Maelstrom's Edge V2 Beta Rules released!

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**Spiral Arm Studios**

The 2nd edition of the Maelstrom’s Edge rulebook is on its way, and we're offering a sneak preview in the form of a downloadable Beta version of the rules. You can find the link at the end of this article, but you’re probably wondering: what’s changed? Is it a totally new game or just a sprucing up of the v1 rules? The answer is: a little bit of both.

If you’re a big fan of the v1 rules, then you’ll be pleased to know that the core pillars that comprise Maelstrom’s Edge are not only still there, but have been strengthened. It’s still an alternating activation, squad-based “skirmish” game (aka focused on small squads of 1-6 models) that features 6-sided dice (D6), multi-tiered mission objectives, a suppression mechanic, the ability to bring back destroyed units as reinforcements and a regenerating command point system that can be used for a variety of tactical functions.

If, on the other hand, you’re someone that liked the overall concept of the original Maelstrom’s Edge rules, but you thought that the rules were a little too fiddly, then we also have great news for you! The v2 rules have been totally re-written and highly streamlined: they are a good 30% shorter than the v1 rules as a result. While the v2 rules are undeniably simpler, they’ve also gotten more complex where it counts: giving you tons of new tactical decisions to make with your units during the game. On top of that, the dice rolling “engine” now feels really fresh: each round of shooting keeps both players involved rolling dice and utilizes a “dice flip” mechanic that adds an element of bad luck protection right into the core of the game.

Let’s run through some highlights of the major v2 changes:

SIMPLIFIED UNIT ACTIONS

The largest change in v2 is how unit actions work. The activation test is gone and a unit can now perform up to 3 actions, selected from: movement actions (Move, Dash, Charge), status actions (Aim, On the Move, Take Cover) and shooting actions (Fire, Suppressive Fire, CQ Fighting). While there are some additional caveats to this system (a unit can perform a maximum of only 1 movement and 1 shooting action per activation, for example), we’ve found during playtesting that by splitting the action rules into these smaller “bite-sized” chunks, it makes the whole system much easier to remember. In addition, decoupling movement, shooting and status rules from each other now gives players several new combinations of what to do with their units when they activate them.

SUPPRESSION THAT MATTERS

In v2, suppression is both much simplified and also a whole heck of a lot more deadly. Instead of utilizing tons of suppression tokens, each unit only has 6 suppression levels (which can be conveniently tracked with a D6 next to the unit). Not only does suppression still degrade a unit’s shooting and their ability to benefit from cover, but each time a unit already at max suppression is called upon to raise their suppression level again, one model in the unit instead suffers an injury (which is fatal for most standard infantry in the game). This means it is now entirely possible to ”suppress” an enemy unit to death, representing them fleeing from the battlefield due to the hail of firepower coming their way. This makes the new Suppressive Fire action (which trades-in a shooting unit’s ability to cause damage for a boosted ability to cause suppression) a deadly tool in certain situations.

A NEW DICE ENGINE

The new dice rolling engine in v2 is quite unique, but still based exclusively on 6-sided dice that most players prefer. It is both simple enough to quickly understand, yet nuanced enough to offer: built-in bad luck protection, having both players involved with each round of shooting and tactical player choice within the dice rolling process. Most importantly, when units shoot at each other, the amount of damage they cause now just feels right.

So how does the new system work? As a firing player, all you have to do is look to equal or beat the target’s Evasion characteristic (EVS) with your D6 rolls. For example, if the target has an EVS 4 (the standard EVS of most infantry units), you’d need results of 4-6 to successfully hit them. In addition, as the firing player you get to influence these results by making a number of “dice flips” (changing the result of rolls in your favor) up to the Skill characteristic (SKL) of your firing unit. For example, if your firing unit was SKL 3, you could add +3 to a single roll, +1 to 3 different rolls, or anywhere else in between. Where things really get interesting is that results of ‘1’ and ‘6’ are “critical” results. A “critical hit” (a hit roll result of ‘6’) provides that shot with extra lethality. But it also takes 2 dice flips to change a non-critical result into a critical result (a ‘5’ result into a ‘6’). This means sometimes you have to decide whether using 2 dice flips to change a single ‘5’ result into a critical hit will be more beneficial than just using those same dice flips to score two more standard hits.

