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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






So, for those not in the know, Age of Sigmar has a concept somewhat similar to stratagems called Command Abilities. They work a bit differently:
Spoiler:

1) you get 2-4CP per turn depending on a few factors, and if you dont use it in the battle round, you lose it.

2) universal command abilities are generically more useful than the universal abilities in 40k. The equivalent to Overwatch is "shoot with -1 to hit". Instead of a 1-die reroll, you have a flat "+1 to saves" and "+1 to hit" for the phase.

3) no stacking. A unit can only send or receive one command per turn. You can stack a couple of the special ones if theyre like an aura ability stacked with a targeted ability on a unit that is receiving an aura as well, but far more limited.

4) usually, instead of having flat auras, "Commander" type characters instead have a special command ability, and this is often the ONLY way to get faction-specific command abilities. No strat list in your codex. Typically if the character is on foot, he gets a thing that helps footsloggers, if a character is mounted, he gets an ability to help mounted units. Often, unique command abilities take the form of temporary auras, but not always.

5) units tend to have more "once per game" abilities printed on their datasheets, rather than the "this specific unit does a special thing" stratagems you see in 40k. That way, the unit's capabilties are just...part of its power budget and not tied to a central game-wide resource.

6) they all cost 1 command point. No super-powerful 2-3-4CP command abilities, as far as i know of.


So, here's the exercise:

Pretend tomorrow, GW decides "No more stratagems". If youre a commander-type character, you lose your passive reroll whatever aura, and you instead gain a unique Command ability (that might be a stratagem the faction currently has) and if youre a unit, you might gain a unique once-per-game ability that used to be a stratagem.

Let's use Drukhari as an example:

-The Haemonculus loses his +1 Toughness aura, and instead gains The Butcher's Craft stratagem, targeting one unit wholly within 12" of him.

-the Archon loses his RR1s to hit aura, and instead as the orchestrator of the realspace raid gains the "Cruel Deception" and "Never Still" stratagems as a combo ability - select one unit wholly within 12", if it made a Fall Back move in the movement phase it can either shoot or charge, if it made a Normal Move or Advanced it may make another Normal Move up to 7" but cannot Charge.

-The Succubus loses her RR1s to wound aura, and instead gains Lightning Reactions as a command ability for one unit within 18"

-the Venom gains Screaming Jets as a once per game ability

-Reaver Jetbikes gain Eviscerating Flyby as a once per game ability

-Cronos Pain Engines gain Pain Syphon as a once per game ability

What does your faction look like?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





( I'm not opposing this idea. Just giving my verbal diarrhea. )

I think in some cases this would amplify the use of abilities. I often don't use Warpflame Gargoyles, because I have so much more to spend CP on.

At the same time it would kill the idea of 10 Scarabs, because my opponent can just bait the use of the ability and then hammer them the next turn. Rubrics will probably get the +1 damage staff thing or maybe bodyguard or heroic intervene.

I presume Exalteds would lose their reroll and get something like Ignore Perils, but then does every Exalted get to use that each turn? Maybe the Infernal Master gets Inescapable Forewarning, but then my opponent can more easily dodge the ability knowing where it will come from. Ahriman could be cast another.

I would probably lose the ability to deepstrike and infiltrate ( among others ) as I can't see a character or specific unit providing those in a way that is useful and doesn't break list building.

Ahriman - Cast Again
Exalted - Ignore Perils
Sorcerer - 3 MW Smite
Daemon Prince - Trade Spell
Infernal Master - Forewarning
Terminator Sorcerer - +1 shot to Bolters
Magnus - +1 to Wound

Tzaangor - Reroll hits
Rubrics - Soulreaper
Scarabs - Minus 1 Damage
Rhinos - Gargoyles
Helbrute - Increase AP by 1
Shaman - D3+1 Staff
Enlightened - Reroll hits
Predator / Vindicator - Smoke
Landraider - Top Profile
Mutalith - Heal
Heldrake - Vector
Mauler/Forgefiend - Mortal Shrug
Spawn - Mutation




This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/30 16:33:39


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Personally, I was not operating off the assumption that ALL stratagems would end up making the cut to either once per games or command abilities. There are too many. By at least a factor of 2 or 3. Its a major problem with the game.

Some stratagems - especially on units that arent particuarly great right now, like Land Raiders with POTMS - would get made into once per games. But others, like rubrics just...being able to make their soulreaper cannons reap souls more at will for some reason, would just be gone. Typically basic troops in sigmar don't OFTEN have access to these once per games. Some do, but others do not.

