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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

In cases where the target has, say, 12 models, should the Leman Russ's blast shots be done simultaneously or one at a time?

I have seen lots of batreps where people roll 2d6 for a Russ's shooting (as if it was a 2d6 blast weapon). They also sometimes say "blast" and get the full 12. However, does it really work that way?

A Leman Russ's first shot into a 12 model unit will be a flat 6 because of blast, but that shot is resolved fully before the second shot (right? I could be wrong here).

This could result in the 12 model unit going down to 10 or fewer, and the second Russ shot would have to roll a d6 as it is only minimum 3.

Is that more correct than just treating it like 1 2d6 blast weapon?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




It depends on the exact wording of the rule. If it says something like "...this model may fire twice" I think it'd count the initial size of the unit for both shots. If it says something like "you may fire this unit again" you'd need to take the unit size each time you fire.

Basically, the question boils down to whether the LR gets to resolve 2 distinct sets of shots or just fires more times when it's chosen to shoot.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






The rule allows you to fire your main weapon twice, which means it goes into normal target allocation/resolution rules.

You declare which shots you're making before you resolve any of them, so rolling 2d6 or applying blast to both firings of the weapon is the way to play it. (think of it as if the Leman Russ was equipped with 2 battle cannons, as rules-wise that is effectively what happens)

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

The wording in the app datasheet is: "...it can shoot its turret weapon twice" at the same target.
It is 2x blast shots, at the same time. Count both shots as if no casualties have been taken. You have not moved on to the next weapon yet, so the number of models has not changed.

It appears as though it can be fast-rolled, just as Rihgu says, and Slipspace's first scenario.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 16:36:09


6000 pts - 4000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 1000 ptsDS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Ok, so it essentially is the same as a regular 2d6 blast weapon (the shots are simultaneous, not sequential)
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Keep in mind that grinding advance is still from 8th edition. In 9th edition rules like that are worded differently, its not shoot twice, its shoot again. The wording will probably be changed in the new AM codex. I would play it like shoot again. If you kill enough models with the first shot you will not have the maximum number of shots for blast, when the LR shoots the second time.

SHOOT AGAIN
Some rules allow units (or sometimes models or weapons) to shoot again in the Shooting phase, or shoot ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to shoot at the time when that rule is used.

When a unit shoots again, any models in that unit that have already shot with any of the weapons they are equipped with earlier in that phase can shoot with those weapons one additional time. When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot with earlier in that phase one additional time. When a model can shoot with a specific weapon again, that model can shoot with it one additional time if it has already shot with it earlier in that phase.

If a rule allows a unit, model or weapon to shoot again, then it must completely resolve its first shooting attack before resolving the second. This can be at a different target. If a rule is used to make a unit shoot again at the end of the Shooting phase, the phase does not end until after all these rules have been resolved..

   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






I would recommend to play it by the actual rules, instead of speculation on what the rules might be.

This sub-forum deals in RAW.

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Rihgu wrote:
I would recommend to play it by the actual rules, instead of speculation on what the rules might be.

This sub-forum deals in RAW.


Alright, if you want to go the RAW route, there is no rules basis for a unit shooting twice in 9th. Only shoot again. Since grinding advance doesnt say shoot again, it says shoot twice, you cant use the rule.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 p5freak wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
I would recommend to play it by the actual rules, instead of speculation on what the rules might be.

This sub-forum deals in RAW.


Alright, if you want to go the RAW route, there is no rules basis for a unit shooting twice in 9th. Only shoot again. Since grinding advance doesnt say shoot again, it says shoot twice, you cant use the rule.
Please define every single word you just used with only references to the 40k rules.

Because if you can’t… Basic language still applies.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 p5freak wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
I would recommend to play it by the actual rules, instead of speculation on what the rules might be.

This sub-forum deals in RAW.


Alright, if you want to go the RAW route, there is no rules basis for a unit shooting twice in 9th. Only shoot again. Since grinding advance doesnt say shoot again, it says shoot twice, you cant use the rule.


So by RAW, the 9th edition only unit "Eradicators" in the Space Marine Codex has a rule that does nothing because no precedent for their rule has been set in 9th edition, according to you?

