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Hiya,

so.... Imperial guard... sorry AM

I'm building an army, so I need TROOPS and TANKS!!!!

troops is where i'm struggling, loads of options and loads of troops required, Seems to be there's economic ways of doing it though.

Now i'm new to AM so i'm hoping for help in terms of covering the bases.

Back in my WHFB days, you bought a regiment and that was that, 20 blokes in a block and your done. Now AM have conscripts, vets, guardsmen, heavy weapons, special weapons commanders... flags... etc etc etc etc

My aim is not only to build for gaming but I want a good looking army on my shelf too, I want to know what I've got and therefore know what i'm getting next.

I have 10 guardsmen. 1 has a flamer, one has vox. Just got a command squad, so another vox, a sniper and a medic... and a flag....

I'd like to create larger "squads" "units" within my building of the army, i.e.

Squad 1
Sargent
10 normal guardsmen (i.e. lasguns nothing more)
1 special weapon (i.e. flamer etc)
1 heavy weapons team (the larger based 2 man team)
1 transport mostly chimeras.

This allows me to take the normal plain tabletop unit, but also have options in the squad for other builds as and when the time comes.

For each 5 squad add a commmander

Also for each 5 man squad add a veteran squad and a special weapons squad

left over tropps can be chucked as "conscripts"

I don't think I need any more than the one battle standard

Not sure how many medics to consider.

Will I need more commanders really?

this is all mainly to decide on my next purchase - I'm considering the £110 defence force box, should really bulster my troop selection, but do I want another command sqaud? but then I can use those models as above and move them into different squads.

It seems the best value way of adding to my growing force.

Morthraen wrote:
Hiya,

so.... Imperial guard... sorry AM

I'm building an army, so I need TROOPS and TANKS!!!!

troops is where i'm struggling, loads of options and loads of troops required, Seems to be there's economic ways of doing it though.

Now i'm new to AM so i'm hoping for help in terms of covering the bases.

Back in my WHFB days, you bought a regiment and that was that, 20 blokes in a block and your done. Now AM have conscripts, vets, guardsmen, heavy weapons, special weapons commanders... flags... etc etc etc etc

My aim is not only to build for gaming but I want a good looking army on my shelf too, I want to know what I've got and therefore know what i'm getting next.

I have 10 guardsmen. 1 has a flamer, one has vox. Just got a command squad, so another vox, a sniper and a medic... and a flag....

I'd like to create larger "squads" "units" within my building of the army, i.e.

Squad 1
Sargent
10 normal guardsmen (i.e. lasguns nothing more)
1 special weapon (i.e. flamer etc)
1 heavy weapons team (the larger based 2 man team)
1 transport mostly chimeras.

This allows me to take the normal plain tabletop unit, but also have options in the squad for other builds as and when the time comes.

For each 5 squad add a commmander

Also for each 5 man squad add a veteran squad and a special weapons squad

left over tropps can be chucked as "conscripts"

I don't think I need any more than the one battle standard

Not sure how many medics to consider.

Will I need more commanders really?

this is all mainly to decide on my next purchase - I'm considering the £110 defence force box, should really bulster my troop selection, but do I want another command sqaud? but then I can use those models as above and move them into different squads.

It seems the best value way of adding to my growing force.

First thing to note is Command Squads serve no functional role in the structure of the list anymore. You can have em if you want but not needed.


You sound a bit like me, want the force looking like a proper structure.

Here is my infantry element of my army (heavy weapons not shown).

450 Regiment. 1st company.

1st platoon on left with its 1st lt. (4 sqauds) (No such thing in the actual game as a platoon, just squads...I created the first and 2nd platoon, led by a LT each for a more military feel).

2nd platoon on right with it lt (3 squads).

Company commander, commissar and psyker in middle, with a command squad carrying the company/regimental banner.

Anything else like heavy weps, ogryns or tempestus I consider company attachments.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS in late Nov we might see some GW army deal boxes... Great value if they do them this year.

Your basic unit is the Guardsmen and they fill the Troops slots nicely. In previous editions the Troops choice was filled by a Platoon but this is no longer the case, however you can still use the structure in your army for aesthetics.
The Defence Force box is a good shout because all the Infantry are interchangeable i.e. the heads, bodies, legs, arms and backpacks can be swapped around with no problems at all and if you don't want to use the Command Squad then the models can be used to make extra Heavy or Special Weapons models to swap out in your Troop units.

