Switch Theme:

40K Heading for Mass Effect Andromeda?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Been Around the Block





When I was first getting caught up on the lore that I missed for the last 20 years, one of the biggest shocks was finding out what happened to Warhammer Fantasy.

Then came the claims that the same thing would happen to 40K. At first I thought no way...now I'm not so sure.

Imagine this scenario:

Chaos consumes the Milky Way Galaxy, but in the process, a rift opens to a new galaxy and many of the factions are able to escape. This would set up an entirely new setting and the surviving factions would be very different. In short, it would be a great way to keep us buying the models.

What are your thoughts? Is this where we're headed? If so, what kind of factions would you want to see? Or more importantly, how will the old factions look in the new setting?
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





No, I don't think so. It seems rather silly right now. GW seems to have mediated a path such that they can update the factions and keep us buying models, while preserving the basics of the setting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/10 03:19:36


Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better.

-Roboute Guilliman
 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Desroying the Old World seems to have backfired in a way that GW went much more conservative with 40K than they might have planned.
Letting Chaos have a proper Victory for once was pretty nice actually, though on the tabletop nothing really changed aside from Primaris guys turning up who also look very similar to the "old" guys (Marines had the newest models even before Primaris...)
Every "new" faction in 40K existed in the background already, so there's nothing like the water elves or Zeppelin squats.

It would be a stretch for 40k to go the mass effect / Babylon 5 route, since the story stretches 60 Mio years already, but I could GW do some serious retcon and say: well actually the Necrons woke up every 60K years since then to reap the galaxy...
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





United States

The Fantasy to AoS changed needed to happen.40k, however is much more stable and I doubt they'll need to blow it up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/10 05:54:54


 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I'm not at all convinced it needed to happen. It could easily have been a more gradual change keeping the Old World, I can see why GW might not have wanted to do that and I respect the decision to do something new (though I wish they had ACTUALLY done something new rather than structure the new game around old characters from a "destroyed" world, because it really saps the meaning from the destruction to have all these characters keep showing up).

There was no imperative to blow up the Old World, just to do something about the format of the game being so incredibly expensive and model intensive that it was a barrier to entry. You could have done that without destroying the setting. Introducing Sigmarines or the various new factions would have been easy, and you could have advanced the timeline if you wanted to justify it and new versions of old models, like they did with 40K.

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Togusa wrote:
The Fantasy to AoS changed needed to happen.40k, however is much more stable and I doubt they'll need to blow it up.


It didn't "need to happen", the problem with WHFB wasn't the lore and was more to do with the lack of attention given to it. Nothing about the problems meant "destroy the setting and start over" was something that "needed" to happen.
   
Made in de
Experienced Maneater






Don't want to derail the thread any further, but here's my thoughts: Fantasy was stuck in time, used as a setting more than telling a story. AoS tells a story with a changing setting. It's been what, 200-300 years (?) on the timeline of AoS since its launch, and a lot of the story revolves not around single characters stuck in an unchanging setting, but the overall changing Realms. It's also reflected in the way it plays throughout its 3 editions: 2. Edition had lots of magic and cheap horde units because Nagash tore a hole in the Realms resulting in big war campaigns; 3. Edition has Alarielle unintentionally fething up the balance in Ghyran and Ghur, resulting in a focus on monsters and MSU in game. In Fantasy, changes to races or even inventing new races was nearly impossible. Every bland fantasy faction was already there, every new faction would raise the same cries that each 40k release does: NOOOO! Faction xyz (mine) needs new versions of existing models, we don't want a new faction (or the wrong faction).

I'm convinced they wanted to move 40k forward in time with the same intentions they had with AoS. They even advanced it by 200 (?) years and established the rift thing, but back-pedalled quite a lot since then. Either they got cold feet or 40k sales wasn't what they were expecting when they launched 8. Edition?
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






40k isn't going to have an End Times because the setting is big enough that a hundred massive conflicts can happen at once without the death of any on faction in its entirety. The invasion of Leviathan, the 13th Black Crusade, the 3rd War for Armageddon, the rise of the Necrons, and a renewed T'au expansion into Imperial space all happened at the same time and hundreds if not thousands of worlds burned, changed hands or became constant battlegrounds.
The Old World was one planet with a limited scope of what could be done whereas the Mortal Realms are a sandbox in the same way as 40k. We could argue again about why WHFB was changed but this isn't the place so let's not.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Da Boss wrote:
I'm not at all convinced it needed to happen. It could easily have been a more gradual change keeping the Old World, I can see why GW might not have wanted to do that and I respect the decision to do something new (though I wish they had ACTUALLY done something new rather than structure the new game around old characters from a "destroyed" world, because it really saps the meaning from the destruction to have all these characters keep showing up).

