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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Hey all,

Watching a lot of battle reports recently where players are having to roll dice one at a time for various reasons, damage per model, inceptor plasma expolding etc.

However players also seem happy to roll multiple hits simultaneously under the 'fast-rolling' rule (for a unit for example) and then pick out a miss or fail to wound for a command re-roll. Technically it seems the command re-roll is on 'a' hit or wound, and so hits should really be rolled one at a time so you would have to decide on each miss if it was worth the re-roll, without knowing if the following hits were going to hit.

While this might seem picky and rules lawyer-y (I completely agree) re-rolling a crucial wound roll when you realise your unit is 1 wound short to pip that last wound can be game changing. Note this also applies for saves as fast-rolling rule states damage should be applied and resolved one at a time, so using a command re-roll on a bunch of saves once youve seen that you only need one more save to live, doesnt seem technically right.

So just wanted to see what other players think / do.

1) just play command re-roll as pick any dice from a fast-roll group. Its not that important and as long as everyone does it this way it balances out.
2) as above but fast-roll all the other stuff too as life is too short and its only a game (my stance but im a rubbish player )
3) roll every dice one at a time
4) ive missed some comment somewhere in the rules and got it totally wrong

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/07 10:12:29


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

This isnt a rules question, so it should be general discussions.

I see no difference in rolling hits one at a time and waiting until the last hit roll, for that wound reroll, or fast rolling all hits and all wounds, and then rerolling one wound roll.

While fast rolling saves is not allowed by the rules, its ok if there is no reason that would require to roll them one at a time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/07 10:28:04


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




P5- the reason was outlined. If you fast roll you can see how close you are to doing the damage you need, to se e whether a reroll is worth it. This can be big - it might stop you didcating another unit to firing at the almost dead target


Yes op, it has a technical benefit, but for the sake of speeding up the game, it's well worth the trade off for me. If both players do it, it's likely to balance itself out over a game.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 p5freak wrote:
This isnt a rules question, so it should be general discussions.

I see no difference in rolling hits one at a time and waiting until the last hit roll, for that wound reroll, or fast rolling all hits and all wounds, and then rerolling one wound roll.

While fast rolling saves is not allowed by the rules, its ok if there is no reason that would require to roll them one at a time.



Okay you need to pass on 4+. You can fail 1 and you are fine. 2 and you are bad. There's no big difference in do you fail 0 or 1.

You roll all at once. You roll 1, 2, 5, 6, 4.

Easy CP reroll. You are failing but if you CP reroll succeeds it's success.

You roll 1, 2, 3, 5, 6. Now you don't CP because your unit is dead anyway and it would be wasted CP.

If you roll 1 at the time and you roll 2 at the first time do you CP reroll it? If you do and fail and fail one more you wasted CP. If you do and succeed but then roll 2 more times you wasted CP.

If you fast roll all and THEN decide CP reroll you are gaining more information than you would have if you didn't fast roll...

And it gets even crazier if sister miracle dices are involved.

And that's why I have stopped saving miracle dice for say last 2 damage rolls which technically is possible but it twists game in my favour exploiting fast dice roll. And it encourages opponent to NOT fast dice roll and insist slow rolling. If I try to game it and it's forced to slow roll...do I save that 6 damage when inv save could later be passed to negating chance to use MD?

In short RAW you should use CP before you know later rolls. Haven't seen anybody to play that way though for sake of speed. But as such if I do 3 damage dice with sisters I use MD right away rather than exploit fast dice rolling. This way as above both players are in essence playing under same rules so it balances out.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/07 11:10:32


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Leicester, UK

Fast dice rolling is allowed by the rules - see the sidebar on p221 of the core rule book. So the command roll ability to re-roll any one of those hit or wound dice applies to fast rolling too, I thnk. So there's no issue really.

Miracle dice, I am unsure about.

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




You can only fast roll if the order of results is irrelevant, which doesn't always apply. It's also not allowed to fast roll saves, which is where this issue comes up most often.

In any situation where there's a possibility the order the results happen in could matter you shouldn't fast roll and should roll one at a time. It's most common with saves, where failing 1 means you'd re-roll but failing more than that means you wouldn't. If you fail the first roll out of, say, 4, you are less likely to re-roll than if you failed the final roll out of the 4.

Personally I wish GW would just get rid of slow dice rolling and let everything be fast rolled. It'd be easy enough to just allow either the defender or the attacker (designer's choice) to apply the results most advantageously.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Thanks for the responses everyone. Glad ive understood it correctly and most are of similar opinion. Id not be upset with playing either way, as there are clearly speed and ease benefits of going against the true correct way of the rule.

