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Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

What do you think of them? I have not been impressed by either the heavy bolter or the lascannon. (Although the last one can be OK.)

How ever I am really liking how that assault cannon version looks. 12 shots S6. Yes please! Against space marines the heavy bolsters might be just as good. But against 1 wound models the assaultcannon is very tasty. The 125 point raisorback is also one of the best platforms to get assault cannons. (Others include landspeeder and Terminators.)

I am not shure about the multimelta version. It is a legacy model. It costs less then 2 multi melta attack bikes, but is more durable. And it is a transport.

Since I play Space Wolves razorbacks are better then in other space marines. Blood laws, grey hunters are both comoarable to their primaris versions. And long fangs can come in a 6 pack with 5 heavy weapons in it.

   
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Italy

I play 3 razorbacks with assault cannons pretty often. They're not amazing but certainly useful, besides my collection is limited and full firstborn .

Heavy bolters ones are not worthy, unless playing mirror matches maybe, twin lascannons aren't bad but I think SW have plenty of other ways to get ranged effective anti tank. Considering the models I own, having good ranged anti infantry was a priority, so assault cannons transports were the only option.

If I have the points spared I also like to put storm bolters on top of them.

 
   
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Bergen

I have a wider range of models. To large probably. But I aquiered 2 assault cannon tops. I also dicovered my landraider that I rarly use come with one.

Space Marines in general do not get so much out of their troop choises. They are good for holding objectives and generally beeing on the board. But they have so little killing power, and that is what '9th edition is all about'. So doubling down on razorback to get better troops, I can see it. Not the best idea nesaserraly.

   
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Hamburg

Well, Razorbacks are rather expensive shooty platforms.
A friend of mine often uses three of them and parks them on objectives.

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Bergen

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Razorbacks are rather expensive shooty platforms.
A friend of mine often uses three of them and parks them on objectives.


What do you compare them with? Closest comparison I found was Intersceptors. 120 points for 18 S5 shots, deep strike, T5,primaris.

contra 125 points for 12 S6 shots. T7 12 wounds and transport capabilaties.

   
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A Protoss colony world

 Niiai wrote:
But they have so little killing power, and that is what '9th edition is all about'.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious? 9th has a much lower focus on killing and a higher focus on staying alive and holding objectives than any previous edition of 40k. Some armies can still pull off ridiculous alpha strikes, yes, but it's less universal than it was in 8th.

On topic, Razorbacks are really just too expensive for competitive play. They are cool and fun in more casual games, and aren't completely trash. Personally I favor the AssCan versions, but I think the Lascannon ones have a place in some lists.

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Assault cannon is maybe the more overcosted weapon in space marine codex, a couple of them is not optimal for sure. I prefer twin heavy bolter, you always find a target for them
   
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Bergen

Is there a math hammer breakdown of the various weapons I have not seen? Who comes out on topp of the assault cannon and by how high a margin?

   
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Italy

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Assault cannon is maybe the more overcosted weapon in space marine codex, a couple of them is not optimal for sure. I prefer twin heavy bolter, you always find a target for them


Not always, against orks for example Heavy bolters are terrible. Infantries are 1W T3 or T5, and even the most common multiwounds models are typically 3W (bikes and meganobz), while all vehicles reduce damage by 1 against S7 and below. Assault cannons are certainly more useful against both infantries and vehicles. In practise heavy bolters are good only against Flash Gitz and Nobz.

And considering how many armies have T3 infantries and tools to reduce damage by one I'd definitely rate Assault cannons more useful than heavy bolters in general. Heavy bolters are amazing against other marines, other than that they're pretty meh.

 
   
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Bergen

 ZergSmasher wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
But they have so little killing power, and that is what '9th edition is all about'.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious? 9th has a much lower focus on killing and a higher focus on staying alive and holding objectives than any previous edition of 40k. Some armies can still pull off ridiculous alpha strikes, yes, but it's less universal than it was in 8th.

On topic, Razorbacks are really just too expensive for competitive play. They are cool and fun in more casual games, and aren't completely trash. Personally I favor the AssCan versions, but I think the Lascannon ones have a place in some lists.