Each command ability can only be used once per phase, so while each exalted maybe has the ability to ignore perils, only one could in any given turn.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






Strats are without a doubt too prevelent in 40k and need to be changed, but it wont happen till 10th.

I'd love it though.


Custodes actually having the benefit of the stats they pay points for being useful the whole game and not relying on CP just to hang on or make a move would be soooo nice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 17:27:14


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I would be less drastic.

Keep current stratagems.
Stratagems are all once per game.
You get CPs per turn instead of having them at the start of the game. Each turn you get 1/4 of your CP total +1.Contrarily to AoS, unspent CPs carry over to the next turn.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
Personally, I was not operating off the assumption that ALL stratagems would end up making the cut to either once per games or command abilities. There are too many. By at least a factor of 2 or 3. Its a major problem with the game.

Some stratagems - especially on units that arent particuarly great right now, like Land Raiders with POTMS - would get made into once per games. But others, like rubrics just...being able to make their soulreaper cannons reap souls more at will for some reason, would just be gone. Typically basic troops in sigmar don't OFTEN have access to these once per games. Some do, but others do not.

Each command ability can only be used once per phase, so while each exalted maybe has the ability to ignore perils, only one could in any given turn.


It's an interesting thought. It definitely changes the value of some units and configurations. Like for the case of Scarabs - if they were the only unit with -1D then you'd see people use only 5 man blobs and Rubrics would probably be dead.

-1D could be something that stays a strat and then Rubrics get Soulreap and Scarabs get the extra bolter shot, I guess.

There's a very fine line to walk.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 18:10:34


 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






I think the AoS method would make things more engaging from a decision making standpoint, beyond just balance benefits. Having a resource that you have more limited access to, both from the amount of Stratagems you can use by limiting the number that's used per phase and what can benefit from it, and the game of using up your gained CP throughout the battle-round without going dry too fast or ending up with wasted leftovers. I think that makes for more interesting decisions.

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 Thadin wrote:
I think the AoS method would make things more engaging from a decision making standpoint, beyond just balance benefits. Having a resource that you have more limited access to, both from the amount of Stratagems you can use by limiting the number that's used per phase and what can benefit from it, and the game of using up your gained CP throughout the battle-round without going dry too fast or ending up with wasted leftovers. I think that makes for more interesting decisions.


Not sure I agree. You're placing more decisions in the list building phase and restricting what you can do from there. There would be incredibly limited resource management decisions on the remaining strats and your decisions on use of abilities will come down to whether or not you meet conditions to make it worthwhile.
   
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Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






I get that from a certain point, that limited use-cases of stratagems does make it more obvious when something should be used and makes it less of a decision. But my preference lies towards getting your command points for the battleround, between 3 and 5, depending on certain things in your list, as opposed to starting with the bulk of your points right away. Having a starting pool for the whole game seems to me like it's pushing the player to using everything up as soon as possible, trigger all your devastating stratagems and alpha strike hard.

This unit recieves every damn buff under the sun and quadruples it's damage output
vs
This unit can only receive one Command Ability buff this phase. What does it get?

The AoS method is by no means perfect, I just think that the limited resources per battle round is better.

And there are exceptions to the rule, regarding AoS' current balance issues regarding gods and hero-monsters making for an unfun meta, and all the buffs they get...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 18:55:14


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Springfield, VA

Do you think the AOS counterplay for characters (being able to shoot them at a -1) is part of what makes its system balanced, and that a similar system for the untargetable (mostly) characters in 40k would be less awesome therefore?

I'm just curious, I don't really know. My 3rd Edition AOS games have been much fewer than I would like.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






I would prefer if AoS drew the Character targeting rules from 40k for the most part.

The Hero-killer shooting attacks don't give a gak about a measely -1 to hit. Kruleboyz sniping from across the board, giving between 7 and 13 shots that do 2-3 mortal wounds on a roll of a 5-6, or Lumineth Archers firing 20-40 arrows doing a mortal wound on a 5-6... a hit modifier doesn't matter there. Small heroes will die. Unkillable god hero-monsters still unkillable.

40k's character targeting system is good for the game it is. It's a matter of hitting the internal codex balance for the heroes that should get Character protection and the ones that don't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 19:04:48


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I like the commanders bit, not a fan at all of lots of non-character units having "once per game" abilities though.