And of course, once the firing player has determined how many hits they’ve scored on the target, the defending player gets to make an armor roll against each hit, looking to equal or exceed the Penetration characteristic (PEN) of the firing weapon. Similarly, the defending player gets to influence the results of these rolls with a number of dice flips equal to the Armor characteristic (AV) of their models.

FEWER SPECIAL RULES
With v2, we’ve realized that adding back a few more characteristics to the model/weapon profile means a big reduction in the amount of special abilities in the game. Plus, the abilities we have kept have been greatly simplified, all with the end goal of making each unit’s full rules (including all the text for their unit and weapon abilities) fit onto just a single page.

Here’s a quick rundown of the “new” model & weapon characteristics in v2:

The model profile has lost its Mass characteristic (MAS), but has gained the Close Quarters Attacks characteristic (CQA) instead, rectifying the biggest point of negative feedback we got about the v1 rules: the much maligned ‘formula’ that was necessary to determine how many melee shots a model was able to make.

The weapon profile has gained a Suppression characteristic (SUP), which is utilized when the unit makes a Suppressive Fire action.

The weapon profile has gained a Weapon Type characteristic (TYPE), which helps set apart the archetypal weapon rules (like “AoE”, “Heavy” or “Short Ranged”) from true weapon special abilities.

MORE LETHALITY

One goal of the v2 rules has been to improve the level of lethality in the game. Allowing massive amounts of suppression to inflict damage to a unit was a good first step, but the real key to this change has been the removal of the Mass characteristic (MAS) from the model profile. Now, each point of damage a model suffers just reduces their Fortitude (FOR) characteristic by 1 (and when a model reaches 0 FOR, it is a casualty). The vast majority of standard infantry models only have FOR 1, which means that any hit which gets through their armor will cause a casualty. While this doesn’t suddenly mean that models are now dying in droves in v2, we can safely say that you will notice and appreciate the increase in lethality in the game. You’ll definitely want to start using the reinforcement rules more often to bring back your destroyed units!

QUALITY OF LIFE IMPROVEMENTS

The v2 rules are chock full of little improvements that make the game feel way better overall. Here’s a taste of them:

Command points no longer need to be allocated to command models. They just stay in your command point pool until you decide to use them.

More command models have powerful abilities that cost command points to use, giving you further options for what to use your command points on (besides the mainstays of bringing back reinforcements and lowering suppression on your units). But don’t worry, we haven’t gone overboard and given every unit a Command Point based ability, these are still quite special.

When moving your units, you now only have to bother measuring and moving the unit’s squad leader. The rest of the models are just placed in coherency (within 3” of the squad leader) after their squad leader has finished being moved. This dramatically speeds up the process of moving units.

The v1 rules deliberately syphoned almost every non-damage effect down to just generating additional suppression, which made special abilities feel, well, not so special. With v2, we’ve expanded the range of what special abilities can do (and we’ll eventually be releasing a set of plastic tokens to help facilitate this). Be prepared to be able to set units on fire, slow them down, freeze them and confuse them, just to name a few options.

To promote unit movement, defensive fire in v2 has been reduced to just protecting a unit from being charged or shot by a hit and run attack. This means units equipped with Short Ranged weaponry can finally shine, being able to run up to enemy units and blast them at point blank range without fear of being decimated first.

The way mission objectives generate victory points (VPs) has been simplified, making it much easier to calculate how many VPs you’ve earned at the end of each turn. In addition, the margin you need to be ahead of your opponent to end the game immediately has been widened for all missions, now requiring a +5 VP margin. This gives a little more breathing room for close games to go the distance while still allowing for blowouts to end without one player having to bite the bullet and concede.

There are now 18 types of mission objectives (up from 12) and 6 different deployment maps (up from 2). There are also now 12 competitive missions and 6 narrative missions included with the core rulebook (up from 6 & 0 respectively). All this means there is now a whole lot more mission variety in v2!

There is a fun new objective marker placement rule forcing you to place objective markers in the opposing half of the table (and your opponent is bound by the same rule). This helps create tense, interesting games where both sides are fighting over objective markers clustered near the centerline of the table, as opposed to one player getting lucky and having one random objective marker near their deployment zone granting them an easy victory.

IN CONCLUSION

As you can see, the new rules for Maelstrom’s Edge are chock full of improvements...and none of what we’ve presented above even covers the massive rules re-work we’ve done for every single unit in the game. Their rules are both far more streamlined but also laser-focused on allowing them to perform exactly how they’re supposed to.
It’s been an extremely long time coming, but we can’t wait for you to try out the new rules and let us know what you think!