I am a bit of both. In competetive games people tend to just delete each other. Admech and Dark Eldar just want to mow you down. And they do so effectively. Ork shoot lists deleted a dark eldar army turn one. (This was all pre nerf.) Space Marines push volkite contemtors hard, and they also want to just mow down opponents. Their assault marines hit turn 2 or 3 and do the same. These armies mostly have a real focus on raw killing power.

In more cassual games I only have experience VS an ork and he wants to be aggressive. The game is often over turn 2 where one side is so messed up they can not come back.

VS tyranids I met a gun line army with minimal focus on staying on objectives.

In many armies on battle reports I see on net they tend to last longer. So in some aspects it is a focus om staying on objectives.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/01 08:14:20


   
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Hamburg

 Niiai wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Razorbacks are rather expensive shooty platforms.
A friend of mine often uses three of them and parks them on objectives.


What do you compare them with? Closest comparison I found was Intersceptors. 120 points for 18 S5 shots, deep strike, T5,primaris.

contra 125 points for 12 S6 shots. T7 12 wounds and transport capabilaties.

As an alternative, my friend sometimes uses Rhinos with two storm bolters each.

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Bergen

 wuestenfux wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Razorbacks are rather expensive shooty platforms.
A friend of mine often uses three of them and parks them on objectives.


What do you compare them with? Closest comparison I found was Intersceptors. 120 points for 18 S5 shots, deep strike, T5,primaris.

contra 125 points for 12 S6 shots. T7 12 wounds and transport capabilaties.

As an alternative, my friend sometimes uses Rhinos with two storm bolters each.


As a count as, or as an alterative strategy?

   
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Hamburg

 Niiai wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Razorbacks are rather expensive shooty platforms.
A friend of mine often uses three of them and parks them on objectives.


What do you compare them with? Closest comparison I found was Intersceptors. 120 points for 18 S5 shots, deep strike, T5,primaris.

contra 125 points for 12 S6 shots. T7 12 wounds and transport capabilaties.

As an alternative, my friend sometimes uses Rhinos with two storm bolters each.


As a count as, or as an alterative strategy?

Rhinos are rather cheap units for sitting on objectives early in the game.
The enemy has to deal with them asap, but not all opponents are prepared for this.

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NE Ohio, USA

I run 2-3 razorback in my DA. My primary use for them has always been extra AT, so I'm fine with the twin LC.

The only models I own are the original Las/Plas turrets. Because that was the only option when these were built. I've never bothered adding any other turrets as the L/p served my intent well enough. And I'm not going to.
This is a slight problem her in 9e as the Las/plas isn't even in Legends....
So I give my opponents a choice:
1) ill just pay the current extra cost for the weapons present.
2) ill just pay for the TLC & fire my single barell twice.
1 or 2 LC shots. Either way, I'm still primarily using them as additional AT.
   
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 Blackie wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Assault cannon is maybe the more overcosted weapon in space marine codex, a couple of them is not optimal for sure. I prefer twin heavy bolter, you always find a target for them


Not always, against orks for example Heavy bolters are terrible. Infantries are 1W T3 or T5, and even the most common multiwounds models are typically 3W (bikes and meganobz), while all vehicles reduce damage by 1 against S7 and below. Assault cannons are certainly more useful against both infantries and vehicles. In practise heavy bolters are good only against Flash Gitz and Nobz.

And considering how many armies have T3 infantries and tools to reduce damage by one I'd definitely rate Assault cannons more useful than heavy bolters in general. Heavy bolters are amazing against other marines, other than that they're pretty meh.


Of course there could be a situation where assault cannon is better, but +15 points I think it is overpriced.
   
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Bergen

Could be. It also has shorter range.

It is better VS T3, T5, T6. (Eldar, Guard, Sister, Orks, SM bikes and Gravis Armour) Better VS damage - 1. (Death guard, SM dreadnoughts) Better VS 1 Wound models (CSM for now.) and 3 wound models (Terminators, some bikes.)

That is actually quite a long list when you add them all together.


   
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The Deer Hunter wrote:

Of course there could be a situation where assault cannon is better, but +15 points I think it is overpriced.


I think the question is more about which situation is the Heavy Bolter better? Are there any? The only thing it has on the Assault Cannon is the greater range. Otherwise the double number of shots at higher strength comes out on top.

I think Heavy Bolters are overrated this editon. Even with D2 they're still on the low end of tge firstborn Space Marine heavy weapon arsenal.

