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Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Are squats just a meme or are there die hard squat fans that legitimately crave their return? I’m just curious. I’ve never seen a squat model in person before. I think the concept could be really cool though.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

macluvin wrote:
Are squats just a meme or are there die hard squat fans that legitimately crave their return? I’m just curious. I’ve never seen a squat model in person before. I think the concept could be really cool though.


Both?

They are a meme. Can’t really argue that point. But there are also living ancestors who await the return of their people. Probably not a lot of them with old lead kicking around, but some. More likely people fond of dwarves, who would like to see them in 40k.

I’ve a half dozen or so of the stunties myself, but even if they were rebooted, I’d probably pass on starting another army.

   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





Yes. I like Dwarfs. I like 40k. This is a good mix.

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Dakka Veteran




I'd buy them.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




It would honestly depend what they did with them

I don't have any but the original plastics and a mole mortar, but it would really depend.

If they did 'short Guardsmen, but with trikes and terminators' again, then no. But if they took a chance and did something a little more interesting than 'T4 army, but with lasguns and flak armor,' it could be compelling and functional.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 02:32:53


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Yes, we do.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:


If they did 'short Guardsmen, but with trikes and terminators' again, then no. But if they took a chance and did something a little more interesting than 'T4 army, but with lasguns and flak armor,' it could be compelling and functional.


I'm fine with new stuff & ideas - so long as I have options for my existing Squat stuff (trikes/bikes. Exo armor, short T4 Guardsmen, etc) as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/02 04:14:42


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





A huge yes.

Living ancestors could be AMAZING with a 9th rule set; their Crusade rules would rock.

Super-heavy land trains in plastic? Yes.

Bikes and trikes for days? Yes.

Kharadon Overlords are almost techy enough to fit on a 40k table and I love them. Actual squats would be amazing.
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





I like the idea of power armored dwarves so.. Yes. I loved those weird land trains they had.

Demiurges too for Tau.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 03:08:18


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






40k is missing dwarfs, many play AOS/Fantasy with dwarfs, only natural to want them in 40k. Me personally I don't like them but I know many that do.

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Repentia Mistress





Nah, got enough power armour armies. Don't need another one.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Eh. I don't have anything against squats, but I think it would be hard to reintroduce them neatly into 40k. They've just been too conspicuously absent for too long. It's already a little hard to swallow each time GW introduces a vehicle that "has totally been around this whole time, you guys." Doing that with an entire faction that is large and significant enough to participate in battles across the galaxy is an even bigger ask.

I feel like squats might work better in something closer to Necromunda's scale or even something like Battle Fleet Gothic. Say that they've been around the whole time, but they're so few in number that they really only fight en masse in one small, specific piece of the map or say that they're all dedicated shipwrights and voidsmen now, rarely seen outside of boarding actions.

Don't make me wonder where they've been in every Black Library novel and codex I've read since high school.

(Now something like exodites who get mentioned pretty regularly but don't have an army yet... There's a faction you could introduce without straining suspension of disbelief.)

Also, I'm not sure what design space you'd squeeze them into in 40k. T4 guardsmen could just be a regimental doctrine. Slightly more durability and better guns is going to look a lot like a mechanicus army (and my buddy with a squat army uses mechanicus rules.) If you lean into their exosuit thing, you're going to overlap with tau and with the sisters' exosuits.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Nah, got enough power armour armies. Don't need another one.


