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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






How do!

Evil and satirical hats on folks, as in this thread we look into SciFi films and shows of old, and look for clear instances where Earth or the stand-in goodies probably deserved the evil unleashed on them.

Example? Buck Rogers in the 25th Century. This is from an early episode, in which delegates, including The Really Obvious And I Think Known baddies are invited to peace talks. And what does Earth do?

Put on a Roller Disco, complete with god awful fashion, god awful music and frankly ludicrous choreography. I mean….just look at it and tell me we didn’t have it coming, and deserved everything they threw at us?

You don’t make friends with Salad. And forcing some poor intergalactic despot to watch Roller Disco is just begging for a stellar kicking.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/20 10:26:42


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Made in gb
Executing Exarch





The Mysterons

A "misunderstanding" over a spy drone isn't really grounds for humans dakkaing the chuff out of their city


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






That is a very good point. The Earthmen totally picked that particular fight.

I mean, it’s not even justifiable. At all.

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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in de
Experienced Maneater






The Aliens from the Ender series by Orson Scott Card.
Spoiler:
The aliens have a hive mind, losing one of their ships is like breaking a finger nail. So they killed some of the Earth ships thinking we were the same. As retaliation, they get completely eradicated. Bit of an overreaction.


The AI from Hyperion series by Dan Simmons
I don't really remember what point it had, but I thought that it was a good one.
   
Made in us
Potent Grey Knight Librarian





Fort Worth, TX

Baron Klaus Wulfenbach from Girl Genius.
The motto of his Pax Transylvania sums up his approach to keeping peace in Europa: "Don't make me come over there".

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

The future is disco; I’d sponsor their entry to the United Federation of Planets. I’d sponsor it hard.

Anyway…

Walter Peck from Ghostbusters. He had a point, and we should all be glad he was as determined as he was to make sure these secretive paranormalists were not actually harming NYC with their unlicensed nuclear accelerators.

   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential




dorset

Lex luxor.

given the number of alternate universes that Man of Steel has decided to stop being nice, taken over the planet and ruled with an iron fist (the Injustice setting, the Justice Lords, the crime syndicates Ultra-man, etc), his concerns about what to do if "our" superman turned evil stop being totally paranoid and start becoming increasingly reasonable........

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
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Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

xerxeskingofking wrote:
Lex luxor.

given the number of alternate universes that Man of Steel has decided to stop being nice, taken over the planet and ruled with an iron fist (the Injustice setting, the Justice Lords, the crime syndicates Ultra-man, etc), his concerns about what to do if "our" superman turned evil stop being totally paranoid and start becoming increasingly reasonable........


In Red Son, he defeats Superman and makes a utopia out of earth at the end. Quick, somebody stop that madman!

   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






I’d even argue Lex has a point even when it is The Big Blue Boy Scout Supes.

After all? We really only have Superman’s word for it that he’ll never just decide “right. You bloody will stop fighting, because I’m going to make you stop” etc.

Lex is wise to look for ways Superman might be brought low. Because you never know when it might become a necessity.

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Made in gb
Executing Exarch





As much as the Crisis cameo irks the rabid fanboys I still like to head-canon that Smallville Clarke beat and possibly saved his Lex by giving up his powers, without having to worry about that What if Lex becomes reasonable

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential




dorset

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’d even argue Lex has a point even when it is The Big Blue Boy Scout Supes.

After all? We really only have Superman’s word for it that he’ll never just decide “right. You bloody will stop fighting, because I’m going to make you stop” etc.

Lex is wise to look for ways Superman might be brought low. Because you never know when it might become a necessity.


Lex, or at least the current version of lex, is kinda the lampshade hanging (to borrow the tv tropes name for it) on a deep seated problem with most superhero media, which is that this bunch of self appointed, superpowered persons, operating without oversight or accountability, have declared themselves the final arbiters of Right and Wrong, and have the means to enforce their interpretation of that onto the populace at large, and it is only by good fortune that they share the same morals as we do.

What could we do, honestly, if superman decided that none of us could be trusted to run the county, given our poor track record, and declared himself president of the USA? Nothing, or almost nothing. Our only recourse would be to ask other superhumans to remove him, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" style. What if they refuse?

It works with the superhero media becuase we KNOW, deep down, that superman is Just Too Morally Good to do it, but still, we recognise its a problem, and Lex luthor is that dissonance given voice, and dealt with by making him so extreme in his views that the threat of superman's rule seems a lesser evil.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1500 pts Watch Company Rho 1000pts
 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Or potentially actually worse, if Superman actively endorsed a given political party or candidate.

There’s a decent 2000AD strip about Superheroes taking over, but I can’t for the life of me remember it’s name. Checking Hachette, it’s called “The Ten Seconders”. I can heartily recommend it. It also predates The Boys, and for my money is the superior take on it.

I’d also argue any Cowboy film where the baddies are Native Americans, because, y’know, historical context.

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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Also look for The Authority, by Wildstorm, particularly the Coup d'etat storyline and Revolution mini-series (from memory).

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

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Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Les Etats Unis

For about the past fifteen years or more, most comic depictions of Lex Luthor have had it so he's explicitly lying about only wanting to police Superman for humanity's good. It's generally stated that Luthor is actually just jealous that Superman is a morally superior person than him despite his godlike powers, proving that despite Luthor being the smartest human being on the planet, Superman is better than him in both the eyes of the public and himself. It's a bit of a shaky motivation, sure, but it's still there.

From what I've seen of them, the Rocket Reds are usually billed as the "real" group concerned with possible superhero tyranny, but since they're controlled by the Russian government, the comics usually depict them as misguided at best.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







The Alliance from Firefly. All they seem to want to do is try to lift poor grubby backwaters out of poverty, and all they get is ingratitude.

Regarding the roller disco monstrosity, part of it might be down to the super limited space they are trying to roller skate in. I’m surprise none of the delegates lost teeth in the spins!

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
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Made in us
Master Tormentor






St. Louis

 Flinty wrote:
The Alliance from Firefly. All they seem to want to do is try to lift poor grubby backwaters out of poverty, and all they get is ingratitude.

I mean, yeah, Firefly is Confederate apologia. Of course the Alliance is right.
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


There’s a decent 2000AD strip about Superheroes taking over, but I can’t for the life of me remember it’s name. Checking Hachette, it’s called “The Ten Seconders”. I can heartily recommend it. It also predates The Boys, and for my money is the superior take on it.
.


That sounds really interesting, I shall check it out

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The future is disco; I’d sponsor their entry to the United Federation of Planets. I’d sponsor it hard.

Anyway…

Walter Peck from Ghostbusters. He had a point, and we should all be glad he was as determined as he was to make sure these secretive paranormalists were not actually harming NYC with their unlicensed nuclear accelerators.


Walter Peck worked for the EPA, not the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and decided to shut down the containment facility against all the advice from everyone else onsite - including the electrician. If he'd turned up and said "we're investigating this new business for potential hazards; here's a court order for your records and witness statements", that's one thing. Instead, he turns up, insults the proprietor and threatens to shut them down for no reason.

I'll pick the inhabitants of almost any dungeon in a D&D campaign - all those goblins, kobolds, bugbear or whatnot, getting on with their lives when a load of murderous thugs break in and slaughter them all.

And in a similar vein to native Americans in westerns, the North Vietnamese in 'nam films.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Soren in Star Trek Generations. Surely it would have been easier for everyone concerned if, after discovering what he wants, they called him up and offered to just fly him into the ... thingy instead of trying to prevent him and getting Kirk killed and the Enterprise destroyed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 16:17:19


 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




I'll pick the inhabitants of almost any dungeon in a D&D campaign - all those goblins, kobolds, bugbear or whatnot, getting on with their lives when a load of murderous thugs break in and slaughter them all.

And in a similar vein to native Americans in westerns, the North Vietnamese in 'nam films



Eh. Traditionally, those dungeon inhabitants 'getting on with their lives' means raiding and killing villagers and settlements. Adventurers are more part of a cycle of Iron Age reprisal raids than anything like westerns or Vietnam.

Both sides accept casual killing as a response to (ineffectually) stop the other side from raiding next year (or next season), or are trying to get some of their food and supplies back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 16:28:22


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Everytime I see a Robin Hood movie I think:
OK, to be real here, I know that King Richard got caught returning from the holy land and kept for ransom somwhere in Germany (I think), meanwhile partying and having a good time. And I know that the ransom was eventually paid. So Prince John with his taxes and everything, as much as he was hated was maybe "just" trying to get the money to bring back the king everybody wanted. And when Richard returned he realized everybody was angry because of the taxes, so he needed a scapegoat, Byebye John.
And in this line of thought: Robin was just a robber baron with a good sense of timing who knew when to switch sides. So when Richard declared John to have done bad in pressing the taxes out of the people, the Robber Baron fighting John must obviously have been the good guy, right?
Also "Robbing the rich and giving the poor" seemed to do pretty little to tackle the overall problem. It might have helped the villages immediatly in Robins range of influence, but it changed nothing of the government pressing out the people of england...

It's maybe less of "the baddies had a point" and more a "their point was better than the one of the goodies".

~6300 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential




dorset

always worth pointing out that the "prince john" of the robin hood stories is better know to history as John I, King of England as it acended to the throne of his brother Richard the Lionheart when Richard died on campaign in France (he spent, at most 12 months of his 11 year reign as "King of England" actually in England) about 5 years after the events that robin hood fictionalised (or rather the time frame those events are "supposed" to have happened, cos total fiction). Oh, and like his brother and the rest of the high nobiliy, spoke french as a first language, and its not clear if they spoke english at all (or rather, we have no records that explicitly state he did)

he didnt exactly do well on throne, since he was the king the Magna Carta was signed against (which was mainly a series of gripes by the barons against the king than the first seed of western democratic tradition like it gets sometimes gets portrayed)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 20:37:30


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1500 pts Watch Company Rho 1000pts
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Robin Hood always fun because modern audiences don't grasp the concept of 'outlaw' as it existed at time (12th century- ish).

It doesn't mean 'bad man who broke the law.' Outlaw doesn't mean out side the law as in 'lawbreaker,' it means 'outside the _protection_ of the law.' Like exile or banishment, it means everyone washes their hands of you, and you can't expect anything.

Its not about having a price on your head, it means _anyone_ can walk up to you and stab you in the street and no one will care. Your friends and family can't appeal on your behalf and no one can protect you. It was often considered a fate worse than death, because you've lost access to everything- you have nothing to pass on to children, any agreements, pacts or titles are gone, and no one in the world owes you anything anymore. Summary execution was often considered less cruel, and less tyrannical.

----
Of course part of the fun was in the older versions, Robin wasn't ever a noble (a yeoman instead), and the stories didn't give a dead weasel about the King, John, ransoms or taxes. All that was added much later.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in de
Powerful Ushbati






Since OP is asking about sci-fi specifically, I'm thinking Stargate Atlantis. Particularly the trial episode in one of the later seasons. The Earthlings come to Pegasus, open Pandora's Box and screw up the balance of power in the galaxy big time, set about fixing it by finding more boxes and opening them as well because why not, and bring about the realistic threat of extinction of the entire galaxy's human population, which at least partially comes to pass. The resolution of the trial is for them to cheat their way out of their just conviction and sentence. Way to go, Earthlings! Good guys for the win!

About Buck Rogers, two things come to mind.

First, you come to a post-apocalyptic backwater, it might be a good idea to just humor their quaint traditions. They don't know any better. You don't nuke the hillbillies because you had a bad night with 'shine and Cotton Eye Joe.

Second, like most things out of the 70s it's prudent to assume that Buck Rogers is a result of ample substance abuse, and it is not fair to watch or judge it sober.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






@ Robin Hood: in that case I have to conceed poor history knowledge, mea culpa. But the general point came across. A bit of doubt if rooting for Robin is really the way to go

~6300 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







No, ive seen Robin Hood… he was Definately a machine gun tacticool arrow launcher infiltration dude.

Can’t beat prince of thieves… as a film at least. I wouldn’t trust it on historical, or even geographical, acccuracy

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
Lex luxor.

given the number of alternate universes that Man of Steel has decided to stop being nice, taken over the planet and ruled with an iron fist (the Injustice setting, the Justice Lords, the crime syndicates Ultra-man, etc), his concerns about what to do if "our" superman turned evil stop being totally paranoid and start becoming increasingly reasonable........


In Red Son, he defeats Superman and makes a utopia out of earth at the end. Quick, somebody stop that madman!


He should work with Dr. Doom, whose Doomworld is the only functional utopia in the Marvel multiverse.

   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

Honestly both of the Incredibles movies have this really bad. Like so bad. The second movie even more so than the first. Like, the bad guys are bad guys but from a 'reasons' level both Syndrome and Screenslaver had very good points about everything wrong with superheroes and the world of superheroes. Things that both movies bring up and then just kind of gloss over with nary a care because I guess the moral of the films is that might makes right feth those guys we have power and we do what we want or something. Honestly, I think both these films are actually really fethed up as kids movies. They teach all the wrong lessons while pretending to be wholesome family films.

Even better, the entire Kobali storyline from STO.

I'll hide this in spoilers if anyone cares that much but otherwise check it because holy gak is it a doozie!

Spoiler:
So in this storyline, the players go to Kobali Prime to help protect the peaceful and weird aliens the Kobali from invasion by an aggressive alien species, the Vaadwaur. The Kobali are neat/weird because their reproduction cycle involves turning dead corpses into living Kobali who then age back wards. They were not one of Voyager's better aliens honestly. Even the episode that introduced them had serious moral wtf going on.

And the tradition continued because by the end of this storyline, the Kobali look like the outright villains. Turns out their planet is a tomb world filled with Vaadwaur in cryogenic stasis. The Kobali are holding those people hostage, turning them into Kobali when they die, and refusing to let the Vaadwaur rescue their people. Players kind of hate this storyline because we get no choice but to support the Kobali despite what we learn at the end and by the end the Kobali look like the bad guys and the Vaadwaur are just trying to rescue their people from an alien race that is happily letting them die for the sake of its own reproductive cycle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 23:27:31


   
Made in ca
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Wasn't Alan Moore's run on Miracle Man all about superheroes taking over the planet? Been awhile since I read any of them. It predates a lot of the evil Superman type stories*.



*That weren't silly Silver Age type stories where they couldn't really explore the ideas in any reasonable capacity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
the Incredibles


You mean Watchmen Light?

Ozymandius did nothing wrong!

Which reminds me.

Magnus did nothing wrong!

Alpharius may or may not have.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/22 04:18:41


Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






It's not a film, but: the Geth/Quarian Conflict in Mass Effect 3.
The Geth did not actively pursue attack the Quarians after their revolution, which started when the Quarians tried to genocide them instead of integrating the AIs they created into their society. And then when they have the opportunity the Quarians come back to "reconquer their homeworld" and the first thing they do is destroying the Geths Dyson Sphere around the sun that was housing Gethprogramms (So a civilians target) basically trying to genocide them again.

As much sympathy as I have for indivual Quarians, it felt strange how the game tried to make you root for them. The Geth just wanted to live freely (At least that's how I saw it, feel free to disagree

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/22 08:07:10


~6300 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Leicester

 Pyroalchi wrote:
It's not a film, but: the Geth/Quarian Conflict in Mass Effect 3.
The Geth did not actively pursue attack the Quarians after their revolution, which started when the Quarians tried to genocide them instead of integrating the AIs they created into their society. And then when they have the opportunity the Quarians come back to "reconquer their homeworld" and the first thing they do is destroying the Geths Dyson Sphere around the sun that was housing Gethprogramms (So a civilians target) basically trying to genocide them again.

As much sympathy as I have for indivual Quarians, it felt strange how the game tried to make you root for them. The Geth just wanted to live freely (At least that's how I saw it, feel free to disagree


The first time I played ME3 I accidentally walked into the reconciliation path for the Quarian / Geth war; apparently it’s quite a narrow path to follow, but at every decision point I’d avoided the partisan bs and gone with the “you both have a right to exist” option. I remember sitting for about 5 minutes staring at the screen on the final decision wheel, because I knew that if I picked the wrong one I’d lose either Tali or Legion and I couldn’t bear the thought of that. Despite the controversy around it, I love that game for making me feel so deeply about those characters and races. I’m guessing it felt so real because the Q/G war is exactly the kind of tragic misunderstanding driven by fear and prejudice that happens all too often in the real world.

DS:80+S+GM+B+I+Pw40k08D+A++WD355R+T(M)DM+
 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
 
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