For Razorbacks I think TLAC or TLLas are the way to go for sure. I'd definitely consider the Hunter Killer and Storm Bolter upgrades too.

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Bergen

Well the heavy bolter is better. It is cheaper and has better range. It also has an excelent target in the common space marine.

Where the rubber meets the road is that that's about it. In a competetive setting you run into very few actual space marines. A handfull of troops, some jump packs with shield and devestators. And that very same army runs a gak load of dreadnoughts. Whereas admech and drukhari run a lot of troops. Orks in theory have boys (not many). Death guard have good targets as well.

In a non competetive setting many armies are not space marines.

Also, I would argue that the 15 points is not the bad thing, it is the 24 range. But at least space wolves want to be 24 within. Preferably closer so they can charge. If you just want it to sit pritty on objectives there are better options. Even the scout flyer if you want to use a transport on an objective.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 08:08:50


   
Made in it
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Italy

 Niiai wrote:
Orks in theory have boys (not many).


Not just boyz. Kommandos and stormboyz are pretty common. The former can be surprisingly hard to shift. And every vehicle reduces damage by 1 against S7 or below, so heavy bolter vs walkers, buggies, planes, artillery and wagons are actually S5 AP-1 D1 weapons. Assault cannons are the same but +1S. And with vehicles moving and shooting with no penalties the higher ranger of a heavy bolter doesn't really matter.

The point of ass can razorbacks is they can provide something unique for the army. Long fangs can have heavy bolters, there are heavy intercessors and intercessors have AP-1 on regular bolters. There are plasmas, missiles, meltas to deal with elites from range instead of using heavy bolters. S6 high RoF shooting is much harder to get outside razorbacks.

As a bonus if you're using regular firstborns, with lower bolter range than primaris, some extra movement provided by the tanks might be useful. Not to mention the extra protection if they start embarked.

 
   
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Bergen

I struggle to see a home for razorbacks outside of space wolves. The regular marines are just trash when compared to the primaris versions. Blood claws and grey hunters though. They are stil quite good. And to use a razorback at all you need to utelise the transport. Perhaps devestators can ride in them? Long fangs certainly can, with their 5th heavy weapon.

Other shooting platforms are redemptor dread with the gattling cannon, regular dread (lol) long fangs with bolsters, intersceptors with their bolsters. The last one beeing the closest comparison IMHO.

How ever... As long as the volcite contemptor dreadnought is rocking around that is the SM best anti infnatery platform, of course the razorback compares badly.


   
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Hamburg

Razorbacks and Rhinos have transport capacities.
There are units out there for which transport is an option.
Here sadly the Purifiers come to my mind as deep striking does not allow to use their power in the turn they arrive.
So the Rhino/Razorback is the better option to bring them into place.

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Bergen

I did not even think about GK. I don't know them very well.

Deathwatch might also have some good old marines. Their units are a bit confusing from the outside.

   
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Hamburg

The twist with Purifiers is that their deadly psychic power can only be applied with 9'' of the nearest enemy unit,
while deep striking them leaves them outside of 9''.
Here a transport makes the difference.

Its a pity that no one needs to transport oldschool Marines these days.
As said, Volkite Contemptors are the better option.

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Bergen

I have said it many times already. Blood Claws, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs are all great. So somebody's old-school marines can need transports on occasion.

Have you seen a point comparison on volkite weapons?

Twin heavy bolter 15 points:

36" Heavy 6 5 -1 2


Twin volkite culverin 5 points:

45" Heavy 8 6 0 2

Each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any normal damage.

9" more range, 2 shots more, 1S more, 1 AP Less, same damage and it deals mortal wounds on topp of that. And somehow it is 10 points cheaper... That will get addressed at some point.

   
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Hamburg

 Niiai wrote:
I have said it many times already. Blood Claws, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs are all great. So somebody's old-school marines can need transports on occasion.

Have you seen a point comparison on volkite weapons?

Twin heavy bolter 15 points:

36" Heavy 6 5 -1 2


Twin volkite culverin 5 points:

45" Heavy 8 6 0 2

Each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any normal damage.

9" more range, 2 shots more, 1S more, 1 AP Less, same damage and it deals mortal wounds on topp of that. And somehow it is 10 points cheaper... That will get addressed at some point.

But a Dread is better in melee as a pure transport and the Contemptor can have a missile launcher.