To add, scroll down for the Xmas AM Battleforce from last Xmas....
https://www.firestormgames.co.uk/astra-militarum---bastion-platoon

and if it helps, Element Games do some good Infantry and Armour deals(look at Bundles section)
https://elementgames.co.uk/games-workshop/warhammer-40k/imperial-guard

It's pretty easy to kitbash normal guardsmen into extra crew for heavy weapons teams too. I got a full set of mortars and lascannons out of one set that way and made "squad" autocannons and heavy bolters as well.

Question: how keen are you on 3rd party models? There are plenty of more economical ways to build a Guard army than with official models. Won't work if you are playing at an official GW store, and possibly some local game stores as well (though if you buy through them they might mind less), but for garage hammer it is great.

Wargames Atlantic has quite a few "not Guard" kits that are mostly compatible with Cadians with just the tiniest bit of work.


If going official models, and Cadians specifically...it really depends. I don't know if they threw the new sprue they added to Cadians into the Defense Force or the Start Collecting box. Considering the price hasn't risen by 20$ on either of them I'm guessing no. Basically, if you want more infantry for your money, and also want some of the tanks and commissars, go for maybe one of each - if you get some 60mm bases offline, you can easily spread the heavy weapons out with that set.

If you are looking for special weapons, honestly a coin toss, they jacked both the Command Squad and the regular Cadians up so much its really a hard sell either way. Regular Cadians have all the weapon options though now, and more bodies, so unless you specifically want more officer bodies, go mostly with Cadians. If you can find a discount seller it will hurt less.

Basically, the box sets for boys, the individual kits for toys.

I think guard armies tend to be built over a long time, so I'd suggest building yours in blocks, a couple of start collecting sets would be a good place to start, plus maybe the GSC brood brothers guard squad (you get another heavy weapon team in this which you don't get in the standard box for practically the same price)

There are some videos on the Warhammer TV YT channel that deal with converting Plasma guns for human scale models and there's plenty of conversions on the Internet. As long as you aren't adverse to a little bit of cutting then it's pretty easy to get SW squads with things like Plasma/Meltas.

What I did first was choose a Real Life OOB I was imitating/following, and then riff off of that. It helped me avoid the "BUY ONE OF EVERYTHING" problem you seem to be encountering (e.g. the desire to make every squad able to do every job).

Take my Armageddon Steel Legion for example. I chose a late 1980s Soviet mechanized infantry company (the type deployed to their invasion of Afghanistan), which consists of:

1x Company Commander, 1x Deputy Company Commander (political officer), 3x enlisted (company sergeant major etc)
1x BMP

1x Weapons Platoon, consisting of:
3x PKM (machine gun) or AGS-17 teams (automatic grenade launchers, for both direct and indirect fire)
2x NSV 12.7mm HMG teams
2x BMP

3x Line Platoons, each consisting of:
1x Platoon Commander
1x Deputy Platoon Commander
3x line squads (8 men in each, 24 men total)
3x BMPs

Now, to convert it to Imperial Guard, I had to consider:
- What does the Weapons Platoon look like? I eventually chose Heavy Bolter HWS as the closest analogue to the .50cals and mortar teams as the closest analogue HWS to the AGS grenade launcher (since it is capable of indirect fire and represents the company's indirect fire assets)

- What do Line Platoons look like? 24 men per platoon, in 3 squads, with a Platoon Commander (since the Deputy Platoon Commander usually commands the BMPs and does not disembark, I simply assumed he would be a Chimera crewman). 3x Chimeras, obviously. The options were:
- 3 10 Man squads with a platoon commander. This is valid!
- 2 10 man squads and 1 Command Squad for the Platoon Commander. I went with this, as the billets that an Imperial Guard army puts in the command squad (e.g. medic, special troopers) still exist in the Soviet platoon, and I get 3x Chimeras (BMPs) either way.

- What do I do about anti-tank, since there's no ATGM section? Well, I looked at the real-life reason why there was no anti-tank section in the company and the answer was that the BMPs themselves have ATGMs, and quite accurate ones at that. So I slapped Hunter Killer Missiles on the Chimeras, and gave them Augur Arrays (to make sure they hit. Once per game reroll + once per game weapon = easy to remember).