The new rulebook will be coming along (hopefully!) in the first half of 2022, but you can get a headstart on the V2 ruleset by downloading a Beta version of the rules here. The Beta rules documents contains all of the rules for playing the game, but keep in mind that these are just 'preview' documents - some rules may be revised based on feedback, and the final layout including background material for the factions and the Maelstrom's Edge universe, artwork and other 'flavor' material is missing.

If you have any thoughts on the new rules, you can chime in here, or pop on over to the Comm Guild Facebook group. We welcome any feedback, and would love to hear how everyone's forces stack up in the new rules!

**dicewar**

Exciting!
I think the v1 rules were great, but I've kept this game on ice while waiting for v2.
Playing a game solo now to learn v2, but I'll play a few real games soon.

Here's a few questions after reading/playing a little bit:

Deployment - The Attacker can place up to 2 On The Move Tokens on each unit.
Q: Do these units get the bonus +D3" movements?

Dashing -
Q: Can I fire Suppressive Fire after Dashing?

Karist Faction Objective -
Q: When do I need to declare that I'm using Resupply? Can I do it after rolling to hit?

Slowed -
Q: Is this cumulative?

Frozen -
Q: This is like a stronger Slowed, yet it has no effect on EVS. Is that correct?

Critical Hit - Perfect Strike -
Q: Is this a special ability that is triggered by a critical result? Do I need to choose between Perfect Strike and other special abilities i might have that are triggered by rolling 6s to hit? Does Perfect Strike apply to wild fire?

Push the Machines -
Q: It seems to be "hard-coded" with an 18" range? So it's not affected by Command Booster Micro Drones?

Reserves -
Q: Do you not need to declare that reinforcements are arriving this turn? No wild fire for reserves?

Cybel Frenzy - Supression level increased by 1 for each 1 to hit on QC Fighting
Q: Is the Suppression level increased immediately? So they can lose SKL on the current QC Fighting action?
Q: Can i use SKL to "save" from Cybel Frenzy by flipping 1s?

QC Fighting -
Q: Is it correct that cover from terrain and Taking Cover apply in QC Fighting?

**yakface**

dicewar wrote:
Exciting!
I think the v1 rules were great, but I've kept this game on ice while waiting for v2.
Playing a game solo now to learn v2, but I'll play a few real games soon.

Great batch of questions, very illuminating! Thanks so much for asking.

Deployment - The Attacker can place up to 2 On The Move Tokens on each unit.
Q: Do these units get the bonus +D3" movements?

As written currently, yes. However, that wasn't intended and could lead to some really weird situations, so most likely we'll be changing it to clarify that the bonus move doesn't apply in this case. With that said, you could try playing with the bonus move being allowed and tell me what you think. Remember, the standard rules for movement would still apply to this bonus move, so you couldn't use it to move in contact with the enemy for example.

Dashing -
Q: Can I fire Suppressive Fire after Dashing?

Absolutely! Suppressive Fire is specifically designed to allow units that have so much suppression and/or other SKL penalties that they cannot Fire normally to still shoot/affect enemy units.

Karist Faction Objective -
Q: When do I need to declare that I'm using Resupply? Can I do it after rolling to hit?

Yes, that is the intention. It seems clear to me as written, but do you think it should be further clarified in some way? And just to note, looking at the wording now of the 'Cache Resupply' rule, it hasn't been properly updated from v1. It should now be:

"Cache Resupply: Once per turn, a single friendly unit in control of the cache may opt to either re-roll their hit rolls when performing a Fire action or re-roll their suppression tests when performing a Suppressive Fire action."

Slowed -
Q: Is this cumulative?

Yes, that is the intention.

Frozen -
Q: This is like a stronger Slowed, yet it has no effect on EVS. Is that correct?

Currently no, there is no effect on EVS for the 'frozen' ability. The goal was to have abilities that did different things, not necessary to have Frozen be the 'better' version of Slowed, but I agree that the discrepancy is a little strange, so we'll probably add something to Frozen that either reduces the target's EVS by -1 or automatically sets it down to 1 (the latter option would obviously be insanely powerful). Feel free to try testing Frozen with no EVS effect, a -1 EVS effect and an automatic set to EVS 1 and let us know what you think.

Critical Hit - Perfect Strike -
Q: Is this a special ability that is triggered by a critical result? Do I need to choose between Perfect Strike and other special abilities i might have that are triggered by rolling 6s to hit? Does Perfect Strike apply to wild fire?