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Bergen

I have no idea what you are saying there. A dreadnought is better in melee as a pure transport?

If you are saying a contemptor with 2 guns is better in melee then a razorback I think you are using your shooting platforms wrong.

   
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Hamburg

 Niiai wrote:
I have no idea what you are saying there. A dreadnought is better in melee as a pure transport?

If you are saying a contemptor with 2 guns is better in melee then a razorback I think you are using your shooting platforms wrong.

I know that a shooty platform should keep the enemy at arm's length, but just in case.
I'd be cautious to use a transport and use it only for shooty purposes, as you pay for the transport capability and do not use it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 12:38:00


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Italy

I agree, you need to make use to all the vehicles' ability. But simply protecting the infantries from one turn of shooting can be a good deal. When I play my SW I only have tanks and TWC as valid targets turn one. The opponent must crack the transports in order to damage the infantries. A transport can work even if it doesn't move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 13:33:53


 
   
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 Niiai wrote:
The regular marines are just trash when compared to the primaris versions.
I think that's very wrong. Vanguard and Devastators are very good. Sternguard are basically better Intercessors and Tactical Squads still output more damage than Intercessors, and now have the same defensive profile. The only real thing Intercessors have going for them, imo, is direct Stratagem support (like shoot twice), which is nice. . . But if a Tac Squad just natively outputs more firepower because of it's Grav/Multimelta-Plas Combi or whatever, I'd often favor the unit that doesn't need the Strat support.

 Niiai wrote:
Well the heavy bolter is better. It is cheaper and has better range. It also has an excelent target in the common space marine.

Where the rubber meets the road is that that's about it. In a competetive setting you run into very few actual space marines. A handfull of troops, some jump packs with shield and devestators. And that very same army runs a gak load of dreadnoughts. Whereas admech and drukhari run a lot of troops. Orks in theory have boys (not many). Death guard have good targets as well.

In a non competetive setting many armies are not space marines.

Also, I would argue that the 15 points is not the bad thing, it is the 24 range. But at least space wolves want to be 24 within. Preferably closer so they can charge. If you just want it to sit pritty on objectives there are better options. Even the scout flyer if you want to use a transport on an objective.
Well here's the thing. The AC is just as good as the HB against Space Marines, but it's twice as good against Dreadnoughts, and markedly better against T5 (Gravis, Bikes, Immortals, Orks) and T6 (Raiders) and of course T3. Like you say the only downside is range.

If you think the AC is too expensive, I'd counter by reminding you that you're already paying points for the platform. I think spending a bunch of points on a platform but then giving it a less effective gun is kinda a waste.

I know the HB is supposedly all the rage, but in any situation where I have a choice, I'd swap it for something better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
I agree, you need to make use to all the vehicles' ability. But simply protecting the infantries from one turn of shooting can be a good deal. When I play my SW I only have tanks and TWC as valid targets turn one. The opponent must crack the transports in order to damage the infantries. A transport can work even if it doesn't move.
I fully agree with this. I've been using Transports to keep my troops more protected from the initial opponent barrage since about 5th ed. I'll also use them to block LOS to troops behind them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 22:24:17


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Bergen

Insectum7 I think maiby I am confusing you. I am arguing that the assault cannon is good on the razroback. Although it is not a blanket statement as there are options where the heavy bolter is better, it has longer range as is cheaper. I think you and I am in agrement and that we both do not think deerhunters argument about 15 points beeing overpriced is very good. Even though it is in fact 15 points more.

Yes, the assault cannon razorback is trash compared to the volkite redemptor, and that is because it is way undercosted. (If the twin heavy bolter is 15 points on the redemptor, and the volkite is better, perhaps it should cost 20 points or there about.)

When I state regular marines are tras compared to their primaris version I am talking about their troop choise. I would have thought this is obvius from the context as I am saying Blood Claws and Grey Hunters are good compared to their primaris equilant.. Bladeguard veterans and jump vanguard marines have very different roles, as one of them has 12" move, I would think you would understand this out from our conversation. But when you compare the Tactical Squad to the Interscessor squad the tactical squad is utterly trash. If you compare assault marines without jump packs with assault interscessors it becomes even worse as you do not fill your mandatory troops and you loose objective secure. Blod claws and grey hunters however are very comperable to both of them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 23:06:59


   
 
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