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Interesting to see that Craftworlds army perform (although doubt it would prevail in an open environment)

One thing to note is that not a single space marine army has a win rate at or above 50% (not counting GK, but they don't use the SM book as a base). Could be a lot of reasons for that, but does make you want to use the batman/robin meme when people still complain about marines being broken with their rules (granted, you don't hear it as much as 9th continues to move on).

Nothing worse than seeing an army you've only lost with pulling 60-70% win rates in tournaments despite supposedly being nerfed like four times now.

 Gert wrote:
Nothing worse than seeing an army you've only lost with pulling 60-70% win rates in tournaments despite supposedly being nerfed like four times now.

So I guess it's a question of what're you doing wrong? Unless you're just out of favor with the dice gods....

Playing Kabals instead of Cults and Covens I suppose
Not like I play competitively but when everyone was going around saying DE were amazing and non-stop winning I looked at my sad unpainted models and was like "bruh".

ccs wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Nothing worse than seeing an army you've only lost with pulling 60-70% win rates in tournaments despite supposedly being nerfed like four times now.

So I guess it's a question of what're you doing wrong? Unless you're just out of favor with the dice gods....

Internal balance is often quite bad. It's perfectly possible for the Codex to have game-winning builds in it and all the models you have to still be unplayable crap.

Looks at 40K vs AoS...

...YES.

Nice to see Harlequins on top yet again. I take it that voidweavers are doing better now?

Definitely a much better Meta article than all others prior.

Probably a pretty small sample size on Harlequins, but yeah, good to see continued strong performance. What makes you guess it's about Voidweavers though? I mean, they're not garbage, but they're not... good, either? AFAICT?

Voidweavers were the biggest change for Harles when moving to 9th edition as they gained blast and saw cost reduction, or so as I understand it.

The PA rules were damn good too.

 Gert wrote:
Playing Kabals instead of Cults and Covens I suppose
Not like I play competitively but when everyone was going around saying DE were amazing and non-stop winning I looked at my sad unpainted models and was like "bruh".

So you & they aren't playing the same army at all (other than in name) & yet you're sad that you aren't getting their results.

ccs wrote:
So you & they aren't playing the same army at all (other than in name) & yet you're sad that you aren't getting their results.

Look I'm clearly taking the rip here, I couldn't give two hoots what my win rate or stats are. Guess that'll teach me to make a joke

Does this mean I don't have to feel bad when I beat Tau Empire with Necrons?

Custodes are going to be totally busted when they get their codex aren't they? I'll bet that no points will get increased to account for gun katas, also, go watch Equilibrium, it is an excellent movie.

Nobody takes Voidweavers, they've been a joke since they were released. The reason Harlequins are strong in 9th is because they're mobile and ok in melee, ideal for 9th and most importantly they stayed the same points while everyone else got 10-20% more expensive.

ccs wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Playing Kabals instead of Cults and Covens I suppose
Not like I play competitively but when everyone was going around saying DE were amazing and non-stop winning I looked at my sad unpainted models and was like "bruh".

So you & they aren't playing the same army at all (other than in name) & yet you're sad that you aren't getting their results.

I mean, I'm not sure it's a point in the codex's favour to have such dramatic power differences between different builds. Moreover, it can create issues because nerfs inflicted to counter strong builds often end up hurting weaker builds just as much or even more.

As an example, the Succubus is currently 80pts (up 20pts) for a T3 melee HQ with 6 S5 Power Sword attacks. The reason for this is because certain artefact and warlord trait combinations can give it 4 times the killing power. However, that is entirely contingent on you taking those specific artefact/WT combinations, and not any of the other ones available, which don't increase its killing power by anything like that number. So if you happened to be using one of the many non-broken Succubus builds... sucks to be you, I guess.

It's just one example, of course. But the point is that weak builds can end up suffering because of penalties intended to bring down stronger builds. Except that while the OP builds have now been brought down to a more reasonable level, the weak builds are now struggling even more because they didn't deserve the nerf in the first place.

I am in a bit of shock that GW misunderstands top tournament players so badly.

The statement “in particular, we are interested in what causes top players to choose a faction (beyond it simply being a currently good or powerful faction)…..”

Really? Really?! There is no other consideration…..

caladancid wrote:
I am in a bit of shock that GW misunderstands top tournament players so badly.

The statement “in particular, we are interested in what causes top players to choose a faction (beyond it simply being a currently good or powerful faction)…..”

Really? Really?! There is no other consideration…..