Yes it is. If a weapon has a critical ability, you have to choose between that and perfect strike for each critical hit you achieve. We will make sure this is even more clear in the final release.

Push the Machines -
Q: It seems to be "hard-coded" with an 18" range? So it's not affected by Command Booster Micro Drones?

This is a really, really powerful ability and the command booster micro drones are still quite a useful upgrade even if they don't affect this ability. With that said, for consistency's sake the range of this ability should probably match the command range of the model, so feel free to test it that way and let me know what you think.

Reserves -
Q: Do you not need to declare that reinforcements are arriving this turn? No wild fire for reserves?

No, the intention is that you no longer need to declare reserves are going to arrive and there is no blanket wild fire penalty for units arriving from reserve (unless they use an ability to arrive that specifies otherwise, like Aerial Insertion for example. With that said, we made one last second (major) change to reserves that will be in the final version but didn't make it into the beta, and that is: any reserves you have on a given turn *must* arrive if at all possible (so no holding off your commander multiple turns during an assassination mission objective, for example).

Cybel Frenzy - Supression level increased by 1 for each 1 to hit on QC Fighting
Q: Is the Suppression level increased immediately? So they can lose SKL on the current QC Fighting action?
Q: Can i use SKL to "save" from Cybel Frenzy by flipping 1s?

Yeah, all the abilities that trigger suppression onto the firing unit are supposed to add that suppression at the END of the round of shooting. Cyber Frenzy didn't get properly updated, but we'll fix it for the final release. And yes, you can absolutely use SKL dice flips to avoid hit roll '1' results that will give you a penalty!

QC Fighting -
Q: Is it correct that cover from terrain and Taking Cover apply in QC Fighting?

Yes and no. Note that Melee weapons always ignore cover. Pistol attacks can be blocked by cover, but only if the attacking unit also charged during that same activation. If the attacking unit started its activation already in contact with the enemy unit and then initiated a CQ Fighting action against them, then their target is no longer protected by any cover tokens they may have. That rule is found at the end of the 'CQ FIGHTING RESULTS' box-out on page 24. Note that the 'UNITS FACING OFF' section on that page is not written/organized well and has been re-worked a bit for the final release to make it more clear (but that didn't make it in time for the beta release).

**JNAProductions**

Increasing Shots for Artarian Remnant weapons by raising suppression seems iffy, given that that also decreases hit chance.

Is that intended to be a weaker option?

Edit: Also, Small Blast targeting a large model-3 shots or 2? Since they count as three models.

Edit II: Broken, they have +1 to WP tests at 4 models. Is that meant to be 4 or less, or just at 4?

**yakface**

JNAProductions wrote:
Increasing Shots for Artarian Remnant weapons by raising suppression seems iffy, given that that also decreases hit chance.

Is that intended to be a weaker option?

Adding suppression to a unit doesn't directly decrease a unit's chance to hit (as at its core that's just rolling against the target's EVS), but it of course reduces the unit's chance to utilize dice flips in order to generate additional hits (or change regular hits into critical hits). The Artarians have the highest SKL in the game, which means you can definitely stand to burn some of your SKL in order to maximize firepower if you want. In addition, you can also now take an Aim action which gives the unit +2 SKL. And of course the Artarians also have the ability to shed suppression really easily in the form of Vent Systems.

I think once you try the Artarian weapons in v2, you'll quickly realize the increase in lethality has made them a force to be reckoned with. But yeah, the goal is to try to put them at a point where you don't always necessarily feel like you have to or need to overcharge their weapons (as doing so will generate suppression) but rather in certain situations it is a powerful tool and well worth the suppression to utilize.

Edit: Also, Small Blast targeting a large model-3 shots or 2? Since they count as three models.

In the beta PDF, a single large model hit by a small blast would generate 2 extra hits (half of 3=2) and a single large model hit by a large blast would generate an extra 5 hits.

However, we are going to change this in the final release to make it (a bit) more simple. Each large model will count as 4 models against AoE attacks (for both small and large blasts). Since small blasts count as half the number of models in the unit, if the unit is a single large model, that means 2 extra hits for a small blast (1/2 of 4) and 4 extra hits for a large blast (one less than what is in the beta PDF).

The goal is to make AoE weapons best against big multi-model units, though not completely worthless against single large targets either.