This. GW doesn't need to do other galaxies or wholesale resets, just move time scale to M44 or something. Emperor ascended as a god, Terra and the center of the Milky Way was obliterated in a huge warp storm as a result. Remains of the galaxy have roughly ring shape, with the Tau occupying eastern part, Imperium western and south, and Chaos north (mortals) and center (demons). There, done, no need to blow anything up.

 Gert wrote:
40k isn't going to have an End Times because the setting is big enough that a hundred massive conflicts can happen at once without the death of any on faction in its entirety. The invasion of Leviathan, the 13th Black Crusade, the 3rd War for Armageddon, the rise of the Necrons, and a renewed T'au expansion into Imperial space all happened at the same time and hundreds if not thousands of worlds burned, changed hands or became constant battlegrounds.

And it was really stupid and immersion breaking. If you looked where say Ultramarines, Blood/Dark Angels and Space Wolves were in .999 of M41, you had impression each chapter had like 50 companies, they were present at that many warzones. I forgot which character alone fought ~20 battles in this year on his own, somehow doing routes in warp space that canonically take months in a matter of hours to actually be everywhere on time. Indomitus actually taking 200 years was first good move GW made in decades, but then again some idiot without a sense of scale retconned it because galactic scale campaign can be ticked off in an afternoon, eh?
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Well, there are several very important differences between WHFB and 40K we need to consider.

WHFB started out as, and never really escaped from being, pretty Generic Fantasy. A mash up of fantasy and historical elements. In terms of the fate of the world, it was kind of sealed early on when they explained that with each Invasion, the Chaos Wastes permanently expanded its borders.

That was a narrative problem, as WHFB was a single world, called Mallus, obscure fact fans! And as each of the major nations was an army unto itself, shaking things up was always going to be difficult.

40K however is a whole Galaxy. This meant that Cadia could fall, and the ramifications wouldn’t nix the entire setting by default. Same with pretty much every planet/system barring Mars, Terra and the wider Sol System. And given how stupendously well defended that bit of the Galaxy is, there’s no one foe quite powerful enough to pull it off.

And so as a setting, it’s possible to blast huge chunks of it apart, without removing any one force from the game by default.

This is what we’ve seen them do with AoS. The Mortal Realms are (rather belatedly I’ll admit) described as functionally infinite. Constantly forming and dissolving. A cataclysm might upset the status quo, but not to the point where any playable race is wiped out.

And through the Ages of Myth and Chaos, they’ve got thousands upon thousands of years of “fill in the blanks” history to play with.

All of it impeccably copyrightable.

And especially for a Fantasy game, copyright is important.

See, we can reasonably infer WHFB wasn’t selling that well. And part of that will inevitably down to other companies being ultimately pretty free to produce “counts as” alternative minis. From cheap and cheerful ala Mantic’s earliest efforts, to frankly bonkers detailed Geet Big Gribbly Monsters.

But if we turn to AoS? It’s visually distinct. New monsters, roughly analogous to classic mythical beasts, but with a setting specific spin.

40K already, and always has had these perks in its favour. And because the Galaxy is so vast, it’s relatively easy to drop in new Xenos races (ref Tau, Dark Eldar and Necrons). You couldn’t really do that in WHFB. Yes there were in-background but unexplored things (ref Cathay, Ind and Nippon), but you’d need an explanation as to why those forces were in say, Hochland, not to mention how they got there without horrific initial losses. AoS, through Realmgatrs and the sheer vastness also brings that to the table.

40K simply doesn’t need an AoS reboot, because the AoS reboot was a casting off of very limiting shackles.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Irbis wrote:

And it was really stupid and immersion breaking. If you looked where say Ultramarines, Blood/Dark Angels and Space Wolves were in .999 of M41, you had impression each chapter had like 50 companies, they were present at that many warzones. I forgot which character alone fought ~20 battles in this year on his own, somehow doing routes in warp space that canonically take months in a matter of hours to actually be everywhere on time. Indomitus actually taking 200 years was first good move GW made in decades, but then again some idiot without a sense of scale retconned it because galactic scale campaign can be ticked off in an afternoon, eh?

