context.


The secondary specifies that you can only score at the end of your turn if you have a unit of 11 or more models each wholly within two table quarters, I believe you score 5 if you have 4 units of 11 or more in each table quarter at the end of the turn. So basically it doesn't count the number of total models in a table quarter but rather its based on if there is a unit that has 11 or more models, which at the time being, is a serious liability and basically unheard of because of how bad taking large mobs of boyz are right now.

Unit Profiles/Points

Seems fine, but it's also a vertical defense boost. How many points for the invuln?


I assume the Weirdboy would go up 10 points, so from 70 to 80. Thanks for catching that, wall of text makes it easy for this to slip.

See above about T6 boyz maybe not being a good idea. Also, the timing on the mortal wound roll is a little weird. If it's at the end of your own turn, then it happens before your opponent has had a chance shoot and charge the unit, but after the unit has had a chance to shoot and charge an enemy of their choice. Seems like it would make more sense to just have the roll happen immediately when you use the rule so there's less to track and so that the offensive buff doesn't have an edge over the defensive buff.

Also, that just seems like a really powerful ability. How many points for the strength-boosting warpath that can't fail a psychic test or be denied and also comes in defense flavor?

Also, other than being themed as hanging out with cavalry dudes, what makes this guy deserve to move 10"?


His fluff is that he literally has cybork legs to keep up with others to heal people, which is part of the reason why I think having 10" move is fine so he can actually move with his intended charges versus having to advance every turn. I'm open to just making him 8" movement though. Also fair point on the timing, I'd probably shift it to immediately before the buff is applied. However, I think the drawback on suffering mortal wounds makes it clear it's not pure benefit (I can make it be inflicted on a roll of 1-2 per model instead if needed) and having it occur in the command phase and being limited to a unit within 3" means it's not as flexible as Warpath can be to buff certain units. I feel like it's a sufficient way to demonstrate a Mad Dok's experiments without having to roll on a random table while also not being as abnoxious as a SM apothecary flat out bringing back dead models, so if it feels strong I'm up for jacking up the cost of the Painboss to 100 points if the buffs seem that strong, though personally I don't feel like it'll break the game.


I'm not necessarily opposed, but I'm curious about how you arrived at this number. Presumably you feel Ghazkull is too pricey, but a 25 point discount represents a roughly 8.3% price reduction on a 300 point model. Is his only problem that he's cost-ineffective, but he's only cost-ineffective by about 8.3%?


I'll be honest, this one I was kinda just throwing this one around. Ghazzy is definitely overpriced for what he does right now, I started relatively low since I like to be conservative when it comes to points cuts. Feel free to give any suggestions on how much he should cost atm.


T5 orks with guardsman BS that get 4 shots per shoota and cost less than they currently do seems like a tough sell even if you do lower their Attacks. For comparison, you're average 2 hits per boy there compared to a space marine's rapid firing bolter or a dire avenger's catapult both landing 1.333 hits. To reiterate, I don't know orks very well, but should a single boy really be landing more shots than two guardsmen at a higher strength for 2 points cheaper than said guardsmen?

What's the problem being solved by breaking up the boyz like this? If it's that shoota boys aren't all that great at shooting, well, isn't that kind of the reason they're decent in melee? And isn't that kind of a characterful decision for the army as a whole?


I think this is where a bit of your lack of experience of understanding Orks is coming into play here, because shoota boyz are basically a non-entity in Ork lists right now. S4 AP0 shooting on a BS5+ platform is a joke, especially so when you need to get within 9" to get 3 shots per boy or you have to blow 2CP to get a full complement of shots from a unit of Shoota Boyz. Given that taking large mob of boyz are a huge liability right now due to morale, even taking them in trukks is pretty bad because that caps their total potential of shots to 24 shots, 36 if you're lucky to be in dakka range. This doesn't factor anything else like dense cover or light cover that can make it even harder to hit or deal damage to units.

And as far as being decent in melee, 2 attacks at S4 really isn't a selling point in this edition when everyone and their mother has like 2 attacks base nowadays, often with AP-1 or an additional attack from chainswords or whatever. Lacking the AP-1 and attack from a choppa means they do pitiful amounts of damage against the majority of MEQ armies or even just armies with 4+ armour and even against chaff units it's a depressing amount of damage. Boyz in combat basically need to go all in with choppas to get the tipping point of the right amount of attacks and AP to do meaningful damage. The Nob is no longer the scary boogeyman it was in 5th ed as I feel like more often than not, taking a PK on them just makes them miss more often and with -1D everywhere, you're paying a premium for very little damage potential which is why most Ork players take double choppas on them.