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Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






It tends to be pretty rare in AoS, that your non-hero units have those surprise one-a-game abilities. Some armies make more use of them than others, like Lumineth and Kharadron Overlords. I wouldn't say one-a-game abilities on non-heroes is really indicative of AoS as a whole.

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The dark behind the eyes.

Just to say, I think this would be a great improvement to the game.

Also, the idea of most units having once-per-game abilities, similar to the 'mini-feats' of some warmachine units is a really interesting idea. I think it's a nice compromise in place of stratagems.

As to your suggestions for DE Command Abilities, I'll offer a suggestion of Never Stationary for the Archon, in place of Cruel Deception. Otherwise, I quite like your choices for DE.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Thadin wrote:
I get that from a certain point, that limited use-cases of stratagems does make it more obvious when something should be used and makes it less of a decision. But my preference lies towards getting your command points for the battleround, between 3 and 5, depending on certain things in your list, as opposed to starting with the bulk of your points right away. Having a starting pool for the whole game seems to me like it's pushing the player to using everything up as soon as possible, trigger all your devastating stratagems and alpha strike hard.

This unit recieves every damn buff under the sun and quadruples it's damage output
vs
This unit can only receive one Command Ability buff this phase. What does it get?

The AoS method is by no means perfect, I just think that the limited resources per battle round is better.

And there are exceptions to the rule, regarding AoS' current balance issues regarding gods and hero-monsters making for an unfun meta, and all the buffs they get...


Certainly. I think a "realistic" limitation we could see is only allowing one strat, one blessing per, and one prayer unit per phase so you don't get the stacking as much - "rule of 1" as it were.
   
Made in us
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 Thadin wrote:
It tends to be pretty rare in AoS, that your non-hero units have those surprise one-a-game abilities. Some armies make more use of them than others, like Lumineth and Kharadron Overlords. I wouldn't say one-a-game abilities on non-heroes is really indicative of AoS as a whole.


I dunno, I guess it depends on the army, I guess as a person who went from 40k to AOS I noticed that some abilities i had were kind of similar to strats but were either more once-per-games or abilities that go off on an unusual roll or something. Like my big turtle for my idoneth has one Jaws attack that if it wounds on a 6 does a bunch of MWs, or my gobbos have some characters that can eat a crazy mushroom once per game to get some temporary boost, or my eels can zap people once per game. But admittedly, I've only had any experience at all with like 10 different factions in total, so I dont know what everyone else does, it just seemed like those kinds of cute little thematic abilities that are represented by stratagems in 40k just tend to be either always-on abilities or once per game abiltiies in AOS.

Like I'd bet if AOS was structured like 40k, my Troggoth's ability that lets him try to squish one enemy model before combat starts (which adds a little bit of a fun extra capability to him, since he can squish unit leaders or special banner guys if he wants) would probably be a 1cp stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vipoid wrote:
Just to say, I think this would be a great improvement to the game.

Also, the idea of most units having once-per-game abilities, similar to the 'mini-feats' of some warmachine units is a really interesting idea. I think it's a nice compromise in place of stratagems.

As to your suggestions for DE Command Abilities, I'll offer a suggestion of Never Stationary for the Archon, in place of Cruel Deception. Otherwise, I quite like your choices for DE.


I actually suggested a split ability that could be either. Basically, if a unit fell back, you get to use Cruel Deception, if it didnt, you get to use Never Stationary.

Make the archon sort of the 'orchestrator' with the movement abilities, succubus with dodging, and haemonculus with butchering stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 20:08:00


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

If nothing else, I think it would be far more helpful to have a single, once-per-game ability listed in a unit's entry than have ~30 stratagems, listed in an entirely different section, capable of giving it all manner of different buffs.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Thadin wrote:
I think the AoS method would make things more engaging from a decision making standpoint, beyond just balance benefits. Having a resource that you have more limited access to, both from the amount of Stratagems you can use by limiting the number that's used per phase and what can benefit from it, and the game of using up your gained CP throughout the battle-round without going dry too fast or ending up with wasted leftovers. I think that makes for more interesting decisions.


Not sure I agree. You're placing more decisions in the list building phase and restricting what you can do from there. There would be incredibly limited resource management decisions on the remaining strats and your decisions on use of abilities will come down to whether or not you meet conditions to make it worthwhile.


...except that in practice most competitive 40k lists basically account for 8-10 of their 12 CP in the list building stage anyway.