Edit II: Broken, they have +1 to WP tests at 4 models. Is that meant to be 4 or less, or just at 4?

Yes, 1-3 models means no bonus. 4 models equals a +1 bonus and 5-6 models equals a +2 bonus.

**dicewar**

Thanks for the nice reply.
On some of the questions, like using cache resupply after rolling to hit, it seems pretty clear to me as well. However, they are genuine points where I had doubts and had to stop and think about it. I included those as feedback.

Some questions are just me not reading the rules properly. I see now that it says clearly that perfect strike is a special ability.

Slowed/Frozen:
Maybe some effect on the dodge ability can be used to set them apart?

Cover in CQ Fighting:
It may be better for pistol-armed troops to use unarmed instead of pistols when charging an enemy unit in cover?

**JNAProductions**

yakface wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Increasing Shots for Artarian Remnant weapons by raising suppression seems iffy, given that that also decreases hit chance.

Is that intended to be a weaker option?

Adding suppression to a unit doesn't directly decrease a unit's chance to hit (as at its core that's just rolling against the target's EVS), but it of course reduces the unit's chance to utilize dice flips in order to generate additional hits (or change regular hits into critical hits). The Artarians have the highest SKL in the game, which means you can definitely stand to burn some of your SKL in order to maximize firepower if you want. In addition, you can also now take an Aim action which gives the unit +2 SKL. And of course the Artarians also have the ability to shed suppression really easily in the form of Vent Systems.

I think once you try the Artarian weapons in v2, you'll quickly realize the increase in lethality has made them a force to be reckoned with. But yeah, the goal is to try to put them at a point where you don't always necessarily feel like you have to or need to overcharge their weapons (as doing so will generate suppression) but rather in certain situations it is a powerful tool and well worth the suppression to utilize.

Edit: Also, Small Blast targeting a large model-3 shots or 2? Since they count as three models.

In the beta PDF, a single large model hit by a small blast would generate 2 extra hits (half of 3=2) and a single large model hit by a large blast would generate an extra 5 hits.

However, we are going to change this in the final release to make it (a bit) more simple. Each large model will count as 4 models against AoE attacks (for both small and large blasts). Since small blasts count as half the number of models in the unit, if the unit is a single large model, that means 2 extra hits for a small blast (1/2 of 4) and 4 extra hits for a large blast (one less than what is in the beta PDF).

The goal is to make AoE weapons best against big multi-model units, though not completely worthless against single large targets either.

Edit II: Broken, they have +1 to WP tests at 4 models. Is that meant to be 4 or less, or just at 4?

Yes, 1-3 models means no bonus. 4 models equals a +1 bonus and 5-6 models equals a +2 bonus.

Garch. And yeah, the SKL changes make sense with Suppression and boosting weapon shots for the Remnant.

Thanks!

**insaniak**

dicewar wrote:

Cover in CQ Fighting:
It may be better for pistol-armed troops to use unarmed instead of pistols when charging an enemy unit in cover?

The unarmed profile is only used when a model has no melee weapons or pistols. From a quick flick through, I think about the only model who might be better off ignoring their weapons is a Broken chieftain armed with a pair of slug pistols.

**JNAProductions**

So, can I ask a favor? I want to try running some of the new MEdge, but I don't want to make two lists myself, since I'd know what I'm brining against me.

If anyone wants to drop some 120 point lists, I'd be eager to test my own list against them. I'm also asking my friends to take a gander at the game, but they're not huge wargamers.

**insaniak**

Here's a few to get you started. These are adapted from the V1 lists up on the MEdge website, using just plastic models. The Epirian and Karist lists were 150 points in V1, but due to some points reductions on most of their units these only needed a little tweaking to fit into 120 points in V2. The Broken list didn't change as much points-wise - this was just a very small edit of the 120 point all-plastic list for V1.

I'll be adding these and some more advanced lists to the website over the next couple of weeks.

**bbb**

Edit: nevermind, the post right above answered my question.

Looking forward to trying things out!

**solkan**

I've got a rules question concerning moving units in the new rules.

In order to move a unit, first move only the unit’s squad leader, measuring distance along the path the
squad leader travels (as opposed to just measuring a straight line between where it starts and ends its move). A squad leader's movement can pass freely through friendly standard-sized models, but may not pass through large models, enemy models or through the gaps between enemy models that are part of the same unit. A moving model can never end its move on top of another model, and may not typically end its move in contact with an enemy model, though certain types of move, such as a charge, allow this.