They weren't a power armor army. Most of the army had the same options as guardsmen. Flak armor, lasguns and a choice of the 'basic' heavy weapons (though the whole squad could carry heavy bolters if they wanted to pay for it)

The squat exo-armor was limited to 5 models total (warlord + exactly 4 bodyguard) per 'brotherhood' (minimum 3 squads + warlord and hearthguard, which came to about 750 points naked). Guildmasters could also have exo-armor, but had to bring along at least one bike squad for 555 points. Going big on armor wasn't an option for squats, they were just T4 guardsmen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 04:32:15


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




It's another millenium. And the imperium got ripped in half. There's all sorts of explanations from warp shenanigans to going into hiding in anticipation of the rift or whatever.
The design space though is a very very realistic concern.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Wyldhunt wrote:
Eh. I don't have anything against squats, but I think it would be hard to reintroduce them neatly into 40k. They've just been too conspicuously absent for too long. It's already a little hard to swallow each time GW introduces a vehicle that "has totally been around this whole time, you guys." Doing that with an entire faction that is large and significant enough to participate in battles across the galaxy is an even bigger ask.

I feel like squats might work better in something closer to Necromunda's scale or even something like Battle Fleet Gothic. Say that they've been around the whole time, but they're so few in number that they really only fight en masse in one small, specific piece of the map or say that they're all dedicated shipwrights and voidsmen now, rarely seen outside of boarding actions.

Don't make me wonder where they've been in every Black Library novel and codex I've read since high school.

(Now something like exodites who get mentioned pretty regularly but don't have an army yet... There's a faction you could introduce without straining suspension of disbelief.)

Also, I'm not sure what design space you'd squeeze them into in 40k. T4 guardsmen could just be a regimental doctrine. Slightly more durability and better guns is going to look a lot like a mechanicus army (and my buddy with a squat army uses mechanicus rules.) If you lean into their exosuit thing, you're going to overlap with tau and with the sisters' exosuits.


Stunted thinking like this was cited ages ago early in 3e by GW.
They said one of the reasons they dropped the faction was that they just didn't have any new/good ideas for them at the time.

As for how few of them there might be fighting out there? It's gotta be exponentially higher than the total # of Custodes encountered not on Terra.
So if Custodes are a valid force....
Besides, there's millions & millions of worlds in the Imperium. That's plenty of design space to play with. The faction doesn't have to have any grand universe wide presence. They could represent warring clans within just 1 solar system. Or they could be completely fictitious - a faction only seen in bad Imperiel action-movie holovids & comics. Or games with them could represent battles that took place sometime in the past. It doesn't matter. They just have to have great looking models & be fun to play.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:

Stunted thinking like this was cited ages ago early in 3e by GW.

"Stunted" feels a bit harsh. We're all having a friendly conversation here.


They said one of the reasons they dropped the faction was that they just didn't have any new/good ideas for them at the time.

I mean, do we collectively have any great ideas for them now? If GW releases them and people play them, I'll be glad people are having fun. But it also seems a bit of shame to spend release schedule space on them if they play just like guardsmen or mechanicus or firstborn or whomever.

As for how few of them there might be fighting out there? It's gotta be exponentially higher than the total # of Custodes encountered not on Terra.
So if Custodes are a valid force....

I mean.
A.) To me, custodes are honestly kind of pushing it.
B.) While custodes weren't out and about in the galaxy (much), the lore made it pretty clear that they at least existed and were hanging out on Terra. Whereas I'm not sure we've seen someone drop the term "squats" in any novels or codices from this century. The term certainly doesn't seem to show up as often as other abhuman terms like "ogryn" or "ratling." Are squats ever existing even canon at the moment?


Besides, there's millions & millions of worlds in the Imperium. That's plenty of design space to play with. The faction doesn't have to have any grand universe wide presence. They could represent warring clans within just 1 solar system. Or they could be completely fictitious - a faction only seen in bad Imperiel action-movie holovids & comics. Or games with them could represent battles that took place sometime in the past. It doesn't matter. They just have to have great looking models & be fun to play.

Ultimately, I'm all for doing whatever you and your friends will enjoy. I've certainly never complained about facing my buddy's squat army and their sometimes-fan-made rules. But also, it was kind of a pain to explain why the tau were present in a given campaign prior to the 4th and 5th spheres of expansion. Like, sure Space Wolves travel around a fair bit, but they'd have to be a long way from Fenris to be anywhere near the tau empire. And after the 27th hivefleet 50th necron dynasty, 18th Waaagh, and 12th separate craftworld have invaded your single solar system that also regularly gets threatened by drukhari raids genestealer uprisings, and daemonic incursions, you have to really stretch that suspension of disbelief. What are these space dwarves doing that has their tiny piece of territory surviving all these attacks while maintaining enough infrastructure to keep pumping out war machines and troops?