It can be more nuanced than Ork units A, B, C are good at killing most units so I play Orks using A, B, C. It might be that Drukhari don't have psykers so they can take Abhor and units with FNPs are good at absorbing mortals so I figured it'd be good against Grey Knights which is a faction I am currently worried about.

ccs wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Nothing worse than seeing an army you've only lost with pulling 60-70% win rates in tournaments despite supposedly being nerfed like four times now.

So I guess it's a question of what're you doing wrong? Unless you're just out of favor with the dice gods....

Bc the book is 3 armies, Kabals was not strong to start with 9th and just got weaker, Wyches and Mercs was where it was at, that was nerf, Coven is not top dog. If you like Kabal/Wych combo you are playing a A-B tier army, if you are playing pure Kabal you are playing a D tier army, if you are playing Coven then its A or A+, mix in a Succubus and Hellions now its S tier.

While DE is doing well, not everyone wants to play that way. Its like if you are playing Marines or GK's without Dreads.

The biggest issue is Talos 2 main weapons are equal point to the worst weapons in the game. a Heat Lance should be 10pts, and a Ichor Injector should be 5pts, now the Talos is going to be 10-15pts more costly, when you take 6 of them that 60-90pts more, why is a twin Melta gun at 18" range equal points to a Splinter Pod with its rules taken away?


Image to show what is "winning" with DE https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/PCi7xRUj1fPtv0AB.jpg

Me that has the models to run this, still wouldn't run this bc its not what I like about DE.

Kabal are definitely not D-tier. DE are one of the best internally balanced books out of everyone. You can make a great list with a dart board. Not to say it is perfect, but this is a really odd argument.

 vict0988 wrote:

Nobody takes Voidweavers, they've been a joke since they were released. The reason Harlequins are strong in 9th is because they're mobile and ok in melee, ideal for 9th and most importantly they stayed the same points while everyone else got 10-20% more expensive.

Oh I see. I was given a different impression but okay.

It's a bit sad to see necrons still languishing at the bottom of that list after a balance pass. Hopefully they'll take another look at the protocols in the near future and maybe buff the damage of some of the weapons like their swingy d6 damage anti tank weapons.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Image to show what is "winning" with DE https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/PCi7xRUj1fPtv0AB.jpg

Me that has the models to run this, still wouldn't run this bc its not what I like about DE.

Wich I thinks begs the question of "Then why do you own the models to run that?" That's a fair bit of $ to invest in something you wouldn't run....

Bc formations in 7th required it and it was the only way to play DE without being tabled by turn 2. 1 Cronos, 1 Talos 1 Haemonculus for a 12" 4+ FnP aura and then 5 Talos fpr the CTC formation, also 2x 4-10 Grots (I did 2x10) with a Haemonculus for a free DS + run move after DS.

You started with the Haemon's, 6 Talos and 1 cronos on the board with 2 Lhamaean's, 3 Kabals, and DS 20 Grots. 7th was terrible for DE.

I bought Morgash models to make Cronos from Talos bits, so I got 2 Cronos for pretty cheap, did this twice for alternative play and builds if things changed, also my Grots are AoS Ogres (1 box of 6 for $35 back then, was pretty cheap honestly) and use the other Talos bits to make them.

ccs wrote:
rather than sobbing about how A =/= X (and refusing to use X), you should figure out how you're going to win/have fun with what you've chosen.

You've clearly misunderstood any of the meaning behind what I've said even after I clarified. So lets make this 100% clear:
It was a joke. I don't care about win rates or stats. I made a joke that despite DE being the top army for nearly a year, I hadn't won a game with them yet. None of what I said was serious and I certainly wasn't "sobbing" about it.

Clearly the trick to DE in 7th was to null deploy with Scalpel Squadrons so it takes longer for your opponent to table you.

Dark Artisan was a cool formation though. It felt like something that *should* exist rather than "like Talos? Buy 5 pls" like most of them.

With that said I can't really get behind DE being anything but monstrously powerful for most of the last year, unless you had an extremely skewed collection. (Idk, exactly 2k points, with say 3 Dissie Ravagers and a Jetfighter perhaps.)

The Black Adder wrote:
It's a bit sad to see necrons still languishing at the bottom of that list after a balance pass. Hopefully they'll take another look at the protocols in the near future and maybe buff the damage of some of the weapons like their swingy d6 damage anti tank weapons.

Im hoping some of it is just because with all the units changed to core its just taking some time to figure out all the new interactions with abilities and characters. The top players especially havent been giving necrons much of a look so Id imagine it would take a bit for a truly crazy combo to appear.