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://anchor.fm/makethatgame

And I also stream tabletop painting/playing Mon&Thurs 8PM EST
https://twitch.tv/tableitgaming
And make YouTube videos for that sometimes!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Rihgu wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
I would recommend to play it by the actual rules, instead of speculation on what the rules might be.

This sub-forum deals in RAW.


Alright, if you want to go the RAW route, there is no rules basis for a unit shooting twice in 9th. Only shoot again. Since grinding advance doesnt say shoot again, it says shoot twice, you cant use the rule.


So by RAW, the 9th edition only unit "Eradicators" in the Space Marine Codex has a rule that does nothing because no precedent for their rule has been set in 9th edition, according to you?


You started this RAW nonsense. In 9th, shoot twice means shoot again. Its not 2D6 shoot once, its 1D6 the first time, and 1D6 the second time.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Nope. “Shoot twice” means just that. It’s not hard to parse. Don’t try and over complicate things for a YMDC fight. Just… be better.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nope. “Shoot twice” means just that. It’s not hard to parse. Don’t try and over complicate things for a YMDC fight. Just… be better.


Please quote the relevant 9th rule to show that its 2D6 once. The only rule allowing you to do that is "shoot again".
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nope. “Shoot twice” means just that. It’s not hard to parse. Don’t try and over complicate things for a YMDC fight. Just… be better.


Please quote the relevant 9th rule to show that its 2D6 once.
Gladly.

Grinding Advance from the Russ Dataslate...

"...it can shoot its turret weapon twice in the following Shooting phase"
The only rule allowing you to do that is "shoot again".
100% false.

The Grinding Advance rule says shoot twice, the "shoot again" rules are not used, as the Russ can not "shoot again" it does "shoot its turret weapon twice" though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 07:13:22


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nope. “Shoot twice” means just that. It’s not hard to parse. Don’t try and over complicate things for a YMDC fight. Just… be better.


Please quote the relevant 9th rule to show that its 2D6 once.
Gladly.

Grinding Advance from the Russ Dataslate...

"...it can shoot its turret weapon twice in the following Shooting phase"
The only rule allowing you to do that is "shoot again".
100% false.

The Grinding Advance rule says shoot twice, the "shoot again" rules are not used, as the Russ can not "shoot again" it does "shoot its turret weapon twice" though.


You failed to quote the rule which says its 2D6 once. They only way to "shoot twice" is to use the shoot again rule. Because thats the only rule allowing you to do something like that in 9th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 07:34:50


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
Spoiler:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Nope. “Shoot twice” means just that. It’s not hard to parse. Don’t try and over complicate things for a YMDC fight. Just… be better.


Please quote the relevant 9th rule to show that its 2D6 once.
Gladly.

Grinding Advance from the Russ Dataslate...

"...it can shoot its turret weapon twice in the following Shooting phase"
The only rule allowing you to do that is "shoot again".
100% false.

The Grinding Advance rule says shoot twice, the "shoot again" rules are not used, as the Russ can not "shoot again" it does "shoot its turret weapon twice" though.


You failed to quote the rule which says its 2D6 once. They only way to "shoot twice" is to use the shoot again rule. Because thats the only rule allowing you to do something like that in 9th.
Basic English language tells us that it is 2D6 once. (If you fast roll, maybe not technically allowed, but the results are the same).

No extra rules needed.

And once again the Russ does not "shoot twice" it shoots again, they are different as far as the rules are concerned.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 08:53:13


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

There is no rule that I can remember that turns a 1d6 weapon into a 2d6 weapon, in 8th or 9th.
But "Shoot twice" can be quick-rolled as 2d6, but not as a 2d6 weapon.
"Shoot again" is one after the other.

Both treat the number of models in the unit as before wounds are allocated, if from the same unit and weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 08:48:30


6000 pts - 4000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 1000 ptsDS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
IG/AM force nearly-finished pieces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-38888-41159_Armies%20-%20Imperial%20Guard.html
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 Skinnereal wrote:
There is no rule that I can remember that turns a 1d6 weapon into a 2d6 weapon, in 8th or 9th.
But "Shoot twice" can be quick-rolled as 2d6, but not as a 2d6 weapon.
"Shoot again" is one after the other.

