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OK, a contiunation of the previous post - can the Ork tankbustas "release" the bomb squigs while inside an open-topped transport?

This is an excerpt from the russian rule compendium online we all know and love:

Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport
Some rules, such as Open-topped, enable units to shoot and make ranged attacks even while embarked within a TRANSPORT model. Each time such an embarked unit is selected to shoot, the following rules apply to it:

1. Stratagems cannot be used on that unit in order to affect its attacks, and you cannot use the Command Re-roll Stratagem to affect any dice rolls made for its models’ ranged attacks.
2. Measure distances and draw line of sight from any point on the TRANSPORT model when models in that unit make the ranged attacks.
3. If the TRANSPORT model made a Normal Move, Advanced, Fell Back or Remained Stationary this turn, embarked units are considered to have done the same when they make ranged attacks.
4. While the TRANSPORT model is within Engagement Range of any enemy units, unless the ability that the TRANSPORT model has that allows its passengers to shoot whilst embarked states otherwise, then models in embarked units cannot make ranged attacks, except with Pistols.
5. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the embarked unit is not affected by the abilities (including aura abilities) of any other unit, even if that unit is also embarked within the same TRANSPORT model.
6. If the unit was under the effects of a rule when it embarked on the TRANSPORT model (such as rules bestowed on it during the Command phase, by a psychic power or a Stratagem etc.) those rules do not apply to that unit whilst it is embarked.
7. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to apply when they make ranged attacks.
8. If a restriction applies to the TRANSPORT model, that same restriction applies to units embarked within it. For example, if the TRANSPORT model is not eligible to shoot with because it has Advanced or Fallen Back this turn, its passengers are not eligible to shoot with.
9. If a TRANSPORT model is under the effects of a modifier to its ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls, etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model makes a ranged attack.

So, the bolded sections I am interested in - the first one says it can shoot/make ranged attacks whilst embarked. So, as the consensus is that the bomb squig roll can't be re-rolled using the Deathskulls ability because it isn't an attack (as in my previous question), does it fall into the ability numbered at 7.? So is that an ability that can be used because they are making a ranged attack when it IS USED? Also, what of ammo runts and nobz/flash gits? Can they use them for re-rolls?

Also, don't know where the rules compendium got the number 7. from, so if anyone can guide me to the official source that'd be great.

Thanks again fellas

For reference, the bomb squig rules:



My interpretation is that you are selecting a unit to shoot, you are not "making ranged attacks" yet. That would only happen in the step after selecting targets, described in "Number of Attacks" in the core rules.
Therefore you do not get to apply 2. and 7. from the open topped rules, which are both necessary to use a squig.

The bomb squig is an ability from the tankbustas, and they can use abilities while embarked, so it works.

 p5freak wrote:
The bomb squig is an ability from the tankbustas, and they can use abilities while embarked, so it works.

It would work if the bomb squig rule did not have this line:

"...you can select one enemy unit (excluding AIRCRAFT) that is within 12" of the unit with a bomb squig..."

How are you measuring to a unit within 12" of a unit that is not on the table?

I concur with DeathReaper. While you can opt to release the Bomb Squig, you are not allowed to measure from your unit not on the board to the target unit. You have a specific exemption when making a Shooting attack due to the Open Topped rule, but Bomb Squig is not a shooting attack.

One more thought came to mind...as it isn't an attack, but an ability, that means that a tankbusta unit that actually CAN'T SEE an enemy unit (for whatever reason), but is within 12" of it, can "attack" it with a bomb squig...silliness galore

Also...units that advanced, cannot shoot - but can they be "selected to shoot"? If the tankbustas armed with only heavy weapons advance, they can't shoot their rokkit launchas, but if they are "selected" to shoot, they release a bomb squig on an enemy unit within 12", and then they can't shoot due to the fact they advanced and are armed with heavy weapons.

Ok, no bomb squig, because you cant measure the 12".

ThulsaDoom wrote:
One more thought came to mind...as it isn't an attack, but an ability, that means that a tankbusta unit that actually CAN'T SEE an enemy unit (for whatever reason), but is within 12" of it, can "attack" it with a bomb squig...silliness galore

No, doesnt work.