I ended up with a TO&E that looks like:
1x Company Commander
1x Commissar
Command Squad
Chimera

2x Heavy Weapon Squads (1 mortar, 1 Heavy Bolter)
2x Chimera

3 platoons of:
Platoon Commander
Command Squad
2x Infantry Squads
3x Chimera

Now, I had to do some rejiggering, as this is greater than 100pl AND it's one too many elite's choice for a Battalion detachment, so I dropped the Commissar and promoted one of the Lieutenants (platoon leaders) to Senior Lieutenant (company commander), moving him from Elite to HQ and dropping the Commissar.

This also means the TO&E works with the 4th edition guard codex as well, which I also use, giving me an army that's similar to a real life analogue, has a good amount of options and firepower for deployment, and works in both 40k game systems I play.

Don't bother touching Guard until the new codex drops.

Find a similar army that might appeal to you instead, if it's a question of you just starting out with 40k period.

Tau and AdMech gone heavy on Skitarii aren't bad options in that regard.

OH!
Or if you absolutely, positively must have Guard? Go Scions. They're a subfaction within the main army and they're very likely futureproof at this point.

Huron black heart wrote:I think guard armies tend to be built over a long time, so I'd suggest building yours in blocks, a couple of start collecting sets would be a good place to start, plus maybe the GSC brood brothers guard squad (you get another heavy weapon team in this which you don't get in the standard box for practically the same price)

yeah that's the aim really, buying sensibly and build it up, i'm only really in a rush to play, not to complete the collection.

Unit1126PLL wrote:What I did first was choose a Real Life OOB I was imitating/following, and then riff off of that. It helped me avoid the "BUY ONE OF EVERYTHING" problem you seem to be encountering (e.g. the desire to make every squad able to do every job).

Take my Armageddon Steel Legion for example. I chose a late 1980s Soviet mechanized infantry company (the type deployed to their invasion of Afghanistan), which consists of:

1x Company Commander, 1x Deputy Company Commander (political officer), 3x enlisted (company sergeant major etc)
1x BMP

1x Weapons Platoon, consisting of:
3x PKM (machine gun) or AGS-17 teams (automatic grenade launchers, for both direct and indirect fire)
2x NSV 12.7mm HMG teams
2x BMP

3x Line Platoons, each consisting of:
1x Platoon Commander
1x Deputy Platoon Commander
3x line squads (8 men in each, 24 men total)
3x BMPs

Now, to convert it to Imperial Guard, I had to consider:
- What does the Weapons Platoon look like? I eventually chose Heavy Bolter HWS as the closest analogue to the .50cals and mortar teams as the closest analogue HWS to the AGS grenade launcher (since it is capable of indirect fire and represents the company's indirect fire assets)

- What do Line Platoons look like? 24 men per platoon, in 3 squads, with a Platoon Commander (since the Deputy Platoon Commander usually commands the BMPs and does not disembark, I simply assumed he would be a Chimera crewman). 3x Chimeras, obviously. The options were:
- 3 10 Man squads with a platoon commander. This is valid!
- 2 10 man squads and 1 Command Squad for the Platoon Commander. I went with this, as the billets that an Imperial Guard army puts in the command squad (e.g. medic, special troopers) still exist in the Soviet platoon, and I get 3x Chimeras (BMPs) either way.

- What do I do about anti-tank, since there's no ATGM section? Well, I looked at the real-life reason why there was no anti-tank section in the company and the answer was that the BMPs themselves have ATGMs, and quite accurate ones at that. So I slapped Hunter Killer Missiles on the Chimeras, and gave them Augur Arrays (to make sure they hit. Once per game reroll + once per game weapon = easy to remember).

I ended up with a TO&E that looks like:
1x Company Commander
1x Commissar
Command Squad
Chimera

2x Heavy Weapon Squads (1 mortar, 1 Heavy Bolter)
2x Chimera

3 platoons of:
Platoon Commander
Command Squad
2x Infantry Squads
3x Chimera

Now, I had to do some rejiggering, as this is greater than 100pl AND it's one too many elite's choice for a Battalion detachment, so I dropped the Commissar and promoted one of the Lieutenants (platoon leaders) to Senior Lieutenant (company commander), moving him from Elite to HQ and dropping the Commissar.