Once you’ve finished moving the unit’s squad leader, place the rest of the unit’s models in coherency, facing the same direction as their squad leader. These models still count as moving, and therefore cannot be placed on top of another model, etc. Movement distance is only measured for the unit’s squad leader, not for the additional models which are placed after the squad leader finishes moving.

This question is probably more to do with presentation than mechanics. But, given how the rules are currently presented, what stops the placed models in a unit being placed in the area "covered" by an enemy unit? I want to jump to the conclusion that the intended result is "The squad members move to their new positions, so a path to that position has to exist, but the distance is irrelevant." But at the same time, I expect that there are some rare cases where a squad member could be in a position where it can't go anywhere, and the simplest way to avoid that those problems is to just let the squad members teleport from their old position to their new position without moving along the table.

One of the teleport required situations: A member of Squad A is put in position along a wall (either a long straight section or an L section). An enemy squad B moves nearby and positions squad members along the wall, so that all of the movement paths for that member of Squad A would require crossing 'gaps between enemy models that are part of the same unit'.

If Squad A's leader moves, does that squad member jump away from that position, or do the rules do something else?

**insaniak**

The only model that needs a clear movement path is the squad leader. This is a deliberate abstraction to speed up the movement process, by removing the need to check movement distance and path for each individual model.

So yes, that can lead to the odd situation where a model can move despite being 'trapped' by other models and/or terrain, but those situations are going to be rare. The trade-off is that movement is an awful lot faster and easier, with less opportunity for dodgy measurement-related shenanigans.

**yakface**

solkan wrote:
This question is probably more to do with presentation than mechanics. But, given how the rules are currently presented, what stops the placed models in a unit being placed in the area "covered" by an enemy unit? I want to jump to the conclusion that the intended result is "The squad members move to their new positions, so a path to that position has to exist, but the distance is irrelevant." But at the same time, I expect that there are some rare cases where a squad member could be in a position where it can't go anywhere, and the simplest way to avoid that those problems is to just let the squad members teleport from their old position to their new position without moving along the table.

One of the teleport required situations: A member of Squad A is put in position along a wall (either a long straight section or an L section). An enemy squad B moves nearby and positions squad members along the wall, so that all of the movement paths for that member of Squad A would require crossing 'gaps between enemy models that are part of the same unit'.

If Squad A's leader moves, does that squad member jump away from that position, or do the rules do something else?

Yep, the non-squad leader models essentially 'teleport' to their new position after the squad leader finishes being moved.

When we made the v1 version of the game, despite the focus being exclusively on small squads (1-6 models), I still had all the crazy shenanigans that can occur in 40k in my head when you're dealing with things like multiple 30 man Ork boyz units. So in the v1 rules we bent over backwards writing minutiae to eliminate those kinds of exploits. But after playing with MEdge for years now, we've realized that when you're dealing with just a handful of small squads per side, those types of situations just don't happen almost ever, and they certainly aren't worth wasting space in the rules to try to eliminate.

So yes, this new streamlined movement rule can lead to some theoretically unrealistic situations and super minor 'exploits' (if you want to even call them that) when moving the non-squad leader models, but it is absolutely worth it as it helps to speed up the gameplay quite nicely.

**solkan**

Okay, so the point where that's confusing is the "etc" in "These models still count as moving, and therefore cannot be placed on top of another model, etc." concerning the non-leader squad members.

Pragmatically...
- you can't place a model on top of another model
- you can't place a model in impassable terrain
- being placed in base contact with an enemy model requires permission (from a charge or otherwise)
but what else applies to the non-leader models?

It'd be clearer with those points spelled out without the "etc."

**Sgt. Oddball**

Something to the tune of 'they do not follow the movement rules, but do count as moving and cannot be placed in a spot where they would not be allowed to go if they were the squad leader.'?

**yakface**

solkan wrote:
Okay, so the point where that's confusing is the "etc" in "These models still count as moving, and therefore cannot be placed on top of another model, etc." concerning the non-leader squad members.

Pragmatically...
- you can't place a model on top of another model
- you can't place a model in impassable terrain
- being placed in base contact with an enemy model requires permission (from a charge or otherwise)
but what else applies to the non-leader models?

It'd be clearer with those points spelled out without the "etc."

Yep, great feedback. We will definitely tweak that wording in the final release to make it more clear. There are actually specific rules for this, the 'valid position' rules on page 17 that this section on placing the additional models in a moving unit just needs to reference.