   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Slipspace wrote:
You can only fast roll if the order of results is irrelevant,
"order of results" really does not have anything to do with being able to fast roll.

All you need to be able to fast roll is:

"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it's a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it's a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength and Armour Penetration characteristics, they must inflict the same Damage, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit."

Nothing in there about the order of results.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 DeathReaper wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
You can only fast roll if the order of results is irrelevant,
"order of results" really does not have anything to do with being able to fast roll.

All you need to be able to fast roll is:

"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it's a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it's a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength and Armour Penetration characteristics, they must inflict the same Damage, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit."

Nothing in there about the order of results.


I’ve been looking for this quote on the App, what section is it in?
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





As mentioned yes its a small advantage to see the entire roll before deciding to use a re-roll but for the sake of speed people often ignore it. If you play 40k rolling everything you might possibly want to re-roll individually games will take way to long.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Aash wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
You can only fast roll if the order of results is irrelevant,
"order of results" really does not have anything to do with being able to fast roll.

All you need to be able to fast roll is:

"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it's a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it's a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength and Armour Penetration characteristics, they must inflict the same Damage, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit."

Nothing in there about the order of results.


I’ve been looking for this quote on the App, what section is it in?
I do not have the app, so I do not know if that is in the App.

I got that quote from the BRB P. 221 in the sidebar. (It is not even in the PDF rules that I can see).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 DeathReaper wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
You can only fast roll if the order of results is irrelevant,
"order of results" really does not have anything to do with being able to fast roll.

All you need to be able to fast roll is:

"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it's a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it's a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength and Armour Penetration characteristics, they must inflict the same Damage, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit."

Nothing in there about the order of results.


I think he was making a generalised comment in relation to this discussion on command re-roll, which is 'a' roll and so is not supposed to be used alongside fast-rolling as the order of results or your rolls could influence you to/not-to spend the CP to re-roll, as opposed to seeing the entire result before deciding.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Genuinely think this is a non-problem, OP. For each perceived advantage to one side the other gets a trade-off advantage. Don’t worry about it. Your opponent had an advantage by seeing if all his hits hit before seeing if they wounded, allowing them to conserves CP. You get a trade off advantage in being able to strategise how to handle X number of saves. It’s genuinely a non-issue.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




United Kingdom

stato wrote:
Hey all,

Watching a lot of battle reports recently where players are having to roll dice one at a time for various reasons, damage per model, inceptor plasma expolding etc.

However players also seem happy to roll multiple hits simultaneously under the 'fast-rolling' rule (for a unit for example) and then pick out a miss or fail to wound for a command re-roll. Technically it seems the command re-roll is on 'a' hit or wound, and so hits should really be rolled one at a time so you would have to decide on each miss if it was worth the re-roll, without knowing if the following hits were going to hit.

While this might seem picky and rules lawyer-y (I completely agree) re-rolling a crucial wound roll when you realise your unit is 1 wound short to pip that last wound can be game changing. Note this also applies for saves as fast-rolling rule states damage should be applied and resolved one at a time, so using a command re-roll on a bunch of saves once youve seen that you only need one more save to live, doesnt seem technically right.

So just wanted to see what other players think / do.

1) just play command re-roll as pick any dice from a fast-roll group. Its not that important and as long as everyone does it this way it balances out.
2) as above but fast-roll all the other stuff too as life is too short and its only a game (my stance but im a rubbish player )
3) roll every dice one at a time
4) ive missed some comment somewhere in the rules and got it totally wrong




There are some really hardcore players out there who if you were to roll PSYCHIC TESTS 1 die at a time, they will insist you reroll because the rules say roll 2d6 at the same time, they are worried you are cheating and swapping to and from rounded die based on the result of the first die, e.g. rounded die can be used to roll lower and avoid perils.

it is about the imperfections of making rounded dice, they are not all rounded to the same extent meaning 1 rounded die will give more 6's (lucky die) and others more 1's (unlucky die).

i have even heard of players placing them in salt water to find the biased dice.

point i am making is some poeple might think you are cheating if you roll 1 at a time using your "lucky" die


SMASH  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

I mean, using cheat dice makes all rules questions a moot point. Cheating wastes both players’ time.

Assuming not cheating, you should roll a 2D6 roll together anyway as it doesn’t make sense to roll separately.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Its not true that you have to roll 2D6 at the same time. The rules say that you roll that many D6s, and add the dice results together.