And with boyz almost being double the cost of guardsmen (at least right now before my changes, at 9 ppm), yes they should definitely have a slight edge over guardsmen for shooting given that we have no reroll buffs available. Basically my choice is to make shootas viable by not buffing the gun itself, but the platform its on so that way it doesn't go down the same issue again of people choosing one weapon over another like in previous editions and also making it clear that their roles are significantly different to one another so one doesn't just do the same job as the other one, but better.

Also don't forget that your comparison with a DA and SM is that they have built in systems in their army to increase the accuracy of their shots, as well as having more durable platforms AND you have things like built in AP (bolt rifles) or buffs like doctrines, while Eldar have Bladestorm, psychic support like Doom, etc. Shoota Boyz basically have their Klan Trait and that's it.

Ah. So the T4 gretchin were intentional rather than an oversight, and you want to make them -1 to hit as well. I don't think I'm a fan of this. When I picture a T4 unit with a bakes in -1 to hit penalty, I picture something like... nurgle daemons or something. Make T4 gretchin not a thing, and I kind of like them being -1 to hit while in cover. But you'd maybe have to raise their points even then.


I'm fine with Snakebitez being different so T4 gretchin aren't necessarily a thing if people get upset about it, but I feel like people don't understand how useless gretchin are besides sitting on an objective and doing like one action and that's it. They are by far the absolutely worst troops choice in the game now for their points, compare them to something like Poxwalkers and you'll understand why I may have gone a bit on the bigger side of tweaking their rules. That's why I gotta laugh at you suggesting INCREASING their points, when their offensive ability is absolute garbage AND they have a 7+ save, AND they suffer morale easier than almost any other unit in the game. Like look at their stats again and don't tell me that's not insulting for 5 points.


Meganobz: I feel like all they need to do with Meganobz is make them a bit cheaper or make them WS2+ base so that the PK's aren't as much of a liability when getting into CC. Would be nice if we had a Bully Boyz upgrade that you do once for the whole army before deployment where you pay +5 points per Meganob and the unit gets +1WS and +1A.

Paying less than 2 points for +1WS and +1A seems a little cheap, no?


Less than 2 points? I did say that you would pay 5 points per Meganob no? So a unit of 3 would have to pay 15 points. Not exactly a world-ending upgrade considering its a one time thing and Meganobz aren't really strong offensively or defensively speaking.


So T4, -1 to hit, and essentially immune to morale. :\


I'll admit I may have overlooked the cumulative buffs, but keep in mind the -1 to hit is if they're in cover (not always the case for where objectives are depending on the terrain set up) and you have to pay for the runtherd to make them morale


Setting aside my earlier objections to the shoota boy changes, we're talking about hitting 50% more often with a unit armed with S8 guns. (Slightly squiggly math vs vehicles once you factor in the removal of Tank Hunters.) How many extra points do you want to charge for that nearly 50% boost?


Fair point, they're probably too cost efficient now against non-tank targets. Maybe 17 points per guy if they have tankhammers, 21 points if they have rokkit launchas?


Trukk: Either go down in points or make it so they're WS4+ like the buggies and that the wreckin ball upgrade doesn't have the dumb caveat where you can only make one attack with it. Add reinforced ram upgrade for 10 points that allows your trukk to inflict D3 mortal wounds on an enemy unit within 1" of the Trukk on a 4+ after successfully charging an enemy unit. For the grabbin klaw, it can only still make one attack, but if it successfully hits against an enemy MONSTER or Vehicle unit, you can roll a single D6. On a 3+, the MONSTER or VEHICLE unit you hit with the grabbin klaw may not fall back in the controlling player's following turn.

As a dark eldar player, I'm a big fan of giving vehicles a decent WS. D3 MW on a 4+ on all trukks might be a bit much though. For comparison, drukhari have a strat (so usable once per turn) that does d3 mortal wounds to a vehicle, and you can only use it on vehicles that paid for a 5 or 10 point (I forget which) upgrade.