Tyel wrote:
With that said I can't really get behind DE being anything but monstrously powerful for most of the last year, unless you had an extremely skewed collection. (Idk, exactly 2k points, with say 3 Dissie Ravagers and a Jetfighter perhaps.)

DE definitely have strong units, though I think people might overestimate the strength of the codex as a whole. There's certainly a not insignificant number of units that are either outright terrible (Beasts, at least half the Archon's court, Haemonculi pre-balance patch, Kabalites, Trueborn and Bloodbrides after the most recent nerf etc.) or else only see play with one or two very specific builds (basically every DE character besides Drazhar). Especially if you're primarily playing against them, I think it's easy to forget all the units that are barely even seeing play.

Honestly, though, the bigger problem is that DE are just such a boring army to play. There's no sense of outmanoeuvring your opponent or using a lot of devious tricks (there's maybe 1 trick in the entire codex) and traps to win. It's just a load of units with high numbers relative to their points. I'd happy trade a good chunk of their current power if it meant actually feeling like I'm playing an army of murderous space-elf-vampires and insane scientists.

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:
With that said I can't really get behind DE being anything but monstrously powerful for most of the last year, unless you had an extremely skewed collection. (Idk, exactly 2k points, with say 3 Dissie Ravagers and a Jetfighter perhaps.)

DE definitely have strong units, though I think people might overestimate the strength of the codex as a whole. There's certainly a not insignificant number of units that are either outright terrible (Beasts, at least half the Archon's court, Haemonculi pre-balance patch, Kabalites, Trueborn and Bloodbrides after the most recent nerf etc.) or else only see play with one or two very specific builds (basically every DE character besides Drazhar). Especially if you're primarily playing against them, I think it's easy to forget all the units that are barely even seeing play.

Honestly, though, the bigger problem is that DE are just such a boring army to play. There's no sense of outmanoeuvring your opponent or using a lot of devious tricks (there's maybe 1 trick in the entire codex) and traps to win. It's just a load of units with high numbers relative to their points. I'd happy trade a good chunk of their current power if it meant actually feeling like I'm playing an army of murderous space-elf-vampires and insane scientists.

Well when you take away units, rules, gear, over and over and over again this is all that is left....

All the DE players saying that pure Kabals are D-Tier when just spamming raiders with true borns and incubus is stronger than most armies out there... specially most non tournament armies. Talk about delusion. Yeah characters need traits and relics to function, just like everyone else's characters. And yeah marine character have a ton of weapon options. Ask how that turned out with primaris.

Outside 3-4 unit choices the Dark Eldar Codex is full of stuff thats just soo cheap that they can trade up agaisnt nearly anything. If you are losing with that codex, right now, even after nerfs, is totally unto you as a player unless you are like, spamming beastmasters and resin beasts.

 Galas wrote:
All the DE players saying that pure Kabals are D-Tier when just spamming raiders with true borns and incubus is stronger than most armies out there... specially most non tournament armies. Talk about delusion. Yeah characters need traits and relics to function, just like everyone else's characters. And yeah marine character have a ton of weapon options. Ask how that turned out with primaris.

Outside 3-4 unit choices the Dark Eldar Codex is full of stuff thats just soo cheap that they can trade up agaisnt nearly anything. If you are losing with that codex, right now, even after nerfs, is totally unto you as a player unless you are like, spamming beastmasters and resin beasts.

You understand you need 3 Archons to "spam" trueborn right? And 1 Trueborn with gear with a single Raider is literally 250pts, 10pts shy of 2 Ravagers with is much better. Not only is only 1 Archon good, but more than 1 is a waste of points, cool now you have a throw away 80pts character for your 250pt boat that doesn't do more than 8D.

You do also understand that a BH Trueborn unit with 2 Blasters, a DL, a BH Raider with a DL only does 7.5D to a Rhino right? So it can't even kill 1 transport. You will need 2 more BH Raiders to do the job, that is 700pts to kill 1 Rhino. But 2 Ravagers will kill a Rhino for the same points as 1 Trueborn and 1 Raider, literally Trueborn are worst in almost every way.

If you look at the top list in the picture above you might notice... there are no Raiders.. SHOCK! Bc they are only good with Incubi/Wyches.

Guard still unable to effectively compete.

 Amishprn86 wrote:



Image to show what is "winning" with DE https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/PCi7xRUj1fPtv0AB.jpg

Me that has the models to run this, still wouldn't run this bc its not what I like about DE.

What's the point of having 8 talos, 15 grots, 50ish wracks if you don't want to play all of them?

Pure kabals are solid B tier I think. 60-70% kabals plus other stuff are already very competitive.