This also means the TO&E works with the 4th edition guard codex as well, which I also use, giving me an army that's similar to a real life analogue, has a good amount of options and firepower for deployment, and works in both 40k game systems I play.

that's awesome! and pretty much what i'm aiming for, I remember seeing old photos of a complete ultramarine chapter - Fantastic, it's "complete" and that's my aim - of course I can't have billions of troops that would be the entire AM army, but creating something I could call a complete "battalion" or whatever is the aim.

Kanluwen wrote:Don't bother touching Guard until the new codex drops.

Find a similar army that might appeal to you instead, if it's a question of you just starting out with 40k period.

Tau and AdMech gone heavy on Skitarii aren't bad options in that regard.

OH!
Or if you absolutely, positively must have Guard? Go Scions. They're a subfaction within the main army and they're very likely futureproof at this point.

nope nope and nope. Couldn't care less what is and isn't competitive. The main thing for me in this hobby is liking the army I collect. I'm happy to add some scions in but that'll be it. I can't see them binning off Cadians so i'm not worrying too much about obsolescence at this stage. No other army ticks the boxes i'm after other than a "oh that would be fun to paint a few of those"

Morthraen wrote:
that's awesome! and pretty much what i'm aiming for, I remember seeing old photos of a complete ultramarine chapter - Fantastic, it's "complete" and that's my aim - of course I can't have billions of troops that would be the entire AM army, but creating something I could call a complete "battalion" or whatever is the aim.

My advice then would be to pick a company to focus on (or a whole battalion if you want a LOT; I'd stick with a company and build up from there). There's tons of sources out there for Real Life, Historical, and Imperial Guard-centric TO&Es for company sized units. Find one you super enjoy and build around that!

Like, for example, a U.S. mech "team" from the 1980s, which was a tank company that traded away one of its tank platoons for a mechanized infantry platoon (or visa versa, a mech company with -1 mech platoon and +1 tank platoon).

Morthraen wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Don't bother touching Guard until the new codex drops.

Find a similar army that might appeal to you instead, if it's a question of you just starting out with 40k period.

Tau and AdMech gone heavy on Skitarii aren't bad options in that regard.

OH!
Or if you absolutely, positively must have Guard? Go Scions. They're a subfaction within the main army and they're very likely futureproof at this point.

nope nope and nope. Couldn't care less what is and isn't competitive. The main thing for me in this hobby is liking the army I collect. I'm happy to add some scions in but that'll be it. I can't see them binning off Cadians so i'm not worrying too much about obsolescence at this stage. No other army ticks the boxes i'm after other than a "oh that would be fun to paint a few of those"

I'm less trying to tell you that the army isn't competitive(it 100% can be) and more trying to save you from making purchases that may be invalidated given the current circumstances surrounding a highly accurate rumor drop made a few months back which explicitly calls out a fully new Cadian kit release sometime next year.

The "new" Cadian set that GW is selling right now for the absurd price of $45? It's simply a new frame bolted in. They didn't even bother putting in a Heavy Weapon Team to actually give you 100% all of the options like they did with the Brood Brothers box.

IF I were going for Cadians right now, and IF I had the foreknowledge of a new kit next year...

I'd buy Leman Russes. I'd buy Sentinels. I'd buy Hydras/Wyverns. I'd buy Scions. I'd buy Valkyries. Maybe some Ogryn/Bullgryn.


That rumor, FYI, originated from someone who called the DKoK v Kommando box a year out. They've got one miss right now, in that they called a Black Templar Ancient model as happening but it was a really, really, really well-done conversion by one of the literal sculptors of the BT range instead.

Squats are in the pipeline?! Maybe they are stuck there and couldn´t get out in the last twenty years.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Squats are in the pipeline?! Maybe they are stuck there and couldn´t get out in the last twenty years.

There's a short joke in here, but I'd have to dig around to find it.