**JNAProductions**

Karist Proselytizer can be added to a squad for -1 points? That seems like a bad idea.

Or does it replace a model, for -1 points?

**yakface**

JNAProductions wrote:
Karist Proselytizer can be added to a squad for -1 points? That seems like a bad idea.

Or does it replace a model, for -1 points?

Gah. For a brief time we toyed with changing how add-on models work so that they replaced an existing model in the unit and the -1 point value was reflective of that idea.

It should actually be "+1 pt." (it's intentionally low because losing the ability to take an extra model with a gun in the unit is kind of a penalty on its own).

We may need to put a revised Karist v2 beta PDF to fix that. Thank you for posting this!

**JNAProductions**

I mean, 1 point for an ablative wound feels pretty good, when most other models run 3+ points.

**yakface**

JNAProductions wrote:
I mean, 1 point for an ablative wound feels pretty good, when most other models run 3+ points.

It may need to end up being +2 points, but try abusing the heck out of it at +1 point and see how it feels.

The thing is, the way cover/fields/dodges work in MEdge, not to mention AV dice flips, these are all a fixed resource (refreshed again with each round of shooting), so having enough shots to get past those types of defenses helps make a unit's firepower potent. Smaller units will often struggle causing casualties because of this, as the enemy's cover/field/dodge just negates the few hits they get (which is why it is often a good idea for smaller units to focus more on suppressive fire (if wanting to target an enemy with those kinds of defenses).

That is why the initial cost of a unit is often cheaper than the the points to add more models. It's the additional models that tend to kick the firepower of a unit up beyond the threshold of always being cause damage beyond most defensive options. Since an add-on model takes up 1 spot of adding a model to a unit, you do lose quite a bit of the squad's maximum firepower potential by taking them.

**JNAProductions**

For Karist Angel things that raise suppression on a hit of 1, is that a FINAL RESULT of 1, or a NATURAL 1?

So, if my Minnows do CQ Fighting and use Cybel Frenzy, getting a total of 12 shots (four Minnows, 2 Attacks base, +1 for 1 Suppression) and I roll two 1s on the dice, can I use my one Skill flip to change that to a 2 and only raise my own suppression by one level?

**yakface**

JNAProductions wrote:
For Karist Angel things that raise suppression on a hit of 1, is that a FINAL RESULT of 1, or a NATURAL 1?

So, if my Minnows do CQ Fighting and use Cybel Frenzy, getting a total of 12 shots (four Minnows, 2 Attacks base, +1 for 1 Suppression) and I roll two 1s on the dice, can I use my one Skill flip to change that to a 2 and only raise my own suppression by one level?

There are rules for 'natural rolls' in MEdge (page 10, sidebar), so if a rule doesn't say 'natural' in it, that means after any modifiers and/or dice flips have finished being applied.

But note a couple of things:

• I clarified in an earlier post (to someone else) that the Angel Minnow's Cybel Frenzy rule should mention (and will mention in the final release) that the Angel unit doesn't apply any suppression it causes itself until after their round of shooting is complete.

• It takes an extra dice flip (so 2 dice flips) to change a critical miss (roll of a '1') into a '2'. Since Angel Minnows only have a SKL 1, they're not going to be able to do that, as they cannot 'aim' (to get +2 SKL) once in base contact with the enemy. So unless they get their SKL boosted by some other means (which there currently isn't a way that I can think of for them), they aren't able to take advantage of dice flips to avoid rolling a '1' in CQ Fighting.

But despite that, Angel Minnows are quite cheap and quite quick. They will likely gain some suppression when attacking an enemy unit that is suppressed in CQ fighting, but they will also likely tear that enemy unit up, so its usually totally worth it!

**JNAProductions**

yakface wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
For Karist Angel things that raise suppression on a hit of 1, is that a FINAL RESULT of 1, or a NATURAL 1?

So, if my Minnows do CQ Fighting and use Cybel Frenzy, getting a total of 12 shots (four Minnows, 2 Attacks base, +1 for 1 Suppression) and I roll two 1s on the dice, can I use my one Skill flip to change that to a 2 and only raise my own suppression by one level?

There are rules for 'natural rolls' in MEdge (page 10, sidebar), so if a rule doesn't say 'natural' in it, that means after any modifiers and/or dice flips have finished being applied.