Well as far as I'm aware it went as follows (these are not in chronological order):
Space Wolves
Spoiler:

3rd War for Armageddon - 5 Great Companies
Siege of Fenris - 5 Great Companies
Deployment to the Cadian Gate - All 12 Great Companies are gathered as part of a vengeance campaign post-Siege. Some survivors of this deployment join Celestine in journeying to Ultramar, then Terra.

Blood Angels
Spoiler:

3rd War for Armageddon - 3rd Company under Captain Tycho.
Diamor Campaign against the 13th Black Crusade - 4 Companies with Captain Karlaen and Astorath the Grim.
The Devastation of Baal - Remainder of the Chapter with Dante and Mephiston.

Ultramarines
Spoiler:

Siege of Fenris - 6th Company as part of a coalition of Chapters.
13th Black Crusade - Ultramarines Honour Company deployed. This was an adhoc formation consisting of veterans of Guillimans lineage who volunteered to defend Cadia.
Tarsis Ultra - The 4th Company defends Tarsis Ultra against the Tyranids.
Bloodborn Invasion of Ultramar - The entire Chapter is deployed to defend Ultramar from a Chaos invasion led by M'kar the Reborn.
Reclamation of Damnos - Calgar and Sicarius lead Ultramarines, Astra Militarum and Deathwatch elements in an effort to reclaim Damnos.
Ultramar Campaign - A revived Guilliman leads the Chapter in the defence of Ultramar for 7 months then embarks on the Terran Crusade.

Dunno man, all of this sounds pretty feasible to me.
Also, the Indomitus Crusade isn't over. It's now the ongoing narrative of 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/10 18:52:44


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

All of it impeccably copyrightable.

And especially for a Fantasy game, copyright is important.



This keeps getting said, but it really isn't how copyright works. It doesn't matter how distinct the theming or identity of a faction is, whether it's Steampunk fantasy Pirate Dwarves or Historical French Medieval Cavalry, you can't copyright ideas, themes, styles etc and only the design of the actual miniature itself is what's protected. Changing the miniatures to be more uniquely themed doesn't make them any more or any less copyrightable.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I still think it's likely that GW intended to have far more of an AoS-style reset for 8th edition 40K than we got, but they saw how much of a disaster the AoS launch was, they chickened out.
Certainly the rules side of the games were incredibly closely linked (and 40K was obviously intended to be more like AoS; without point costs, and with more 'accessible' core rules).

Potentially the Gathering Storm books which we got are actually a heavily/hastily edited variation of whatever the story was supposed to be.

I suspect that Primaris were supposed to have replaced firstborn Marines more fully, and that Ynnari were intended as a wider 'Eldar replacement' faction.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/10 19:24:39


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Togusa wrote:
The Fantasy to AoS changed needed to happen.40k, however is much more stable and I doubt they'll need to blow it up.


Why? the world of WFB was great and apart from some OP dragon riders players were largely happy with the game.

As far as I can tell the problem with it was there were very few GW trademarks and there weren’t many future revenue options.

   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






mrFickle wrote:
Why? the world of WFB was great and apart from some OP dragon riders players were largely happy with the game.

See that's interesting to me because the local WHFB scene when I got into the hobby was a lot smaller than with 40k and the local GW rarely filled out their Beginners club for WHFB, whereas 40k was always full. When our group started with the under 18's gaming days I don't think WHFB was ever played. The two people in our group that did play WHFB both complained that it was too expensive to get started and that there were a lot of wombo-combo hero upgrades that made the game a boring slog of heroes murdering whole armies or getting into never-ending fights.

As far as I can tell the problem with it was there were very few GW trademarks and there weren’t many future revenue options.

Kind of a big problem though isn't it? If one of your primary systems doesn't have a good future then you don't keep it around.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





The way I see it is this.

I'm old school. I got into WHFB because I had read Tolkien (way way before the movies) and Warhammer Fantasy was in many ways a riff on middle earth. Just look at the maps and you'll see the similarities. (40K came much later for me because I was also a sci fi fan, but Tolkien LOTR was always near and dear to me and it is to a LOT of people that are fans of the fantasy genre).