When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with (each ranged weapon can only be shot once per phase). The ranged weapons that models in a unit are equipped with are detailed on its datasheet.

Only enemy units can be chosen as the target for an attack. In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic) of the weapon being used and be visible to the shooting model.

When you select a unit to shoot with you target an enemy unit, and you can only target enemy units which are in range of the weapon and are visible to a shooting model.

When you select a unit to shoot with you target an enemy unit, and you can only target enemy units which are in range of the weapon and are visible to a shooting model.

Actually, looking at the Rulebook, the wording goes:
"Start your Shooting phase by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons. Units that Advanced this turn, and units that Fell back (other than TITANIC units) this turn are not eligible. "

So it doesn't work not because you select targets but because even though they fulfill the criteria of being equipped with ranged weapons, but can't because they advanced.

But if they don't advance, even though they don't see the target, they can release a squig.

Also, if only one model had an assault weapon, they could advance AND launch a squig at a target they can't see.

So silly...any way to put this in GW's scope of attention for a FAQ?

P.S. And alsoooooo.....as it isn't an attack, you can target an enemy character even though it is covered due to "Look out sir", or even a "Bodyguard" unit...guess you win some, and lose some - character MW sniping here I come

Selecting a unit to shoot does not require a visible target, nor do you need to throw the squig at the unit you want to shoot. So, you're right.

Fun fact - a unit of kommandoz can advance and use the squig if they have a burna, because it's an assault weapon.

 Jidmah wrote:
Selecting a unit to shoot does not require a visible target, nor do you need to throw the squig at the unit you want to shoot. So, you're right.

Selecting a unit to shoot with requires the unit to have ranged weapons, and you target an enemy unit, but you can only target enemy units which are in range of the weapon and are visible to a shooting model. If there is no enemy unit in range the unit cant be selected to shoot with.

Do you have any rules to support that brave interpretation?

Probably that a unit with an Assault weapon is eligible to be selected to shoot. Once it has bee selected to shoot, it can use the Bomb Squig rule.

 Jidmah wrote:
Do you have any rules to support that brave interpretation?

All the relevant rule have already been quoted. But here they are for you again.

First requirement to select a unit to shoot with is a friendly unit who has ranged weapons. Second requirement to select a unit to shoot with is that you select a target. In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range of the weapon being used and be visible to the shooting model.
Even if your ork unit has an assault weapon, and advanced, you cannot release a bomb squig when there is no enemy unit in range. Because you cannot select that unit to shoot with. You fulfill requirement 1, the unit has ranged weapons, but you dont fulfill requirement 2, an enemy unit is in range, and at least one model from that enemy unit is visible.

According to those rules, there are no requirements for a legal target in order to select a unit to shoot besides having a ranged weapons.

You "select a unit to shoot", then release the bomb squig before going to the step where you select a target. When you find no targets, the sequence ends.

It literally says "An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons." Anything else you highlighted is irrelevant to selecting units to shoot.

 p5freak wrote:
Second requirement to select a unit to shoot with is that you select a target.

That's not what the rules say anywhere, but merely added by you.

 Jidmah wrote:
According to those rules, there are no requirements for a legal target in order to select a unit to shoot besides having a ranged weapons.

You "select a unit to shoot", then release the bomb squig before going to the step where you select a target. When you find no targets, the sequence ends.

It literally says "An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons." Anything else you highlighted is irrelevant to selecting units to shoot.

 p5freak wrote:
Second requirement to select a unit to shoot with is that you select a target.

That's not what the rules say anywhere, but merely added by you.

As it looks like you didnt read this :

When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.....

It doesnt say you may or can select targets. It says select targets, so its mandatory. The next part says you can only select a unit which is in range, and is visible to the shooting model.

In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic) of the weapon being used and be visible to the shooting model.

"When you select a unit to shoot with" is a point in time, not a condition. Don't confuse it for the German "wenn" which can be either. Which means is that it happens after selecting a unit to shoot.

That point in time is the exact moment you can throw your bomb squigs - because it's the exact same wording.

You have permission to select a unit for shooting from the first sentence. None of the other sentences revoke that permission.