"hmmm maybe I wont use the 4cp combo to quadruple the damage of my bomb unit this game, oh, no actually I think I will. Like I do every game."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vipoid wrote:
If nothing else, I think it would be far more helpful to have a single, once-per-game ability listed in a unit's entry than have ~30 stratagems, listed in an entirely different section, capable of giving it all manner of different buffs.


Or even just...an ability. That they can use. And is accounted for in their points cost.

A wild concept, using points to balance the capabilities of units in the game. Remember when we used to do that? I don't, i'm just over here multiplying the damage output of all my HQs by 6 by dropping the obvious relic+warlord trait combo on them that everyone takes every game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Personally, I was not operating off the assumption that ALL stratagems would end up making the cut to either once per games or command abilities. There are too many. By at least a factor of 2 or 3. Its a major problem with the game.

Some stratagems - especially on units that arent particuarly great right now, like Land Raiders with POTMS - would get made into once per games. But others, like rubrics just...being able to make their soulreaper cannons reap souls more at will for some reason, would just be gone. Typically basic troops in sigmar don't OFTEN have access to these once per games. Some do, but others do not.

Each command ability can only be used once per phase, so while each exalted maybe has the ability to ignore perils, only one could in any given turn.


It's an interesting thought. It definitely changes the value of some units and configurations. Like for the case of Scarabs - if they were the only unit with -1D then you'd see people use only 5 man blobs and Rubrics would probably be dead.

-1D could be something that stays a strat and then Rubrics get Soulreap and Scarabs get the extra bolter shot, I guess.

There's a very fine line to walk.



if the capability to counter the thing that's intended to be the counter to rubrics is truly critical to their functionality as a unit, then it can be put in as a command ability to what you intend to be a lynchpin HQ. I think, personally, that would be a fantastic way to give the exalted sorceror on foot some play, as opposed to making the disc sorc always the best for obvious reasons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/30 20:12:09


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 vipoid wrote:
If nothing else, I think it would be far more helpful to have a single, once-per-game ability listed in a unit's entry than have ~30 stratagems, listed in an entirely different section, capable of giving it all manner of different buffs.

The simple problem is that a lot of things that were special rules for units got dumped into stratagems and they seem to be hesitant to put them back or they are things that would be special rules for units in AoS.

To throw an example out there from my AdMech book?
Dunestriders is a 1CP Stratagem. When Skitarii were first introduced? It was a native rule on Sicarian and the Ironstriders(Ballistarii and Dragoons). 8E dropped and it got switched to a Stratagem that only affected Ironstriders.

As another example, in AoS? The stratagem "Tactica Obliqua" for Serberys Raiders would likely just flatout be a rule on the Raiders.


I'm all for 10th just rolling a lot of these stratagems into unit rules.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 20:57:22


 
   
Made in de
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I'm all on board with this. There are too many stratagems, they waste both paper and game time when people are trying to find the right one they were looking for.

IMO there is room for stratagems that allow you to react to your opponent that allow you react to your opponent's actions. However, I'm not sure whether those need to be faction specific - for example "lightning fast reactions" could be replaced with a more generic "evasive maneuvers" that anyone could use, but eldar pay less to do so.

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 Jidmah wrote:
I'm all on board with this. There are too many stratagems, they waste both paper and game time when people are trying to find the right one they were looking for.


I created my own set of strat cards and I colour coded them based on how likely I am to use them. I usually shuffle through my deck while my opponent is deploying and select about ten or so that I might use during the game (fewer when I'm playing a small game- which I play way more often than 2k games), and the rest don't get looked at again.

In reality, I think that every player goes through a process somewhat like this- even if they don't create actual cards. We all know which 5 or 10 we use most, we forget that the others exist. Given that, I think all the sturm and drang about how many are in the book is somewhat irrelevant once you've played five or so games.

 Jidmah wrote:

IMO there is room for stratagems that allow you to react to your opponent that allow you react to your opponent's actions. However, I'm not sure whether those need to be faction specific - for example "lightning fast reactions" could be replaced with a more generic "evasive maneuvers" that anyone could use, but eldar pay less to do so.


So if Eldar pay less, would it still appear in the strat section of the Eldar book? If not, it becomes harder to generate that deck of strats, and if so, while I don't object to giving it a generic name that is also attached to similar rules in the strat section of other dexes, why bother?