The reason why I bring up the reinforced ram thing is that we technically already have it in the form of the big trakk, which is a HS transport that has the exact same ruling baseline and is both tougher (12 wounds) and faster than the trukk (14" move or 12"). And you don't see that thing being spammed. It currently costs 85 points? And it starts with 2 Big Shootas. I'm fine with it cost 15 points instead because as is, our trukks are basically just overwatch fodder and harrassment units after their cargo is dropped, would like them to have more meaningful combat stats since we can't upgrade the bigshoota at all.


I don't know orks well enough to have strong feelings about this one, but are flash gitz all that bad right now? At BS4+, 3 shots, S6, AP-2, D2, each guy is killing 2/3rds of an intercessor each turn from the comfort of his transport.


Flash Gitz at 27 points is horrendously overpriced and with their gun being heavy and only having 24" range, you need a transport to get them into ideal firing position, negating the BS4+ greatly with the -1 to hit and putting them in a trukk only further inflates their price even more. It also means you can't use the 2CP shoot again strat since you're in a transport. The prevalence of -1D is also another reason why it's not seen very often. There's a reason why you don't see them anywhere in any tourney list.


Raises some red flags for me. +1 shot on burnaz is fine. +1 shot on lootas is a 33% to 50% increse in the unit's firepower depending on how close the target is, and BS 4+ is a 50% boost to how likely they are to hit with each shot. Are lootas really in that bad of shape? A long-ranged unit with autocannon-like firepower and T5 for 17 points seems pretty decent on paper. Like, my drukhari have open-topped transports. I think I could feel pretty good about loading 10 of these guys into a raider.without factoring in your proposed changes.


Yeah I probably overdid this one. I think changing the spanner to add 6" range to the deffguns is probably a better idea since they already have a better shooting platform with the shift to a shoota boy profile.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/15 15:40:31


 
   
Made in us
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First thing I can think of is reverting all our baseline special rules back to how they were. Old ‘ere we go, old mob rule, old dakka. They just felt better to use.

And for blood axes, I think a -1 to hit outside of 12 would feel better?, idk.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
First thing I can think of is reverting all our baseline special rules back to how they were. Old ‘ere we go, old mob rule, old dakka. They just felt better to use.

And for blood axes, I think a -1 to hit outside of 12 would feel better?, idk.


Oh trust me, I wish we could take all our old rules back compared to what we have now. The only one I would tweak is changed DDD! to extra hits on 6's to hit rather than having to roll for it. However, the purpose of this thread is to mostly change rules within the context that has already been provided rather than doing a complete overhaul or reversal. Also, per the 9th ed paradigm, GW really wants it all or nothing for charge rerolls, so I think it would be unfair for us to be the remaining exception.

I was considering the -1 to hit outside of 12 for blood axes, but I feel like that won't be a thing in the future since they've already changed it for Raven Guard and a few other factions that have similar abilities in 9th ed to only apply when they're in cover, so I feel like it's simpler to just have it a shorter range for when we get considered to have +1 to our save even if it isn't relevant for our lightly armoured units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/15 19:01:09


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Grimskul wrote:

Yeah, as you've noted, this is an area where I'm not entirely sure where to go given the weird area T5 makes baby-transhuman works for Orks where it basically only matters against S6-7 attacks or abilities that give +1 to wound. We could keep it and change the caveat that for Gretchin units, they have the same ability but can only be wounded on a 3+ at best instead? I feel like there's a more intuitive way of making units tougher, so I'm all ears for any suggestions.

Seems reasonable to give gretchin their own version of the rule given the wonkyness we're discussing here.


I understand the hesitation, but in my experience the difference is actually minimal for units besides infantry because vehicles ignore the -1 to shoot and move anyways and blast means they can't fire it into combat. Would making it Assault 2 be a good compromise?

Eh. Maybe. I'm almost tempted to have one version for boyz and vehicles where heavy is fine and a different version for bustas who really ought to be moving forward with their guns? But at the same time, making them d3 shots feels like a change that was intended to balance out the change to Heavy. (BS5+ boys on the move hit 1/6th of the time on an average of 2 shots for 2/6ths = 1/3rd chance of hitting versus a single assault shot having a 1/3rd chance of hitting. So advancing rokkits can't shoot, but moving rokkits hit just as often and actually do better than they used to if you hold still or shoot into large squads.)