As with tau, lacking a feasible means of being present across the galaxy can make it difficult to involve them in the setting to the same degree as other GW-official factions. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to be considered that a faction might not be viable if you have to canonically make them holovid characters to justify their existence. If GW released squats as a faction and used one of the fluff explanations you've given as examples, I would congratulate you for having your wishes granted and happily play against your space dwarves. But I might also groan every time I have to write them into a campaign.
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




That period of groaning too shall pass as did the awkward phase without the squats.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




I think when GW gets around to bring them back they won't look anything like the old squats. GW would try to differentiate them from Guard, Marines and Sisters and also to make it hard to use any of the many third party miniatures for them that popped up recently.
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard





washington state USA

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I think when GW gets around to bring them back they won't look anything like the old squats. GW would try to differentiate them from Guard, Marines and Sisters and also to make it hard to use any of the many third party miniatures for them that popped up recently.


Dwarves have been a staple of nearly every fantasy setting since Tolkien made them iconic.

I am sure they would sell in 40K again if GW could figure out a way to make them work like they did with the AOS version kharadron overlords

We had them in fantasy, and mantic still has them for kings of war as well as their version of the 40K squats in the forge fathers line.

As a side note, even though they have not come out and said they are related to the squats- the Demiurg in BFG are effectively space fairing dwarven miners who work with the tau (and they have really cool ships).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 06:42:24




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Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

The first time I ever called a stranger as a kid was to order some squats from GW mail order. They were OOP even then but I got 3 squat bikers and used fantasy dwarves to make the rest of my army. I was a huge fan as a kid.

Still am, but now I prefer the Demiurg concept over the squat one. I just think they work better as aliens than little humans, which would mean a visual redesign.

I am using mantic forgefathers with closed helmets to make my own demiurg force for Grimdark Future, and there are lots of options for more traditional squats if you prefer that. You can play them in Warpath or Grimdark Future or proxy them in gw games. I think it's already the best time to be a sci fi dwarf wnthusiast since the 80s, and I dunno that we need GW to do anything much to support that.

   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Considering how godawful the current GW dwarves are then no, let squats rest in piece wherever they are .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 10:20:07


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

ccs wrote:
As for how few of them there might be fighting out there? It's gotta be exponentially higher than the total # of Custodes encountered not on Terra.
So if Custodes are a valid force....

Wyldhunt wrote:
I mean.
A.) To me, custodes are honestly kind of pushing it.
B.) While custodes weren't out and about in the galaxy (much), the lore made it pretty clear that they at least existed and were hanging out on Terra. Whereas I'm not sure we've seen someone drop the term "squats" in any novels or codices from this century. The term certainly doesn't seem to show up as often as other abhuman terms like "ogryn" or "ratling." Are squats ever existing even canon at the moment?


Yes, they get mentioned from time to time. Think the most recent was something in one of the PA books. And there's a playable Squat or two in Necromunda.



Wyldhunt wrote:
I've certainly never complained about facing my buddy's squat army and their sometimes-fan-made rules. But also, it was kind of a pain to explain why the tau were present in a given campaign prior to the 4th and 5th spheres of expansion. Like, sure Space Wolves travel around a fair bit, but they'd have to be a long way from Fenris to be anywhere near the tau empire. And after the 27th hivefleet 50th necron dynasty, 18th Waaagh, and 12th separate craftworld have invaded your single solar system that also regularly gets threatened by drukhari raids genestealer uprisings, and daemonic incursions, you have to really stretch that suspension of disbelief. What are these space dwarves doing that has their tiny piece of territory surviving all these attacks while maintaining enough infrastructure to keep pumping out war machines and troops?