Then GW got the rights to produce Middle Earth. At that point, I knew WHFB was doomed. I just didn't realize how doomed.

In any case, I'm glad to hear the consensus is that the Milky Way Galaxy will continue to be the home of 40K! That said I wouldn't mind an "Andromeda" style expansion product down the line.



   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






 Togusa wrote:
The Fantasy to AoS changed needed to happen.40k, however is much more stable and I doubt they'll need to blow it up.

mmmmm highly debatable, fantasy was arguably the better of the 2 settings, but they did not do any support for fantasy so, its no surprise.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Kind of a big problem though isn't it? If one of your primary systems doesn't have a good future then you don't keep it around.


They needed to change the game, to make it more accessible, and streamline the bloated rules set. They didn't want to do that because they had a bug up their ass about selling large centerpiece models instead of playing a rank and flank wargame.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






 Dekskull wrote:
The way I see it is this.

I'm old school. I got into WHFB because I had read Tolkien (way way before the movies) and Warhammer Fantasy was in many ways a riff on middle earth. Just look at the maps and you'll see the similarities. (40K came much later for me because I was also a sci fi fan, but Tolkien LOTR was always near and dear to me and it is to a LOT of people that are fans of the fantasy genre).

Then GW got the rights to produce Middle Earth. At that point, I knew WHFB was doomed. I just didn't realize how doomed.

In any case, I'm glad to hear the consensus is that the Milky Way Galaxy will continue to be the home of 40K! That said I wouldn't mind an "Andromeda" style expansion product down the line.





So this is not the entire story LotR was not the cause of the death WHFB, if anything GW does not really want LotR to be the main line or succeed in any real capacity. This is because GW does not get nearly as much profit off of LotR as they do WHFB, because a cut of the profit has to go to both the tolkin estate, and new line cinima for using the likeness of the LOTR characters from the movies. They more or less just wanna keep the IP to prevent anyone from using it. That said, i do know its far more popular in the UK then the states, the states its basically none existent.

No war hammer FB died because it basically got abandoned, and got no updates to it after 8th edition which was a complete hot mess of an edition especially with spells. On top of that, it ran into the same issue that 40k ran into toward the end of the 7th, which was the start up cost to get into the hobby was insane. At the time near the death of WHFB, you were looking at around a 600 USD start up cost minimum not including painting, modeling and basing the damn things. So the draw to bring new people in was not there, it had a horrible price ceiling.

On top of that, the game and models had largely been unchanged for the last 20 years. So you had people who basically had their full armies and did not need to buy anything at all. So even the old guard did not buy anything anymore. On top of THAT, there is also the issue of how GW handled the global campains at the time and it left a really bitter taste in peoples mouth.

So it was a combination of high cost of entry, everyone basically had their models and did not need anything else, and getting no real support with new models, AND ontop of that GW fudging up the global campains and pissing a lot of people off.


The irony of all of this though, is that it was only after they killed WHFB with the ends times, freed up the IP, did WHFB get the love it needed. I would say that the vast majority of new players to GW in general, be it 40k, or AoS in the last 5 years has been directly due to whfb games such as total warhammer, and vermintide 1 and 2 being such a smash hit.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







The strongest evidence to me that they won't do this is that they chose to keep writing rules for oldmarines alongside Primaris instead of replacing them because they saw the amount of backlash against deleting things in Sigmar. If Sigmar had gone over better they would have done it already and we'd have Primaris-ized everything by now.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






WHFB genuinely suffered from increasing scale.

Now, contrary to popular claims that wasn’t solely down to GW wanting ever more cash. Sure that helped, but remember many people had been collecting for decades. Bigger collections call for bigger battles.

The error came in when the general perception was you needed to be playing at around 3,000 points.

Now it’s true that due to the game’s structure, and variance between the armies, you couldn’t really get a satisfying low point game in. I’d say 1,500 was a minimum, 1,000 at a pinch.

But when those around you are fielding much larger armies? That’s what people see the game as being. And that I firmly believe to be an inevitable result of Rank’n’Flank. A unit of 10 infantry simply doesn’t look as cool as a unit of 30.

8th Ed had some good ideas (letting Ogre sized fight in two ranks really helped them!), but sadly didn’t carry the day, because folk fixated on the Horde mechanic (having 18 Ironguts all fighting was hilarious and bloody good fun, but hardly price conducive to a newcomer).