But note a couple of things:

• I clarified in an earlier post (to someone else) that the Angel Minnow's Cybel Frenzy rule should mention (and will mention in the final release) that the Angel unit doesn't apply any suppression it causes itself until after their round of shooting is complete.

• It takes an extra dice flip (so 2 dice flips) to change a critical miss (roll of a '1') into a '2'. Since Angel Minnows only have a SKL 1, they're not going to be able to do that, as they cannot 'aim' (to get +2 SKL) once in base contact with the enemy. So unless they get their SKL boosted by some other means (which there currently isn't a way that I can think of for them), they aren't able to take advantage of dice flips to avoid rolling a '1' in CQ Fighting.

But despite that, Angel Minnows are quite cheap and quite quick. They will likely gain some suppression when attacking an enemy unit that is suppressed in CQ fighting, but they will also likely tear that enemy unit up, so its usually totally worth it!

They can gain a SKL bonus from Angel Paint Tokens.

Edit: Was doing some shower thinking. A squad of 6 Minnows, attacking a unit with 6 Suppression on them, does 48 attacks.
That's usually gonna be 16 (EVS 5) to 32 (EVS 3) hits.
One third of those go through, for 5-11 DAM 2 hits. (Not accounting for flips, of course.)
That'll kill just about anything in the game. And you roll not more than 80 dice across your attacks and your opponent's response.

Compare that to 40k-a squad of 30 Devilgants, supported by a Tervigon, double tapping with a strat, just about kill one 10-man squad of Imperial Marines.
For reference, that's just shy of 400 dice rolled. If they're Iron Hands or have an Apothecary supporting them, it goes to over 400 dice rolled, and they don't even fully die.

So thanks for keeping the dice manageable!

**yakface**

JNAProductions wrote:
They can gain a SKL bonus from Angel Paint Tokens.

Uh, oh yeah! Not entirely sure how I managed to forget about that!

Edit: Was doing some shower thinking. A squad of 6 Minnows, attacking a unit with 6 Suppression on them, does 48 attacks.
That's usually gonna be 16 (EVS 5) to 32 (EVS 3) hits.
One third of those go through, for 5-11 DAM 2 hits. (Not accounting for flips, of course.)
That'll kill just about anything in the game. And you roll not more than 80 dice across your attacks and your opponent's response.

Compare that to 40k-a squad of 30 Devilgants, supported by a Tervigon, double tapping with a strat, just about kill one 10-man squad of Imperial Marines.
For reference, that's just shy of 400 dice rolled. If they're Iron Hands or have an Apothecary supporting them, it goes to over 400 dice rolled, and they don't even fully die.

So thanks for keeping the dice manageable!

The intent of the Cybel Frenzy rule is that you just get bonus attacks for the UNIT (not per Angel Minnow model in the unit), which you can then utilize those extra attacks with any of the attacking models in the unit. HOWEVER, seeing that you didn't pick up on that fact and ruminating on the rule a bit more, I can see it will need to be rewritten for the final version of the game.

Cybel Frenzy should make Angel Minnows quite powerful in CQ Fighting against a heavily suppressed foe, but it should not be a god-power, given how cheap Angel Minnows are (and are supposed to be). But at the same time, the 'regular' frenzy rule will just gives all models in a unit +1 CQA at the cost of rolls of '1' raising their suppression. In comparison, the Cybel Frenzy rule (as written how we currently intended it to be) would require an enemy unit be at suppression level 6 for a 6-man unit of Angel Minnows to get the full +6 shots, but giving them the same penalty at all times of raising their own suppression when they roll a '1'.

As such, the final version of the rule will probably be something like:

CYBEL FRENZY: During CQ Fighting, if the the target has a suppression level of 2-3, then all models in this unit with Cybel Frenzy, gain +1 CQA. If the target has a suppression level of 4+, then this bonus increases to +2 CQA. However, if the target has a suppression level of 2+, then each hit roll result of ‘1’ by a model with Cybel Frenzy raises this unit’s suppression level by +1 (after the round of shooting).

It's longer and a bit more clunky, but it more accurately represents how the Cybel Frenzy ability is *supposed* work. You need to get at least 2 suppression levels on the enemy unit to make it work at all, but if you can get that up to 4+ before attacking, you'll be doing a really nice amount of attacks/damage. And if you're attacking a target at suppression level 1 or less then you don't suffer any penalties for rolling '1' to hit.

**JNAProductions**

Yeah, that's not the way I read it right now. Good to know the intent.