As with tau, lacking a feasible means of being present across the galaxy can make it difficult to involve them in the setting to the same degree as other GW-official factions. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to be considered that a faction might not be viable if you have to canonically make them holovid characters to justify their existence. If GW released squats as a faction and used one of the fluff explanations you've given as examples, I would congratulate you for having your wishes granted and happily play against your space dwarves. But I might also groan every time I have to write them into a campaign.


My point was that as long as the faction is fun to play (mechanically) and has great looking models, they could pick just about anything lore wise & go with it. 40k is already chock full of crap lore. A little bit more won't hurt it.

But OK, so you thought Holovid Squats are a step too silly.
How about we just steal a concept from AoS? In the Seraphron army, one of their factions is the Coalesced. The Slann literally form their lizardmen armies out of their memories of what was.
Well, Squats have powerful psykers known as Living Ancestors. And dwarves have very long lifespans, very long memories, & hold grudges that are almost genetic. So what if most (or maybe all) of the squats in a mass battle weren't real?
The living ancestor summons what was (or in the case of new stuff, what he wishes they'd had) to do battle for him. Hell, we might as well steal some astral projection force image shenanigans from Luke Skywalker in SW:VIII - that way the ancestor might not even be physically present.
Much easier for 1 old Squat, or a small band, to travel about the galaxy & just conjure up what's needed than haul an army along.

But truthfully? I don't care what the lore is. Or if it even if there is lore. I just want to put my army back on the table, in the current edition, as what they are instead of a Counts-As-(Guard) {most of my stuff is Guard equivalent).

Edit: (CCS): Man, what went wrong with that set of quotes....

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/02 08:30:34


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I guess if you find a niche between guard, sisters, admech, GSC and marines, why not?

There are things in more urgent need of attention that squats though, R&H and corsairs come to mind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 08:26:46


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Battleship Captain





Why do they need a niche? GW stopped worrying about faction identity beyond aesthetics ages ago. Just slap a bunch of army wide rules that add -/+1 to a different stat every turn and yoy're good to go.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 08:48:43



 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I'm... not sure.

On one hand, the not-Squats are one of the few things Mantic has done that I quite like, so I'd be interested to see how GW could do "proper" Squats.

I also think their work with the Skydorfs in AoS is pretty cool, even if I don't like the flying boats (a bit too chibi for me). The infantry are great. The less said about their updated Slayers, the Fyrslyrys, the better...

So I think there's a really interesting basis for Squats reemerging in the post-rift 40k galaxy. Even have the Indomitus Crusade find their way to the fallen Squat Homeworlds, so there's some semblance of the old allegiances, but they're still not the Imperium whilst at the same time not being Xenos either.

And I think the potential for interactions/integration with the Cult Mechanicus is fascinating, and some Squats reconnect with Mars, whereas others wish to keep their technology to themselves and their isolationist/survivalist ways.

But really I'd trade it all for a 40k scale plastic Thunderhawk.

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Made in gb
Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait





So I am a massive dwarf player in most games.

Hell I own a dwarf army in basically every GW system (MESBG, WHFB and AoS) but I honestly wouldn't want them back in 40k as a stand alone army. Sure as a new auxiliary choice for IG or something that'd be cool but 40k has enough issues with CURRENT factions before bringing in another.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





macluvin wrote:
Are squats just a meme or are there die hard squat fans that legitimately crave their return? I’m just curious. I’ve never seen a squat model in person before. I think the concept could be really cool though.


You should have made this a poll if you wanted to know...


But yes. Space orks and elves got decades of development and nuancing to get where they are now, it's trivial for space dwarfs to get the same...

   
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

I re-started 40k a while ago, starting with Imperial Guard, and jumping straight onto Ad Mech when they were added in 6th (?). This was mainly because of Squats when I played RT, way back.
When I was dragged into playing AoS, I only did it for the Kaharadron Overlords.
I've grabbed the Necromunda Squat Hired Gun when it appeared, with no expectation of using it with my Necromunda gang.