I did really like this piece that you wrote in another thread:

 Jidmah wrote:

If a stratagem works for just one unit, that's not a stratagem. That's an ability activated with CP.
If a stratagem requires you to buy specific wargear, that's not a stratagem, that's wargear activated with CP.
If a stratagem upgrades a unit, that's not a stratagem, that's a unit upgrade paid for with CP.


This totally makes sense to me, but again, I think it's actually easier to track when they're all just strats, because then I can use my home made customized deck. I print up my own unit cards too, and they include ALL the info I need for the unit, but if everything that I need to use CP to activate is in my strat deck (which again is almost always ten or fewer cards) that's easier than - Oh, this CP activity ability is on that unit's card, this CP activated equipment is on this other unit's card, this upgrade is on another unit's card, and then I've got this somewhat smaller handful of other strat cards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 17:43:41


 
   
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I don't know if this would work or not .... but see how this sounds:

Stratagems are "purchased" using available CP's as part of list construction. Whatever stratagems you buy are public information and are part of your list.

During play, you get a number of CP's per battle round, which you can use to activate stratagems. Each stratagem can only be used once per battle round.

If CP gain per round is low (i.e. 1 or 2) then the system could allow CP's to carry over between rounds. If players get instead, say, 3 or 4 CP's per turn, they don't carry over. Use it or lose it.

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I could see that being an interesting way to handle things, and I only disagree with one part right off the bat.

I would prefer that you purchase stratagems, in their current form and writing, once you know your opponent's army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 18:21:43


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 Thadin wrote:
I could see that being an interesting way to handle things, and I only disagree with one part right off the bat.

I would prefer that you purchase stratagems, in their current form and writing, once you know your opponent's army.


Basically, make CP selection part of the setup process. I like that adjustment just fine. Players check out their opponent's list, and then spend a few minutes selecting CPs.

I do think there could be room in this system to keep some of the generic (core) stratagems from the BRB available to everyone automatically.

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I'd rather have many of the other ideas honestly.

Idea 1) you have to pick 10 stratagems to put on your roster and you can only use those during game (excluding pre-game ones that is) now there is no gotcha's bc you know what ones are going to be used and you can make more tactical choices within all the 100's "What ifs?" You use them like normal, just only from this list (and the core rules ones)

Idea 2) You spend all your CP pre game on stratagems you want and you can use those stratagems, the CP you get per turn is used for the Core stratagems, whatever CP you not spend pre-game you can also use those for Core stratagems.

EDIT: Made more clear.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/02 19:55:15


   
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PenitentJake wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

IMO there is room for stratagems that allow you to react to your opponent that allow you react to your opponent's actions. However, I'm not sure whether those need to be faction specific - for example "lightning fast reactions" could be replaced with a more generic "evasive maneuvers" that anyone could use, but eldar pay less to do so.


So if Eldar pay less, would it still appear in the strat section of the Eldar book? If not, it becomes harder to generate that deck of strats, and if so, while I don't object to giving it a generic name that is also attached to similar rules in the strat section of other dexes, why bother?

We already have rules akin to "stratagem XYZ costs 1 CP less/0 CP to use", you could just print that into the army rules. For example, blood axes have a warlord trait like that and DG have their orbital bombardment cost less if you bring a siege expert HQ.

I did really like this piece that you wrote in another thread:

 Jidmah wrote:

If a stratagem works for just one unit, that's not a stratagem. That's an ability activated with CP.
If a stratagem requires you to buy specific wargear, that's not a stratagem, that's wargear activated with CP.
If a stratagem upgrades a unit, that's not a stratagem, that's a unit upgrade paid for with CP.


This totally makes sense to me, but again, I think it's actually easier to track when they're all just strats, because then I can use my home made customized deck. I print up my own unit cards too, and they include ALL the info I need for the unit, but if everything that I need to use CP to activate is in my strat deck (which again is almost always ten or fewer cards) that's easier than - Oh, this CP activity ability is on that unit's card, this CP activated equipment is on this other unit's card, this upgrade is on another unit's card, and then I've got this somewhat smaller handful of other strat cards.

I disagree. Take smoke launchers, for example, one of the more controversial uses of stratagems. To use them or similar wargear stratagems you need to dig out the datasheet/list anyways and check for the keyword. Just change the rules for smoke launchers to read: "During the enemy shooting phase, when this unit is selected as a target of a shooting attack, you may spend 1 CP. If you do, enemy units attacking this model suffer a -1 to hit penalty."