Are these still basically kulturs that you get instead of normal kulturs that only buff highly-specific units? If so, seems like they're functionally just a really niche kultur that you'd want to put on that vanguard of burnaz or whatever. If not, would it make more sense to just make these into unit upgrade stratagems similar to Veteran Intercessors?


You basically get one specialist mob per detachment, and you swap out the KLAN keyword and replace it with the specific specialist mob keyword, so you don't get the benefits of HQ auras that target KLAN units, nor can you use most KLAN based strats. It's also restricted based on the type of unit that's available to the subkultur, so Flyboyz only applies to FLYERS and Deffkoptas, for example. A lot of them are super situational, like getting Sneaky Gitz giving Boyz, Nob, Warboss, and Kommandos +1AP to when a unit attacks an enemy unit within 1" of a terrain feature. Since like half of them are things you would never bother taking over a Klan kultur, and its stuck being a 1 time upgrade for only one unit per detachment, I feel like you can't really spam it. If needed, you could restrict it so that you can never take more than one of each type in your army, but that would really kill Trukk Boyz as an archetype for normal Ork troops atm.

Ah. Got it. Your proposal is probably reasonable then. Seems like a slightly weird rule in general. Almost like a roundabout version of the optional exarch and harlequin powers.


The secondary specifies that you can only score at the end of your turn if you have a unit of 11 or more models each wholly within two table quarters, I believe you score 5 if you have 4 units of 11 or more in each table quarter at the end of the turn. So basically it doesn't count the number of total models in a table quarter but rather its based on if there is a unit that has 11 or more models, which at the time being, is a serious liability and basically unheard of because of how bad taking large mobs of boyz are right now.

Gotcha. Your proposal makes sense.


I assume the Weirdboy would go up 10 points, so from 70 to 80. Thanks for catching that, wall of text makes it easy for this to slip.

Sounds good!


His fluff is that he literally has cybork legs to keep up with others to heal people, which is part of the reason why I think having 10" move is fine so he can actually move with his intended charges versus having to advance every turn.

Ah. That makes sense. I see it on the model now. Your proposal is probably fine, although I sort of suspect GW is going to end up releasing a mounted version of this guy at some point.

However, I think the drawback on suffering mortal wounds makes it clear it's not pure benefit (I can make it be inflicted on a roll of 1-2 per model instead if needed) and having it occur in the command phase and being limited to a unit within 3" means it's not as flexible as Warpath can be to buff certain units. I feel like it's a sufficient way to demonstrate a Mad Dok's experiments without having to roll on a random table while also not being as abnoxious as a SM apothecary flat out bringing back dead models, so if it feels strong I'm up for jacking up the cost of the Painboss to 100 points if the buffs seem that strong, though personally I don't feel like it'll break the game.

Hmm. Making it inflict MW on a 1-2 makes the offensive application interesting. You're giving up about 1/3rd of the unit to get a round or two of better offensive stats. It's an interesting decision, and I think I like it. That does make the defensive application a little weird though. You have to weigh the benefits of some of your opponent's offense wounding less often against the extra casualties you'll take by using the ability in the first place. I wonder if this should maybe be split into several different abilities that you choose from during list creation. That way, you could adjust the downsides to make sense for the defensive version, simplify the ability overall, and adjust when the downside occurs to whatever makes the most sense.

For the record, I'm not sure going the apothecary route is a bad fit for orks. It's a pain on marines because they can revive 6 wound outriders at full health, but reviving an ork boy or two is probably fine.



I'll be honest, this one I was kinda just throwing this one around. Ghazzy is definitely overpriced for what he does right now, I started relatively low since I like to be conservative when it comes to points cuts. Feel free to give any suggestions on how much he should cost atm.

Oh, I have no idea. I just like to poke at points adjustments that I don't understand. Sometimes I learn something, and sometimes people are tweaking points for the heck of it. A 25 point decrease seems like a reasonable starting point for playtesting. Could go with a more dramatic reduction of 50 points just to give yourself a better idea of the implications of a price reduction.