DICE
In order to fight a battle, you will require some six-sided dice (often abbreviated to D6). Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the dice results together.


When a hardcore player tells me i have to roll 2D6 at the same time i will ask him to show me a citation which says i have to do so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/16 21:36:30


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 p5freak wrote:
Its not true that you have to roll 2D6 at the same time. The rules say that you roll that many D6s, and add the dice results together.

DICE
In order to fight a battle, you will require some six-sided dice (often abbreviated to D6). Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the dice results together.


When a hardcore player tells me i have to roll 2D6 at the same time i will ask him to show me a citation which says i have to do so.
Why would you want to roll them separate, though?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 JNAProductions wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Its not true that you have to roll 2D6 at the same time. The rules say that you roll that many D6s, and add the dice results together.

DICE
In order to fight a battle, you will require some six-sided dice (often abbreviated to D6). Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the dice results together.


When a hardcore player tells me i have to roll 2D6 at the same time i will ask him to show me a citation which says i have to do so.
Why would you want to roll them separate, though?

It's probably not a question of want, but more likely to just be an issue of timing or physical ability. How many times have you rolled a couple of dice, only for one of them to fall off the table or miss the dice tray? You pick up the one you dropped, then roll it again on the correct surface. That would be akin to rolling 2D6 one at a time.

Or, you could be a person with a physical disability and are literally unable to roll two dice at once. Let's not rule that out.

That said, I've never, ever encountered an opponent who has insisted that 2D6 must be rolled at the same time. If I did, I'd have to ask them where that was in the rules, and how close together must the dice be for them to consider it simultaneous (i.e. how small a fraction of a second they'd allow, since it's unlikely two dice would hit the surface at precisely the same time).

p5freak is correct, though, that 2D6 does not mean "roll two dice at exactly the same time". If circumstances require it, there should be no problem rolling one at a time.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

Sure. I agree with you, Cheex-it just seems like P5 is being ornery for the sake of it.

Your post does not come off that way.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 JNAProductions wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Its not true that you have to roll 2D6 at the same time. The rules say that you roll that many D6s, and add the dice results together.

DICE
In order to fight a battle, you will require some six-sided dice (often abbreviated to D6). Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the dice results together.


When a hardcore player tells me i have to roll 2D6 at the same time i will ask him to show me a citation which says i have to do so.
Why would you want to roll them separate, though?


Because i can.

   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 JNAProductions wrote:
Sure. I agree with you, Cheex-it just seems like P5 is being ornery for the sake of it.

Your post does not come off that way.


Because i can.


Case in point, I guess.
   
Made in gb
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




United Kingdom

 Cheex wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Its not true that you have to roll 2D6 at the same time. The rules say that you roll that many D6s, and add the dice results together.

DICE
In order to fight a battle, you will require some six-sided dice (often abbreviated to D6). Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the dice results together.


When a hardcore player tells me i have to roll 2D6 at the same time i will ask him to show me a citation which says i have to do so.
Why would you want to roll them separate, though?

It's probably not a question of want, but more likely to just be an issue of timing or physical ability. How many times have you rolled a couple of dice, only for one of them to fall off the table or miss the dice tray? You pick up the one you dropped, then roll it again on the correct surface. That would be akin to rolling 2D6 one at a time.

Or, you could be a person with a physical disability and are literally unable to roll two dice at once. Let's not rule that out.

That said, I've never, ever encountered an opponent who has insisted that 2D6 must be rolled at the same time. If I did, I'd have to ask them where that was in the rules, and how close together must the dice be for them to consider it simultaneous (i.e. how small a fraction of a second they'd allow, since it's unlikely two dice would hit the surface at precisely the same time).

p5freak is correct, though, that 2D6 does not mean "roll two dice at exactly the same time". If circumstances require it, there should be no problem rolling one at a time.


"shrugs"

just saying i have seen people insist on it, and heard from other players of tournament organisers backing them up, but i havn't seen that happen.

.....but most people don't care lol

...and i don't care beyond the fact that it's slow and annoying.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/17 00:26:16


SMASH  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 p5freak wrote:
Its not true that you have to roll 2D6 at the same time. The rules say that you roll that many D6s, and add the dice results together.

DICE
In order to fight a battle, you will require some six-sided dice (often abbreviated to D6). Some rules refer to 2D6, 3D6 and so on – in such cases, roll that many D6s and add the dice results together.


When a hardcore player tells me i have to roll 2D6 at the same time i will ask him to show me a citation which says i have to do so.


Some days it’s very hard to see any positive intent behind your posts…

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
 
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