It's similar for unit upgrades. You just write those on the roster and deduct costs, done. Kustom jobs, chapter masters and pathogens already work like that, the veteran intercessors were even turned into their own datasheet. It isn't really any different from characters giving a bonus to starting CP or LoW costing 1 CP either. And let's be real, you didn't print cards for extra relics and warlord traits either, did you? They are by far the most useless thing in the data card decks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mezmorki wrote:
I don't know if this would work or not .... but see how this sounds:

Stratagems are "purchased" using available CP's as part of list construction. Whatever stratagems you buy are public information and are part of your list.

During play, you get a number of CP's per battle round, which you can use to activate stratagems. Each stratagem can only be used once per battle round.

If CP gain per round is low (i.e. 1 or 2) then the system could allow CP's to carry over between rounds. If players get instead, say, 3 or 4 CP's per turn, they don't carry over. Use it or lose it.


IMO the problem isn't how stratagems are used. The issue is both total number of stratagems and what they do. Your approach would essentially just limit how many stratagems that shouldn't exist to begin with are used.

This is the full post that I wrote on stratagems:
 Jidmah wrote:
5) the number of stratagems is just too damn high. I think I'm rather infamous by now for my stance on whether the game is too complex or not, so that is clearly not the reason why I want to cut down on stratagems. My reason is that I think that the vast majority of stratagems add absolutely nothing to the game, simple as that. In all my games I always use the same few stratagems and so do my opponents, even when running vastly different archetypes. Which leads me to believe that when GW is designing stratagems, they are just throwing mud at a wall and hope enough of it sticks to make a good codex.
If a stratagem works for just one unit, that's not a stratagem. That's an ability activated with CP.
If a stratagem requires you to buy specific wargear, that's not a stratagem, that's wargear activated with CP.
If a stratagem upgrades a unit, that's not a stratagem, that's a unit upgrade paid for with CP.
If a stratagem does something very narrow that almost never matters or has a high chance of failing, it's wasted cardboard.
If a stratagem unconditionally increases damage... well, stop that. There is too much damage already.
Delete all those and suddenly you are left with a tiny pile of utility and reactive stratagems - which really is all there should be.


CP as a command resource for many things is working quite well in 9th edition codices, and frankly I believe that cutting down codices to just 10 stratagems following the above rules plus a maximum of one sub-faction stratagem would solve almost all their issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Idea 1) you have to pick 10 stratagems to put on your roster and you can only use those during game (excluding pre-game ones that is) now there is no gotcha's bc you know what ones are going to be used and you can make more tactical choices within all the 100's "What ifs?" You use them like normal, just only from this list (and the core rules ones)

At least for 9th edition codices, this is how the game already works. Might as well put it in writing so people stop being intimidated by the prospect of having to find out themselves which 10 stratagems are relevant for their opponent.

Idea 2) You spend all your CP pre game on stratagems you want and you can use those stratagems, the CP you get per turn is used for the Core stratagems, whatever CP you not spend pre-game you can also use those for Core stratagems.

The difference between points/PL and CP is that CP are a resource that you spend during the game depending on the situation. If you push that to the listbuilding phase, why not completely drop CP and have everything cost points?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/02 23:15:52


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I'd be all for it. Stratagems have totally killed any interest for me with 40k as there's just too much to keep up with. Dare I say the convoluted mess of 7th was an easier to play rule set due to the lack of stratagems and most special rules being easily accessed from the units datasheet.

I prefer AoS these days for this exact reason, the game just seems to flow better and there are less gotcha moments. I'd be all for dumping faction specific stratagems for universal ones in 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 00:08:38


 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Idea 2) You spend all your CP pre game on stratagems you want and you can use those stratagems, the CP you get per turn is used for the Core stratagems, whatever CP you not spend pre-game you can also use those for Core stratagems.

The difference between points/PL and CP is that CP are a resource that you spend during the game depending on the situation. If you push that to the listbuilding phase, why not completely drop CP and have everything cost points?


Complicated theoretical answers to this exist, but the basic answer is that even if it's all done during list-building it forces players to spend a set proportion of their resources on one thing and a set proportion of their resources on another rather than having to work out an exchange rate between armies that spent a different percentage of their points on models versus stratagems. For an example of the possible pitfalls look to the FFG Star Wars games; they've never been great at working out what the value of upgrades versus just taking more units is.

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I actually like the AOS command abilities and would approve of making the switch

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I would be happy. The only reason I don't own a full AoS army is everyone plays 40k. Also, not every unit gets a big once per game Ult in AoS, usually just the big splashy units
   
 
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