I’ve noticed that AoS typically has a much lower model count, particularly for things like squitty little Gobbos. In WHFB, they might be 2 or 3 points each. AoS? Much more expensive because everything has a fixed to hit/to wound. This means every unit can realistically harm the next unit. So even the weediest single model is more dangerous than its WHFB take.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
WHFB genuinely suffered from increasing scale.

Now, contrary to popular claims that wasn’t solely down to GW wanting ever more cash. Sure that helped, but remember many people had been collecting for decades. Bigger collections call for bigger battles.

The error came in when the general perception was you needed to be playing at around 3,000 points.



But isn't this the same with current 40k? Scale creep and the general perception that the game MUST be played at 2000 points (which in terms of models is pretty close to 3000 points in 8th edition of WHFB) are real. Works for 40k though.

What was bad in 8th was the trend of building large blobs of infantries, like 40-50 for cheaper troops or up to 20-30 blobs of expensive elites. That killed the game IMHO. In 40k MSU are still encouraged which contributes to keep things more healthy. You don't need to buy 3-5 copies of the same kit just to field one optimized squad. Even if we play at high formats and huge centerpiece models are part of standard games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 09:51:50


 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






On AoS model count? Given I actually have the Gloomspite book and the 8th Ed Orcs and Goblins book, I’ll do a point comparison.

Well. I would if I knew where I’d put my Gloomspite book….it’ll be here somewhere, so I’ll come back to it.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Not AoS, I was talking about 40k. 2000 points of 9th edition of 40k are equal to 3000 points of WHFB 8th edition in terms of scale of the armies.

But you don't play huge blobs in 40k, there's no need to buy multiples of the same kit just to field one squad. That's the difference between the two games and why massive scale of armies isn't seen as bad by many players in 40k, the majority actually likes it.

 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






WHFB’s flaw with upscale games was that the bigger the units got, before 8th Ed brought in some fighting in ranks mitigation, the more you had to spend for models which were, effectively, just wound markers.

This saw the advent of thematic unit fillers. Larger display pieces in the middle of a unit to fill it out using fewer basic models, without the game looking crap. It wasn’t a perfect solution, as casualties taken could leave the owning player without enough models to show what was left.

40K has just never really had that issue. Sure, a Mob of 30 Orks might not all see combat if the complete unit charged in, but all had at least a chance of shooting and therefore taking part in the game. And if that blob squad was mass charged, pretty much all of them could happily end up in combat range.

Now this and my previous posts might read like I’m dumping on WHFB. I can only assure you I’m not. It’s a great game. But, it had in-built limitations GW never quite overcame.

Also, remembered my Gloomspite book is the e-book. Sample of points differences to whet your whistle?

40 Stabba Grots (spears etc) cost 260 points in AoS.

In 8th Ed WHFB (where I think Night Goblins were at their most expensive?) 40 similarly armed and equipped Night Goblins?

3 points each with Spear and Shield - 120.
45 points for Netters (free in AoS) - 165
30 points for full command - 195 points.

So there’s an immediate 65 point difference between the two. 110 points if you didn’t take Netters in WHFB

Mangler Squigs?

AoS (non-character version) that’s 240 points out your allowance.

WHFB? 65 points.

Quite the difference, I’m sure you’ll agree.

I’ll dig out my intended AoS Squig Heavy list and do a direct points comparison later if folk are interested. And I’ll try to stick to directly analogous units (so only models usable in both games).

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

Nope, I don't see them copying Privateer Press already literally doing that.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






From the title, I thought you meant that 40k would become basically 30k because all the xenos races would be taken out, except for one new, really gakky and dumb xenos race that sucks to look at and is literally too stupid and pathetic to live unassisted.

Let's say Gungans. All the various xenos races are deleted, also Sisters and Admech and probably Guard, leaving just Space marines and Chaos Space Marines (except that animation budgets have gone down so theyre just the same models and you have to paint them different) and the only other option is the new army. Gungans.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Backspacehacker wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
The Fantasy to AoS changed needed to happen.40k, however is much more stable and I doubt they'll need to blow it up.

mmmmm highly debatable, fantasy was arguably the better of the 2 settings, but they did not do any support for fantasy so, its no surprise.