So, I would be all over new-Squats if they happened.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 09:10:08


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Bergen

My biggest experience with squats are looking at pictures. I also around 1996 read a fan made squat codex that focused on having loads of tanks. Like Tokyo tank police the anime. They had a small tank there called bonapart. I enjoyed that.

2021... Or 2022 rather. I have no idea what flavor to give them. What culturally distinguish them in the setting? The Eldar are quite established. Would they just be imperial guards with shorter models? How would they game mechanics be? Would they even be dwarfs? A lot of this needs good awnsers if they are to be implemented into the setting. I already have more armies then I play. I would not play them.

   
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 Sim-Life wrote:
Why do they need a niche? GW stopped worrying about faction identity beyond aesthetics ages ago. Just slap a bunch of army wide rules that add -/+1 to a different stat every turn and yoy're good to go.

I feel like armies lacking unique playstyles is a solvable problem, but each faction we throw into the mix makes it that much harder to solve. Especially if that faction has a lot of overlap with others.


My point was that as long as the faction is fun to play (mechanically) and has great looking models, they could pick just about anything lore wise & go with it. 40k is already chock full of crap lore. A little bit more won't hurt it.

...

But truthfully? I don't care what the lore is. Or if it even if there is lore. I just want to put my army back on the table, in the current edition, as what they are instead of a Counts-As-(Guard) {most of my stuff is Guard equivalent).

Hey, I fully support you rocking your space dwarves in whatever fashion brings you and your opponents a good time. But also, each faction that gets full faction support takes a share of GW's production budget and release schedule slots. So if squats struggle to make the lore better because they have to bend over backwards to justify their inclusion (see: primaris marines), and if they struggle to make the game itself better because of excessive overlap with existing factions, then I'm not sure adding them back in is a good idea. Selfishly, I'd probably prefer that people in your situation use counts-as rules or fandex rules and not eat up some of the aforementioned budget. ^_^;


But OK, so you thought Holovid Squats are a step too silly.
How about we just steal a concept from AoS? In the Seraphron army, one of their factions is the Coalesced. The Slann literally form their lizardmen armies out of their memories of what was.
Well, Squats have powerful psykers known as Living Ancestors. And dwarves have very long lifespans, very long memories, & hold grudges that are almost genetic. So what if most (or maybe all) of the squats in a mass battle weren't real?
The living ancestor summons what was (or in the case of new stuff, what he wishes they'd had) to do battle for him. Hell, we might as well steal some astral projection force image shenanigans from Luke Skywalker in SW:VIII - that way the ancestor might not even be physically present.
Much easier for 1 old Squat, or a small band, to travel about the galaxy & just conjure up what's needed than haul an army along.

I mean, I don't really want to yuck your yum. I feel like one abhuman psyker summoning an entire army big enough to participate on the usual 40k scale has some significant implications for the setting as well as some thematic overlap with things like warp ghosts, but sure. You could do that or any number of other things. The tricky part is explaining why, if they have the ability to participate on a galactic stage, they seemingly haven't done so for quite some time.

Custodes were babysitting, necrons were sleeping, and the tau were playing catch-up to get big and advanced enough to play with the big kids. But why haven't the squats been around? I'm certain it's possible to come up with a perfectly good explanation; I'm just not confident that we'd get something good instead of another awkward fit like primaris and their lore. So while I'd welcome a well-executed squats reintroduction, I also hope no one at GW is in the mood to try.
   
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Wyldhunt wrote:
(Now something like exodites who get mentioned pretty regularly but don't have an army yet... There's a faction you could introduce without straining suspension of disbelief.)

[Tongue in cheek]So the Eldar player doesn't want Dwarves in Space, but wants Elves Riding Dinosaurs in Space instead? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you...[/Tongue in cheek]

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
 
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