I think this is where a bit of your lack of experience of understanding Orks is coming into play here, because shoota boyz are basically a non-entity in Ork lists right now. S4 AP0 shooting on a BS5+ platform is a joke, especially so when you need to get within 9" to get 3 shots per boy or you have to blow 2CP to get a full complement of shots from a unit of Shoota Boyz. Given that taking large mob of boyz are a huge liability right now due to morale, even taking them in trukks is pretty bad because that caps their total potential of shots to 24 shots, 36 if you're lucky to be in dakka range. This doesn't factor anything else like dense cover or light cover that can make it even harder to hit or deal damage to units.

And as far as being decent in melee, 2 attacks at S4 really isn't a selling point in this edition when everyone and their mother has like 2 attacks base nowadays, often with AP-1 or an additional attack from chainswords or whatever. Lacking the AP-1 and attack from a choppa means they do pitiful amounts of damage against the majority of MEQ armies or even just armies with 4+ armour and even against chaff units it's a depressing amount of damage. Boyz in combat basically need to go all in with choppas to get the tipping point of the right amount of attacks and AP to do meaningful damage. The Nob is no longer the scary boogeyman it was in 5th ed as I feel like more often than not, taking a PK on them just makes them miss more often and with -1D everywhere, you're paying a premium for very little damage potential which is why most Ork players take double choppas on them.

That all seems well-reasoned, but orks shooting better than guardsmen (who also don't have a lot of shooting buffs outside of FRFSRF) still makes me hesitate. For discussion's sake, let's say you left them at BS4+ but gave shoota boyz the +1 shots rule. You'd be looking at 6(?) S4 AP0 attacks between shooting and melee compared to a choppa boy'z 5(?) S4 attacks (4 of which are AP-1, and one of which is a slugga shot). Between the extra attack and the range of several of those attacks (don't have to make the charge to use 4/6ths of the shootas' shots), would that balance the two against each other? You'd have shootas who can contribute while holding objectives or coming in from reserves, and then choppas that hit a little harder but have to get into melee to do most of their damage.


And with boyz almost being double the cost of guardsmen (at least right now before my changes, at 9 ppm), yes they should definitely have a slight edge over guardsmen for shooting given that we have no reroll buffs available.

You'd know better than I would, but I'm not sure shootas actually need to be better than guardsmen at shooting specifically. They're considerably harder to wound thanks to T5, and they'll outperform the guardsmen in melee. And the stats of the shoota partially cancel out the drawback of their inferior BS. Shoota boyz being slightly less good than guardsmen at shooting but making up for it in melee power and toughness seems about right to me.


Also don't forget that your comparison with a DA and SM is that they have built in systems in their army to increase the accuracy of their shots, as well as having more durable platforms AND you have things like built in AP (bolt rifles) or buffs like doctrines, while Eldar have Bladestorm, psychic support like Doom, etc. Shoota Boyz basically have their Klan Trait and that's it.

Eh. Fair enough, but comparisons get murky when we start bringing in support units that cost points.

Like look at their stats again and don't tell me that's not insulting for 5 points.

I don't disagree, but also I feel like the real issue here is that GW didn't spread out the points costs of gretchin, cultists, conscripts, and guardsmen when they tweaked all the points costs at the start of 9th. Making 5 points the minimum floor for cheap units is fine, but gretchin should cost less than guardsmen. So my ideal solution here would be to up the cost of dozens of other units to make a 5 point baseline for gretchin make sense, but that's a messy job.


Meganobz: I feel like all they need to do with Meganobz is make them a bit cheaper or make them WS2+ base so that the PK's aren't as much of a liability when getting into CC. Would be nice if we had a Bully Boyz upgrade that you do once for the whole army before deployment where you pay +5 points per Meganob and the unit gets +1WS and +1A.

Paying less than 2 points for +1WS and +1A seems a little cheap, no?


Less than 2 points? I did say that you would pay 5 points per Meganob no? So a unit of 3 would have to pay 15 points. Not exactly a world-ending upgrade considering its a one time thing and Meganobz aren't really strong offensively or defensively speaking.

My bad. Somehow I read that as 5 points per squad.


So T4, -1 to hit, and essentially immune to morale. :\


I'll admit I may have overlooked the cumulative buffs, but keep in mind the -1 to hit is if they're in cover (not always the case for where objectives are depending on the terrain set up) and you have to pay for the runtherd to make them morale

Still feels a bit much to me. Plus, I think you risk turning them into a really frustrating unit for your opponent. (In a bad way.) In the past, gretchin have been fun for me to shoot up, even if shooting them is an inefficient use of points. It feels good to have my shurikens wound something on a 2+ and pick up big clumps of models that then actually fail morale for once. With these changes, my shurikens would suffer a to-hit penalty, wound gretchin less often than guardsmen, and be basically immune to morale (which can be a big deal if you invest in a blob of them). I think the best solution for gretchin is probably just to make them cheaper than every other model in the game so that ork players can lose a squad of them and be happy about it.


Setting aside my earlier objections to the shoota boy changes, we're talking about hitting 50% more often with a unit armed with S8 guns. (Slightly squiggly math vs vehicles once you factor in the removal of Tank Hunters.) How many extra points do you want to charge for that nearly 50% boost?


Fair point, they're probably too cost efficient now against non-tank targets. Maybe 17 points per guy if they have tankhammers, 21 points if they have rokkit launchas?

Without crunching numbers, that feels about right.



I don't know orks well enough to have strong feelings about this one, but are flash gitz all that bad right now? At BS4+, 3 shots, S6, AP-2, D2, each guy is killing 2/3rds of an intercessor each turn from the comfort of his transport.


Flash Gitz at 27 points is horrendously overpriced and with their gun being heavy and only having 24" range, you need a transport to get them into ideal firing position, negating the BS4+ greatly with the -1 to hit and putting them in a trukk only further inflates their price even more. It also means you can't use the 2CP shoot again strat since you're in a transport. The prevalence of -1D is also another reason why it's not seen very often. There's a reason why you don't see them anywhere in any tourney list.

I'm sure you're right; you know the army and I don't. Still, I look at them and compare them to my dark reapers' S5 AP-2 D2 Heavy 2 profile. My reapers hit 0.333 more times per model (assuming you move) and can shoot from twice as far away, but your flashgitz can shoot from inside a vehicle (functionally giving them an almost as good range). Reapers are one of my craftworlders' better units, and flashgitz seem, on paper, to be performing a similar role nearly as well, so your assessment surprises me.


Raises some red flags for me. +1 shot on burnaz is fine. +1 shot on lootas is a 33% to 50% increse in the unit's firepower depending on how close the target is, and BS 4+ is a 50% boost to how likely they are to hit with each shot. Are lootas really in that bad of shape? A long-ranged unit with autocannon-like firepower and T5 for 17 points seems pretty decent on paper. Like, my drukhari have open-topped transports. I think I could feel pretty good about loading 10 of these guys into a raider.without factoring in your proposed changes.


Yeah I probably overdid this one. I think changing the spanner to add 6" range to the deffguns is probably a better idea since they already have a better shooting platform with the shift to a shoota boy profile.

The board is small enough these days that I'm not sure an extra 6" really does anything to help deffguns. Maybe let the spanner provide some sort of buff to a single model in the unit instead of buffing the whole squad? So maybe one boy can get +1 to-wound and damage but dies on a to-hit roll of 1 or something. Or a simpler rule: while the spanner is alive, the lootas can overwatch for free; the spanner isn't busy shooting, so he notices the squad of beakies wiv jump packs what just landed behind the ladz.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/16 00:22:00



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






First off, I want to say I appreciate you taking the time to give your feedback Wyldhunt, much appreciated and it's great to have an outsider perspective.

Eh. Maybe. I'm almost tempted to have one version for boyz and vehicles where heavy is fine and a different version for bustas who really ought to be moving forward with their guns? But at the same time, making them d3 shots feels like a change that was intended to balance out the change to Heavy. (BS5+ boys on the move hit 1/6th of the time on an average of 2 shots for 2/6ths = 1/3rd chance of hitting versus a single assault shot having a 1/3rd chance of hitting. So advancing rokkits can't shoot, but moving rokkits hit just as often and actually do better than they used to if you hold still or shoot into large squads.)


It would be nice to have a version similar to how the profile changed based on the platform, but I'm not sure how we would go about it. Maybe make it Dakka 2/1 for infantry units and Heavy D3 for when it's on vehicles? Makes it so it incentivizes your units to advance forward to get within dakka range while not penalizing vehicles who should be stable enough to fire more consistently?



Ah. Got it. Your proposal is probably reasonable then. Seems like a slightly weird rule in general. Almost like a roundabout version of the optional exarch and harlequin powers.


Yeah, it's a bit wonky but it's what I have to work with. It's better than our previous iteration where you had to dedicate an entire detachment.