@OP
Re: 3rd party minis - Personally, I would suggest looking into the Big 3: Mad Robot Miniatures, Victoria Miniatures, and Anvil Industries. If you find a real-world TO&E that really takes your heart, chances are that something one of the above sells would be close enough to the real-world gear from that TO&E to give you some visual distinction beyond just "Cadians except not olive/khaki" (and also spare special/heavy weapons if you find yourself a little short - fair warning, though, you likely won't save any money by doing this. You'd really need to watch eBay/bits sites to make Guard for cheaper than MSRP). IG have the benefit of being the easiest to kitbash while still looking "right", and while some shops would frown on 3rd party anything, that is something that seems specific to each shop (they may care, they may allow it as long as you don't say where you got it, they may not care at all, etc.). Ask around if you're curious, and don't let what the shop will allow get in the way of you building something you want.

Do they have to be GW models?

 Strg Alt wrote:
Squats are in the pipeline?! Maybe they are stuck there and couldn´t get out in the last twenty years.

Issue is that we don't know how far out things are, but yeah. Bob from War of Sigmar killed the idea of it being a small(no pun intended) Kill-Team and called out a Thudd Gun for them.

I would be shocked if the new IG codex wholesale invalidated armies like:

1) mechanized companies
2) infantry companies
3) tank companies

Yeah I’m not wanting 3rd party. I’ll stick with gw plenty of interest there for me

If there was a set date of release and I knew what it included I might agree but I don’t so I’ll just keep getting stuff.

I’m gunna wait for thursdays Xmas bundle and see what that includes.

Part of the fun of a long term army is seeing the various iterations of stuff in there. If they release new stuff then my old stuff loses nothing even if it’s just sitting on a shelf


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do like the idea of emulating a battalion from real life though or a company or similar, will do some reading on what some forces have etc

I just built a guard army from old metals and a few plastic kits. Not painted yet. The background I have is that they're the PDF of an armageddon esque hive world. The army has 3 parts:
- Hive Defense: 2 squads of Cadians with heavy boltets and 3 lascannon and mortar heavy weapon teams, with the planetary marshal and a unit of conscripts with a commisar representing hive militia. This unit has a leman russ demolisher attached and the marshal's storm trooper and veteran squad.
Ash Waste Rangers: 3 squads of steel legion with extra autocannons and special weapons all mounted in mantic mule apcs, with a scout sentinel and a unit of rough riders (american civ war cav from the perrys with gasmask heads and gasmasks sculpted onto the horses) and a lietenant.
- Ork Hunters: Hunting orks in the jungles or the underhive, two units of catachans with a catachan captain, as well as abhuman squads of ratlings and ogryns and bullgryns from the slave ogryns from necromunda and a scout sentinel.

Each of these gets their own psyker for long range communication.

You do you, OP! Be aware that they might not even have a Christmas bundle for Guard.

If you're absolutely, 100% hankering to buy something--Cadian Defence Force.

It's basically a Combat Patrol box for us.

Yeah I’ve seen the defence force, as suggested in first post it’s a box I’m certainly considering, but waiting till Thursday to see if there will be a guard box…and if I want the stuff in it lol

If not there’s certainly more on the “want it coz it looks cool” list before I worry too much

Well, fingers crossed there's a Guard box that you might actually want then. Last year's "Bastion Platoon" was...questionable.

That's just the Defence Force with the Russ swapped for a Hydra and a Sentinel. That kinda sucks.

Oh for sure, if it’s like last years I’ll just get the defence force.

For the sake of a couple of days though it’s worth waiting with fingers crossed that it’s something interesting

They’ll end up proving you right and making a scions specific one

These guys are good if you want cheap and versatile infantry

No I like consistency, I’ll stick with gw stuff for gw games. I’m sure there’s loads out there that’s cheaper or possibly even better but I’m too ocd about keeping it gw

Morthraen wrote:
No I like consistency, I’ll stick with gw stuff for gw games. I’m sure there’s loads out there that’s cheaper or possibly even better but I’m too ocd about keeping it gw

but what if you could print models inspired by old school gw but with modern definition, better scaling, and they cost 15c/model to make... wouldnt that be something.

Buy 3rd party

look at GSC cultists, its the same kit as Cadians x10 + HWT with GSC upgrades, its cheaper than the other 2 kits combined. Also the new cadian kit has loads more weaponry options and heads to make your army more personal. Once you've build with what you have you can look into bits on ebay to make more men, with legs and torso you'll have your conscripts.