Both treat the number of models in the unit as before wounds are allocated, if from the same unit and weapon.


You cant fast roll it as 2D6, because of blast. If you treat it as 2D6 shoot once you get the maximum number of shots against a 10+ model unit, which is 12 shots. If you treat it as shoot again (as you should, because its the only way to do that in 9th), you get 1D6 shots the first time. Thats 6 shots against a 10+ model unit. Lets say you kill enough models that the unit is now at 8 models. The second time you shoot (you must completely resolve the first shooting, before doing the second, as per the shoot again rule) you only get at least 3 shots, because the unit is now 8 models.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
There is no rule that I can remember that turns a 1d6 weapon into a 2d6 weapon, in 8th or 9th.
But "Shoot twice" can be quick-rolled as 2d6, but not as a 2d6 weapon.
"Shoot again" is one after the other.

Both treat the number of models in the unit as before wounds are allocated, if from the same unit and weapon.


You cant fast roll it as 2D6, because of blast. If you treat it as 2D6 shoot once you get the maximum number of shots against a 10+ model unit, which is 12 shots. If you treat it as shoot again (as you should, because its the only way to do that in 9th), you get 1D6 shots the first time. Thats 6 shots against a 10+ model unit. Lets say you kill enough models that the unit is now at 8 models. The second time you shoot (you must completely resolve the first shooting, before doing the second, as per the shoot again rule) you only get at least 3 shots, because the unit is now 8 models.


The distinction here is between the unit firing twice and the weapon firing twice. If the unit itself was firing twice you'd resolve each shot separately and determine the effect of Blast for each shot. In this case the rules just tells us the weapon shoots twice, which is not the same as the unit firing twice. The unit still only shoots once, it just gets to use its turret weapon twice, so the unit size of the target when it is selected to fire is used for both shots.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Slipspace wrote:
The distinction here is between the unit firing twice and the weapon firing twice. If the unit itself was firing twice you'd resolve each shot separately and determine the effect of Blast for each shot. In this case the rules just tells us the weapon shoots twice, which is not the same as the unit firing twice. The unit still only shoots once, it just gets to use its turret weapon twice, so the unit size of the target when it is selected to fire is used for both shots.
This is 100% correct.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

The shoot again rule still applies when only a weapon shoots twice, or again.

SHOOT AGAIN
Some rules allow units (or sometimes models or weapons) to shoot again in the Shooting phase, or shoot ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to shoot at the time when that rule is used.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 11:29:41


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
The shoot again rule still applies when only a weapon shoots twice, or again.

SHOOT AGAIN
Some rules allow units (or sometimes models or weapons) to shoot again in the Shooting phase, or shoot ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to shoot at the time when that rule is used.
It does not apply because of the wording on the Russ Dataslate.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
The shoot again rule still applies when only a weapon shoots twice, or again.

SHOOT AGAIN
Some rules allow units (or sometimes models or weapons) to shoot again in the Shooting phase, or shoot ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to shoot at the time when that rule is used.
It does not apply because of the wording on the Russ Dataslate.


Yes, it does. You have no permission to change the 1D6 battle cannon to 2D6. It doesnt say that anywhere in the grinding advance rule. The only rule allowing you to shoot twice, or again, is the shoot again rule.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
The shoot again rule still applies when only a weapon shoots twice, or again.

SHOOT AGAIN
Some rules allow units (or sometimes models or weapons) to shoot again in the Shooting phase, or shoot ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’. Such rules cannot be used on a unit unless it is eligible to shoot at the time when that rule is used.
It does not apply because of the wording on the Russ Dataslate.