Hmm. Making it inflict MW on a 1-2 makes the offensive application interesting. You're giving up about 1/3rd of the unit to get a round or two of better offensive stats. It's an interesting decision, and I think I like it. That does make the defensive application a little weird though. You have to weigh the benefits of some of your opponent's offense wounding less often against the extra casualties you'll take by using the ability in the first place. I wonder if this should maybe be split into several different abilities that you choose from during list creation. That way, you could adjust the downsides to make sense for the defensive version, simplify the ability overall, and adjust when the downside occurs to whatever makes the most sense.

For the record, I'm not sure going the apothecary route is a bad fit for orks. It's a pain on marines because they can revive 6 wound outriders at full health, but reviving an ork boy or two is probably fine.


That's fair. To be honest, I think that's a good call. Painboss' can at the beginning of the game choose between two wargear: Dok's Tools and Fightin' Juice.

Mad Dok's Tools: At the start of the command phase, choose a friendly Ork INFANTRY, CAVALRY, or BIKER "KLAN" unit within 3" of the Painboss. The Painboss can restore a single friendly model that was removed as a casualty from the unit on a roll of a 3+ with full wounds. If the unit that is chosen has the BOYZ keyword, you may instead restore 2D3 models instead. A unit can only be affected by Mad Dok's Tools or Dok's Tools once per phase.

Fightin' Juice: At the start of the command phase, choose a friendly Ork INFANTRY, CAVALRY, or BIKER within 3" of the Painboss. The chosen unit gains +1S and +1A until the start of the next command phase, but must immediately roll a die for each model in the unit. On a roll of a 1 or 2, the unit suffers a mortal wound.

Painboyz would then only have access to Dok's Tools rule, except their version only heals D3 BOYZ models instead.


Oh, I have no idea. I just like to poke at points adjustments that I don't understand. Sometimes I learn something, and sometimes people are tweaking points for the heck of it. A 25 point decrease seems like a reasonable starting point for playtesting. Could go with a more dramatic reduction of 50 points just to give yourself a better idea of the implications of a price reduction.


Yeah, that's fair. I'd have to actually test Ghazzy with the 275 points to see if its a noticeable difference or not.


That all seems well-reasoned, but orks shooting better than guardsmen (who also don't have a lot of shooting buffs outside of FRFSRF) still makes me hesitate. For discussion's sake, let's say you left them at BS4+ but gave shoota boyz the +1 shots rule. You'd be looking at 6(?) S4 AP0 attacks between shooting and melee compared to a choppa boy'z 5(?) S4 attacks (4 of which are AP-1, and one of which is a slugga shot). Between the extra attack and the range of several of those attacks (don't have to make the charge to use 4/6ths of the shootas' shots), would that balance the two against each other? You'd have shootas who can contribute while holding objectives or coming in from reserves, and then choppas that hit a little harder but have to get into melee to do most of their damage.


Guardsmen do have potential shooting buffs from the Cadian doctrine or order/relic, as well as Vostroyan +1 to hit strat (though you'd probably never use it on an infantry squad), or Yarrick's/Harker's reroll 1's to hit aura. In any case though, yeah what you're saying is pretty much what I'm aiming for. Worst case scenario I'm fine with losing the +1 shot for the dakka weapons ability and just having them at BS4+ to see how shoota boyz do. I don't think they'll be very good without it, since the best they can clear will be chaff, but I'm willing to test out if there's a tipping point between reasonable and OP levels of dakka.

You'd know better than I would, but I'm not sure shootas actually need to be better than guardsmen at shooting specifically. They're considerably harder to wound thanks to T5, and they'll outperform the guardsmen in melee. And the stats of the shoota partially cancel out the drawback of their inferior BS. Shoota boyz being slightly less good than guardsmen at shooting but making up for it in melee power and toughness seems about right to me.


The main reason why I'm emphasizing on the shooting profile buff for the shoota boyz and splitting them off to begin with is because if the shoota boyz are basically almost on par with slugga boyz close combat wise then slugga boyz won't be taken since you'll have two phases to do damage to the enemy versus being optimized for just one, and in the past there was almost always one dominant form of boyz mob for either shootas or sluggas and I'd prefer if they were flat out separate units so people's collections for one or the other isn't completely invalidated like it is now competitively.