Why do people keep repeating this nonsense about fantasy not being supported? During 8th especially probably saw the most dedicated support the game had in a long time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
 Dekskull wrote:
The way I see it is this.

I'm old school. I got into WHFB because I had read Tolkien (way way before the movies) and Warhammer Fantasy was in many ways a riff on middle earth. Just look at the maps and you'll see the similarities. (40K came much later for me because I was also a sci fi fan, but Tolkien LOTR was always near and dear to me and it is to a LOT of people that are fans of the fantasy genre).

Then GW got the rights to produce Middle Earth. At that point, I knew WHFB was doomed. I just didn't realize how doomed.

In any case, I'm glad to hear the consensus is that the Milky Way Galaxy will continue to be the home of 40K! That said I wouldn't mind an "Andromeda" style expansion product down the line.





So this is not the entire story LotR was not the cause of the death WHFB, if anything GW does not really want LotR to be the main line or succeed in any real capacity. This is because GW does not get nearly as much profit off of LotR as they do WHFB, because a cut of the profit has to go to both the tolkin estate, and new line cinima for using the likeness of the LOTR characters from the movies. They more or less just wanna keep the IP to prevent anyone from using it. That said, i do know its far more popular in the UK then the states, the states its basically none existent.

No war hammer FB died because it basically got abandoned, and got no updates to it after 8th edition which was a complete hot mess of an edition especially with spells. On top of that, it ran into the same issue that 40k ran into toward the end of the 7th, which was the start up cost to get into the hobby was insane. At the time near the death of WHFB, you were looking at around a 600 USD start up cost minimum not including painting, modeling and basing the damn things. So the draw to bring new people in was not there, it had a horrible price ceiling.

On top of that, the game and models had largely been unchanged for the last 20 years. So you had people who basically had their full armies and did not need to buy anything at all. So even the old guard did not buy anything anymore. On top of THAT, there is also the issue of how GW handled the global campains at the time and it left a really bitter taste in peoples mouth.

So it was a combination of high cost of entry, everyone basically had their models and did not need anything else, and getting no real support with new models, AND ontop of that GW fudging up the global campains and pissing a lot of people off.


The irony of all of this though, is that it was only after they killed WHFB with the ends times, freed up the IP, did WHFB get the love it needed. I would say that the vast majority of new players to GW in general, be it 40k, or AoS in the last 5 years has been directly due to whfb games such as total warhammer, and vermintide 1 and 2 being such a smash hit.


This is also wrong about not wanting Middle-Earth to succeed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/11 13:00:18


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Imagine if the put 40K through the end time and retired all of the players (customers) models and made you buy all new ones?

Never gonna happen and it just of been a huge gamble with WFB and I think they must have lost customers but they knew that A) they had 40K to keep the company alive and B) they could always bring the game out of retirement (which I believe is happened)

40K exists I. A world where anything could happen, in fact they have just turned the galaxy on it’s head with the dark imperium but they haven’t taken the opportunity they created for themselves. Probably because all they could see was dollar signs on primaris armour. But they could do anything to the setting, almost, without needing to remake the game. That’s the benefit of a setting the size of a whole galaxy and so far in the future all the tech is conceptual.

I don’t know where they could have taken WFB but if it was still going I would have a goblin army. Or an undead army.

There’s nothing about AoS that makes me want to start a whole army, just paint a few choice medals
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






mrFickle wrote:
Imagine if the put 40K through the end time and retired all of the players (customers) models and made you buy all new ones?

Never gonna happen and it just of been a huge gamble with WFB and I think they must have lost customers but they knew that A) they had 40K to keep the company alive and B) they could always bring the game out of retirement (which I believe is happened)

40K exists I. A world where anything could happen, in fact they have just turned the galaxy on it’s head with the dark imperium but they haven’t taken the opportunity they created for themselves. Probably because all they could see was dollar signs on primaris armour. But they could do anything to the setting, almost, without needing to remake the game. That’s the benefit of a setting the size of a whole galaxy and so far in the future all the tech is conceptual.

I don’t know where they could have taken WFB but if it was still going I would have a goblin army. Or an undead army.

There’s nothing about AoS that makes me want to start a whole army, just paint a few choice medals


i mean in 40k they are just doing it slowly.

I had a DW and RW army i loved, but the writting is on the wall, im never getting a new release or new lore about terminators or raven wing bike squads that are not primaris. so

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: