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Crisis protocol vs Knight Games - which minis are best?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Which superhero minis are better KG DC range or CP Marvel?
Knight Games - Batman/DC superheroes
Atomic Games - Crisis Protocol Marvel
Both fantastic
Both rubbish

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Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





Can't explain why but I’m getting very into superhero minis and have bought some
Crisis Protocol and some DC stuff from Knight Games. I’m super excited to start painting both but can’t decide which I think are better minis. Knight Games are certainly cheaper, 5-6 for the price of 2 CP. KG are also smaller (35mm vs 40 mm) and resin as opposed to plastic (CP). There’s more assembly work involves with CP (which I enjoy though it’s fiddly) but both are great miniatures so I’m curious what other people think. Which are best? Vote in the poll and share your thoughts
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Like any line.... it varies. I think Knight makes pretty great mini dioramas, but the material they've been using lately lets down the sculpts quite a bit. It's a very rubbery plastic that does a good job holding detail but has a TON of flash that is very hard to remove. I have had models where I just felt like they gave me a clump of rubber and told me to carve a model for myself. Before that was a line of resins that were just... far far too brittle and full of little bits waiting to snap off.

I really, really enjoy picking up MCP models each month. I don't think the raw artistry is quite there. There's more than a few awkward poses that don't quite follow anatomically, but they've steadily improved and the models are a joy to build and paint, in part because they're a little larger and take contrast really well.

Overall, I think they're both fantastic. If you were to ask me which models come from the best sculpted resin masters, I'd have to say Knight, but when it comes to the physical product that comes from my purchases, the nod goes to MCP.

I've also sadly tried to stop picking up Knight stuff to be perfectly honest. It's hard to get for one and their direct orders have been a complete nightmare even before the pandemic. I had an order take almost a year to resolve. Their games are also just always in a terrible state. Models are constantly replaced by new versions with almost the same but better rules and things often go for years without getting addressed. 3rd Edition Batman went ages without most factions having objectives and to this day Teen Titans don't really have functional rules despite being a pretty recent box set. I don't even know how DCU is supposed to function anymore. They keep putting out great sculpts, but there's just no game backing them up, while MCP has risen to probably be my favorite system at the moment.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

Knight makes the better looking models, though both companies do great jobs. However I'd prefer to work with the AMG Models, their material is so much better than the new awful plastic that Knight insists on using, I'd take their brittle resin over that any day.

Just off appearances I selected Knight though.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

MCP/Atomic Mass hands down. Knight minis has good concepts but poor execution (it would be better to say that they are small scale art pieces than proper gaming miniatures, unfortunately they don't try to market or sell them as such and the product suffers as a result in an effort to try to make them more attractive to gamers), between sculpting issues (their scale consistency is bad, its got better, but there are still cases of one model dwarfing or being dwarfed by another even though they are both ostensibly around the same height and in the same scale), poor material (soft rubbery resin, possibly siocast, pain to work with), poor QC (awful flash and mold lines, real PITA to clean up, often damages details, etc. when being removed), poor customer service (bad communication, long wait times to get product, getting after-sales service for parts replacement/refund if things are damaged/missing is a huge chore, etc.), etc. I can't recommend them in good conscience.

Also, MCP minis are generally just more useful, in that the game behind them is pretty good, whereas the "game" behind Knight models kinda only exists as a vague but ill-defined concept which might or might not be some semblance of playable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/18 19:45:57


CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

They've certainly taken a nose dive just before the release of 3rd Ed of Batman, the rules are just so bad now and the diorama models arent my favorite for play. More that was better in 2e and earlier.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Losing one of the creators of the game certainly didn't help matters. Certainly a sad situation.

2nd felt like the game had finally found its groove and really shows the strength of a good product vision. The Bat-Boxes were just an excellent all around way to get the game to players, only to almost immediately turn around and replace everything with 3rd.

3rd is one of the more radical changes to a game I've ever seen. I mean, I understand the desire. Batman was bad in the Batman game and there was honestly a TON of clunky elements that made the game slog at times. Still, 3rd was announced far ahead of time and then launched with basically no plan or support for 90% of the game. It has some great ideas but also undoes a lot of the refinements and quality of life work that had finally been fixed during 2nd. The decks feel like an overaction to Shadespire and honestly just make the game confusing for the most part.

The worst issue is simply that they've tripled down on releasing "new" models that are just resculpts with better rules instead of errata. I've had stuff invalidated before it arrived and while I kind of hold out hope that maybe the game will settle again and be worth my time, I've really stopped trying to keep up with it, sadly. I want to love it, but its just kind of a mess and somehow DCU is worse...
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

Have they made DCU worse? I only started it when 3e came out and liked it for the more simplified game that it was with the sort of pseudo-cinematic thing it had going for it.

But yeah, it was a big blow when they lost the creator and they just havent been able to recover. And 3e being rushed and incomplete really killed it in my area and I certainly stopped pushing to get people to play.

The Batboxes were great in 2e and I helped my FLGS sell quite a few of those, they were great entry points. Most people were able to get into 2e quite easily, we had bi-weekly events it was great.

Maybe I'll see if I still have all the 2e cards and play that with friends...
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





DCU isn't any worse, but its very hard to get a grip on. They've released some box sets that are good entry points, but the new edition appears to be a hard copy only rulebook that doesn't seem to be in wide circulation. A lot of the (not that) old models no longer seem to be available and a lot of character rules are similarly only known to people who have the physical cards. I have entire teams of the new box sets with no access to their rules because I bought them as Batman sculpts.

It's just such a weirdly unsupported game. Last time I chatted with anyone about it no one really knew what the point total was supposed to be. Like some people said it had been raised from 50 to 60 but that basic question stumping people makes it pretty clear no one is really playing.

What's always really maddened me is that there's no sense of a coherent game behind it. Just trying to build a team is awkward, trying to build to some point total with 8-16 point characters that often add up to things like 62 points with the cheapest character to cut dropping you to 53. Even the new box sets are really awkward. The GL box+Hal only adds up correctly by dropping one of two possible characters, one of which has a unique synergy with the other. Its all just a mess that Knight just uses as an excuse to make some collector sculpts for without any sense of structure to the game itself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/18 23:36:24


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

Yeah that's fair and I can see that. I havent taken a look at the book, in a while but Im not surprised that its got some issues in figuring out list building.

Neither is the box+character issue surprising even the first few Batboxes worked like that with having to drop a character or henchman here or there, looking at the initial release Arkham Militia in particular.

It would be really nice if they could find some focus for longer than 5 mintues (and not directed at the Harry Potter game that no one played in my area, or many areas according to people I spoke to) and actually smoothed things out, and then not completely destroy it.

To me it seems sometimes that with 3e they looked at WH40k 8e being simplified and decided to do that, and then didnt think more about it, or test it.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


To me it seems sometimes that with 3e they looked at WH40k 8e being simplified and decided to do that, and then didnt think more about it, or test it.


I haven't looked at 3e really, so I can't say for sure what influenced mechanically, but in terms of timing IIRC I think they had delusions of grandeur about the potential popularity of their game vs Marvel Crisis Protocol and thought that they could capture market share by launching a new edition to build hype/capture attention and compete directly with MCP.

Knight models is fortunate that DC/WB are notoriously hands-off with their licensing and seemingly don't put licensed product lines under a microscope to gauge performance vs competitors, otherwise Knight would probably lose the license the moment that it was realized how poor the product performance was vs MCP. Still, I suspect that if a larger studio approached DC/WB with a sales pitch for a better miniatures product that promised larger sales figures, Knight probably wouldn't get a chance to renew the license when it came up again.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

Oh yeah, it could have been MCP coming out as they launched with in a couple days of one another. But that combined with some need to try to simplify things while not really succeding makes me think they did have that 8e influence, but failed completely.

Rushed release of 3e, no testing, losing their lead, new material and their CS going massively down the drain really didnt help.

Like I was in the middle of several emails with them when the 3e change happened and they just completely stopped replying. Which in the long run was fine, I wasnt gonna run tournies for them with the mess 3e turned into.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Hard to say what caused 3rd to be released the way it was. It feels like an MCP reaction given it was announced between the MCP reveal at GenCon and the release of MCP in November and then kind of kicked out the door on Christmas morning a month later. There really wasn't product ready to be sold and yet... its pretty clear that it was a launch point for a new product line. Not just the new material, but also the push towards full on dioramas with tiny characters occupying huge bases. These products were coming, MCP or not.

Why they thought they could get away with shifting the entire game to a card driven objective deck and then not provide objectives for any of the factions is a mystery though. IDK if they really thought the 8th edition codex style would work for them or what, but I've never seen a quicker way to destroy a player base than to tell the majority they don't have any real rules at all and oh by the way when you get rules we'll also be replacing all your models with almost but not quite the same versions. It's really, really bizarre.

3rd itself is just such a weird game. It's kind of hamstrung by Knight's refusal to ever redo a character without a new sculpt. It basically abandons a ton of how the game used to work but then has to cram in purpose to things like the Strength stat and Willpower/Stun/Blood damage in really convoluted ways to maintain backward compatibility with 2nd edition models they won't ever update. It's largely easier to just start over with new stuff only, which seems to be the case every year or so when it comes to this game.

Unfortunately at this point its pretty clearly intentional. The whole 3rd edition starter comes with clear resculpts of the GCPD officers with new rules. The malicious thing about them is that their abilities have been mixed in ways that make them not quite compatible with how the old characters looked, which feels like a conscious attempt to dissuade players from just using the sculpts they have.

I think the answer to everything is just that Knight is a company in way over their heads in terms of game design. Their passion is clearly in sculpting but they just don't have the resources for holistic game design. They make rules for their new models, assign it a point cost based on how good they think it is compared to other models.... probably playtest it a bit, but there doesn't seem to be much thought about the game its going into and once in the wild, its basically abandoned for the next new shiny.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

Yeah I agree with that assessment, the weird changes do seem to be to push people out of using their older stuff and its back fired. Anyone I know that still has any inclination of playing the game just wants to play 2e and I have no issue with that, it was solid.


The diorama bases, are weird, on the one hand I like 3 of them, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. But those were DCU models and that display seemed like a better fit there if not still excessive.

Having Commissioner Gordon walking around with the Bat signal is just weird.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 LunarSol wrote:
...I think the answer to everything is just that Knight is a company in way over their heads in terms of game design. Their passion is clearly in sculpting but they just don't have the resources for holistic game design. They make rules for their new models, assign it a point cost based on how good they think it is compared to other models.... probably playtest it a bit, but there doesn't seem to be much thought about the game its going into and once in the wild, its basically abandoned for the next new shiny...


Exactly this. I don't have much experience of the Batman game but I bought the HP starter because I was amused that it existed, read the rules, and I'm not convinced whoever wrote them knew what a minis game was.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I get the impression HP was designed as a dungeon crawler during that era where everyone was trying to perfect the impossible expectations of the genre (I want a complex maze, with in depth tactical position based combat against AI driven monsters and meaningful character growth in 90 minutes). I think similar to Imperial Assault they also wanted to cater to the demands of a 1v1 army based game with the line and really failed to accomplish either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/20 18:46:54


 
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





Wow - this opened a can of worms. I had no idea that the DC games were such a mess. What is it about DC that it always goes that way. The comics have had endless restarts, the films can' seem to pull it together and the same is, apparently true of the miniature games. Marvel on the other hand is so much more coherent all round. It's odd that's how it is.

I don't play either of these games myself. I'm just in it for the painting.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Yeah, I really don't like to complain about games. Never want to be that guy. I own over a dozen systems simply because I'd rather play everything with cool people than put anyone's favorite down. Knight has just... really gone above and beyond to fail me and while I'm super keen to promote BMG and all its potential, I just can't anymore. Orders that have taken nearly a year to resolve, charges I've just had to eat and take a loss and worst of all a game that just continually leaves players in limbo with a focus on obsolescence that even GW couldn't fathom. I don't think there's another company that's disappointed me like Knight, which sucks because they do make some really pretty toys.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

Yeah, I hear that, and what makes it worse is that the game was really good and their CS was better.
   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





MCP goes a bit far with the tactical rocks for my tastes. Of course if there's a genre where it fits most it would be Supers, but some of them like Black Cat have the GW problem of being dynamic for the sake of looking dynamic.

I prefer the Knight Games models but their more grounded feel, but I can see why people say they come off more as diorama figurines than tabletop playpieces.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I know people love to mock the tactical rocks in MCP but you're saying Knight is better? Like this is a line with an entire subtheme of tactical chairs, at least tactical sound stages, a tactical bat signal, tactical Lazerus Pit and more tactical building wall segments than I can count.
   
Made in gb
RogueSangre



West Sussex, UK

If you are intending to play the game then I would definitely go with Crisis Protocol.

Knight models have a habit of relaunching games and don't provide rules for the old models (at best they may rerelease them and provide the cards online but you still need cards from the packs as well).

Crisis Protocol is currently going through a rebalance but all the old models will be provided with free cards online and a purchasable card pack will also be released for those who want them printed professionally.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Knight just unveiled the Red Lantern Corps. Models are super cool, but the complete and total lack of game design has me angry enough to get a ring from them. 52 points total with the lowest being 9? What am I actually supposed to do with these models? The more I try to force them to work the more insane the whole thing drives me. Just... just.... no. Just no.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Knight games produce better looking models in my opinion.
That being said, MCP paint up easier and look better with basic paint jobs, and despite one or two fiddly models are easier to put together, oh and have practically no mold lines.
Game wise MCP is miles better than anything done by Knight models.

I've been playing a while, my first model was a lead marine and my first White Dwarf was bound with staples 
   
Made in us
RogueSangre



West Sussex, UK

As of a few months ago Warner are no longer allowing guns to be included with any toys apparently. This includes the miniatures. If you look at the models released this year, there are no guns included with some very awkward poses to try to imply a gun without showing one (hand inside jacket for example). I'm for gun control and making them less attractive to children but so much of the comic source material is gun focused it makes it hard to not include.
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





Orem, Utah

Knight Models makes some really great minis. I don't like them better than Atomic Mass, but I'm not sure that I like them less either. Both lines are really good.

I prefer to play the MCP rules set over any Knight rules set.

 
   
 
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