 Jidmah wrote:
"When you select a unit to shoot with" is a point in time, not a condition. Don't confuse it for the German "wenn" which can be either. Which means is that it happens after selecting a unit to shoot.

That point in time is the exact moment you can throw your bomb squigs - because it's the exact same wording.

You have permission to select a unit for shooting from the first sentence. None of the other sentences revoke that permission.

No. When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets. Thats what the rules are saying. When you cant select targets, the unit cant be selected to shoot with.

Incorrect. You select the unit to shoot with, then you determine if it has legal targets. You can't do this in the reverse or even parallel order

 p5freak wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
"When you select a unit to shoot with" is a point in time, not a condition. Don't confuse it for the German "wenn" which can be either. Which means is that it happens after selecting a unit to shoot.

That point in time is the exact moment you can throw your bomb squigs - because it's the exact same wording.

You have permission to select a unit for shooting from the first sentence. None of the other sentences revoke that permission.

No. When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets. Thats what the rules are saying. When you cant select targets, the unit cant be selected to shoot with.

How do you determine legal targets without selecting the unit?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect. You select the unit to shoot with, then you determine if it has legal targets. You can't do this in the reverse or even parallel order

Thats not what the rules are saying. Its not :

1. Select an eligible unit to shoot with.
2. Select an enemy unit as target.
3. Determine range and visibility.

Its this, its all one step :

When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.....

You need to measure and determine LOS before you select a unit to shoot with, because thats needed to target an enemy unit.

In order to target an enemy unit, at least one model in that unit must be within range (i.e. within the distance of the Range characteristic) of the weapon being used and be visible to the shooting model.

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect. You select the unit to shoot with, then you determine if it has legal targets. You can't do this in the reverse or even parallel order

Thats not what the rules are saying. Its not :

1. Select an eligible unit to shoot with.
2. Select an enemy unit as target.

Uhm, I suggest you have a good look at the rulebook. Because that's exactly what the book says, even the summary lists them as separate bullet points.

P5 - nope.
WHEN you select a unit to shoot with
- this is literally the first thing that happens
, you....
- this happens after you have done the former.

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect. You select the unit to shoot with, then you determine if it has legal targets. You can't do this in the reverse or even parallel order

Thats not what the rules are saying. Its not :

1. Select an eligible unit to shoot with.
2. Select an enemy unit as target.

Uhm, I suggest you have a good look at the rulebook. Because that's exactly what the book says, even the summary lists them as separate bullet points.

The rules say :

When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.....

Are you really telling me that the quote above is not what the rules are saying ? That i made that up ?

The rule does not say anything about selecting targets being a requirement to select a unit to shoot.

You said "It doesnt say you may or can select targets. It says select targets, so its mandatory. The next part says you can only select a unit which is in range, and is visible to the shooting model."
Going by that interpretation, selecting a valid target for a castellan knight's twin melta also is mandatory. Since you cannot do that unless there is an enemy model within 12", the entire knight is not eligible to shoot and therefore is never allowed to fire any of its guns unless all of them are in range.
Sounds wrong to me.

Just for clarity, this is a screenshot from the battle primer, saying exactly what you said the rules don't say.

 Jidmah wrote:
The rule does not say anything about selecting targets being a requirement to select a unit to shoot.

You said "It doesnt say you may or can select targets. It says select targets, so its mandatory. The next part says you can only select a unit which is in range, and is visible to the shooting model."
Going by that interpretation, selecting a valid target for a castellan knight's twin melta also is mandatory. Since you cannot do that unless there is an enemy model within 12", the entire knight is not eligible to shoot and therefore is never allowed to fire any of its guns unless all of them are in range.
Sounds wrong to me.

Thats not what the rules are saying. Not all guns have to be in range.

 Jidmah wrote:

Just for clarity, this is a screenshot from the battle primer, saying exactly what you said the rules don't say.

The box is just a summary, its not the complete rules. You cant use that summary box alone.

Good job we haven't.

When you select a unit to shoot means this is the first part
Then you check range and LOS, which you can only do after you've selected
Yiur idea this is all simultaneously performed has zero support