Eh. Fair enough, but comparisons get murky when we start bringing in support units that cost points.


Yeah, but basically right now even things that don't cost points for Orks, like the two WAAAGH!'s, really don't benefit shoota boyz who don't want to advance and charge because they can't also shoot their dakka weapons, and SpeedWAAAGH! literally does nothing for them. After that, you have no other unit that synergizes with their weapons and you have to rely solely on their klan trait for synergy. At least craftworlds have battle focus to allow them to advance and shoot without penalty. Throw things like Doctrines in and it makes shootas look like peashooters.

I don't disagree, but also I feel like the real issue here is that GW didn't spread out the points costs of gretchin, cultists, conscripts, and guardsmen when they tweaked all the points costs at the start of 9th. Making 5 points the minimum floor for cheap units is fine, but gretchin should cost less than guardsmen. So my ideal solution here would be to up the cost of dozens of other units to make a 5 point baseline for gretchin make sense, but that's a messy job.


Oh, 100% agreed, GW really fethed up with 5 points being the minimum floor and not taking advantage of a larger granularity pool for stats. Unfortunately, the point of my post here isn't to fix GW's overall pricing scheme, so I kind of have to work within the system and make grots not horrible.

Still feels a bit much to me. Plus, I think you risk turning them into a really frustrating unit for your opponent. (In a bad way.) In the past, gretchin have been fun for me to shoot up, even if shooting them is an inefficient use of points. It feels good to have my shurikens wound something on a 2+ and pick up big clumps of models that then actually fail morale for once. With these changes, my shurikens would suffer a to-hit penalty, wound gretchin less often than guardsmen, and be basically immune to morale (which can be a big deal if you invest in a blob of them). I think the best solution for gretchin is probably just to make them cheaper than every other model in the game so that ork players can lose a squad of them and be happy about it.


If i could make them 3 points a model again, I would. The problem is their literal role is to only sit there and hope they survive on an objective or after they perform an action. They have basically negligible damage output, which means they need some kind of defensive stats to justify the 5 point price point. Assuming we have to stick with GW's 5 point minimum, I would suggest making them back to having a 6+ save and keep the Dimunitive rule as is which makes them have a 4+ save in cover instead of -1 to hit. After that I would keep the runtherder's squig hound rule to just make it so they don't take combat attrition modifiers. I think that's the most I can compromise as far as grots go.

I'm sure you're right; you know the army and I don't. Still, I look at them and compare them to my dark reapers' S5 AP-2 D2 Heavy 2 profile. My reapers hit 0.333 more times per model (assuming you move) and can shoot from twice as far away, but your flashgitz can shoot from inside a vehicle (functionally giving them an almost as good range). Reapers are one of my craftworlders' better units, and flashgitz seem, on paper, to be performing a similar role nearly as well, so your assessment surprises me.


I think the big difference is the support in the army again. Eldar have fire and fade so you can retreat back into a much more protective Wave Serpent or behind obscuring cover and they always hit on a 3+ for reapers even on the move. Having 36" range also helps. While they're certainly defensively not a match for Flash Gitz, Reapers have a significant edge where mobility wise they're worth the cost and they also have the flexibility of two different firing modes for different targets, you have a flat 3 damage option that gives you the versatility to handle -1D targets. Throw in the additional support from psychic powers or Autarch reroll aura and you're golden. Your Exarch extra shot power is also very strong. Meanwhile Flash Gitz basically have to rely on proccing their Freebootas trait or maybe Bad Moonz for extra range but again lack any real army support to buff their shooting or offset the -1 to hit for their mid-range weaponry.

The board is small enough these days that I'm not sure an extra 6" really does anything to help deffguns. Maybe let the spanner provide some sort of buff to a single model in the unit instead of buffing the whole squad? So maybe one boy can get +1 to-wound and damage but dies on a to-hit roll of 1 or something. Or a simpler rule: while the spanner is alive, the lootas can overwatch for free; the spanner isn't busy shooting, so he notices the squad of beakies wiv jump packs what just landed behind the ladz.


I think your overwatch idea is probably the best one, though the only problem with that is chances are the lootas are in a trukk so I don't think it would come up very often. I guess making it basically a signum for the unit makes sense, so the +1 to wound and damage is probably the best call and I like the self-death potential.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/16 01:51:10


 
   
 
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