Yes, it does. You have no permission to change the 1D6 battle cannon to 2D6. It doesnt say that anywhere in the grinding advance rule. The only rule allowing you to shoot twice, or again, is the shoot again rule.
You aren't changing the 1D6 battle cannon to 2D6. It is 1d6, then another 1d6. Same target shot again as per the rules on the Russ Dataslate. (This is not the shoot again rule, this is a bespoke rule on the Russ Dataslate).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

P5freak, give it a rest. Everyone has posted words proving you wrong. You keep saying “this rule is another rule” when that’s just (and I’m keeping the Tenets in mind and saying this as it’s the only option here) wrong. Accept consensus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 23:41:33


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries





I think it's reasonable to view the Grinding Advance ability (and other shoot twice abilities, such as the Eradicators' Total Obliteration) as a "shoot again" ability and not a "double the number of attacks" ability. Grinding Advance does explicitly say the "the turret weapon must target the same unit both times", whereas a rule like Bolter Discipline from Codex: Space Marine that says:
Instead of following the normal rules for Rapid Fire weapons, models in this unit shooting Rapid Fire bolt weapons make double the number of attacks if any of the following apply:
Bolter Discipline doesn't apply any such condition about targeting because each individual weapon can't split those additional shots up.

Another example I found that is in favor of "Shoot Twice" abilities not having simultaneous targeting on both shots is the T'au Empire stratagem "Hot-Blooded":
Use this Stratagem at the start of your shooting phase. Pick a VIOR’LA SEPT INFANTRY unit from your army. That unit may be chosen to shoot twice this phase, but all models in the unit must target the closest enemy unit each time they do so.

I would take that to mean that if I destroy the target unit, or just by sake of which models are destroyed another unit is closer, another unit may be the target of the second set of shots. The phrase "each time" I think is what really supports that interpretation.

So with Blast being an ability that is triggered when a unit is targeted, I would agree with p5freak's interpretation that the second turret shot would evaluate Blast separately from the first shot. This may also mean that the second shot may not be able to target that unit any longer due to LoS or distance. Total Obliteration would be in the same boat in that the rule requires both sets of shots to be at the same unit, but the second set of shots may not be able to actually target that unit due to Los or distance, and I think that's emphasized by the text in parenthesis at the end of the rule:
Total Obliteration: In your Shooting phase, each time this unit is selected to shoot, if it has not Advanced this turn, it can unleash total obliteration. If it does, select one enemy unit; models in this unit can shoot twice this phase, but they can only make attacks that target that enemy unit (and only if that enemy unit is an eligible target for those attacks).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/04 03:19:41


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Why I decided to revive my secondary dead account for these questions, of all things...? Anyway:
What is the Sequence used to shoot/fire a weapon?

It may seem a little off-topic but it has a lot to do with instructions telling us to shoot a weapon twice. Now I will admit I am long from the game, so I have not checked the specific wording, but it appears all we have to go off is "it can shoot its turret weapon twice." Oh, and a requirement to target the same target at that step of the sequence which is very important as others have pointed out. As there is no instruction here telling us to double any numeric value, or alter the sequence to inject an addition d6 into a role that is taking place, I wouldn't support that side unless they can provide some actual Written Rules to support this interpretation of 'may shoot twice.'

In addition:
This seems more like 'fast rolling confusion' seen elsewhere, where trying to speed things up change the end result of the game which never feels right, hence the questions it causes. The advise I give in those situations will also support the conclusion I give here - go slow. If you find a way to get a bonus simply by 'condensing' something down, there is a very good chance you are doing something that was not at all intended within the Rules. Given my almost ritualistic devotion to Sequencing, I would even say doing so is very much against the Written Rule of 'no simultaneous actions.'

Thus:
Repeat the Sequence, without altering it, any time you are told to do something twice/again/repeat/ect!

.

Now I will return to lurking, just a shadow that shouldn't be here....
Just had to back up P5Freek, it really doesn't happen often.
- For the Greatest of Pleasures

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/12/04 10:02:11


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Shall we just leave this now? Short of p5freak there is absolutely no doubt how this rule is played. OP has their info. P5 will keep bleating til thread lock so just leave them be.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I suggest you read what Jinx and nolan wrote, they support my argument. And on the other side we have DeathReaper, JohnyHell and Rihgu. Sounds like a tie to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/04 17:23:29


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Cool. Enjoy the thread.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
 
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